United States 2nd Amendment Legal Cases and Law Discussion

Morphic Tide

Well-known member
Of course, since this is about who can and can't have guns and there's more of the structure of the law against them, they're liable for a very nasty time. Because there are so very many parts of it they have to go to the Judiciary for. And also the possibility that Congress flips this year, which needs rather low margins to translate to "utterly demolish the openly admitted rogue agency" in short order because it's a perfect choice for legitimate bipartisan effort because you do not say this shit out loud.

Furthermore, The Boog May Begin. By way of shooting the declared-Unconstitutional actors dead on the spot.
 

Abhorsen

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The DoJ 'Respectfully Disagrees' with SCOTUS's decision...aka they will help state's enforce laws the new SCOTUS test deems unConstitutional.

Not honestly a big issue. Yes, the DOJ frequently has an opinion that differs from SCOTUS, that isn't new (for example, anytime they lose a case at SCOTUS). They aren't saying they are going to try to violate it or anything, just a generic announcement that they disagree. This is a nothing burger, and not something to worry about.

The key thing they are saying they are going to try to use legally available tools. That's the relevant part here. They aren't announcing anything other than "We don't like this". No duh they don't, but they also said they'd suck it up.
 

Ixian

Well-known member


The DoJ 'Respectfully Disagrees' with SCOTUS's decision...aka they will help state's enforce laws the new SCOTUS test deems unConstitutional.


Well, I can't say the Andrew Jackson play was entirely unexpected.

EDIT: On second thought, perhaps it isn't as bad as I'd first assumed.
 

Battlegrinder

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The courts loose power if they get rid of red flag laws.

Eh....technically yes, but that's a different issue. This is about the courts ruling yes or no on you getting your weapons back after they're seized, not about getting rid of the law itself. And the court doesn't care if you get your weapons back or don't.

Are you joking? The government practices civil asset forfeiture on the regular. Even if a specific court where you try to get your guns back isn't in on it someone they know is.

Courts don't get funding from civil asset forfeiture, and red flag laws aren't the same as CAF anyway.

They don't show up and arrest you, they show up and confiscate your firearms and then give you a court date, but If all the accused firearms were lost in an unfortunate boating accident, and the accused refused to speak with the police (completely legal if they are not detaining/arresting you, I'm not seeing what they can actually do if they don't find the firearms.

They show up with a court order to seize your firearms, which means you're expected to surrender them to the police. If you try to claim you lost your weapons, the cops A) won't believe you and B) will demand proof, and once you fail to provide that proof they'll arrest you for contempt of court.

It's called a Court Order, not a court suggestion. Compliance with it is mandatory.
 

Ixian

Well-known member
Eh....technically yes, but that's a different issue. This is about the courts ruling yes or no on you getting your weapons back after they're seized, not about getting rid of the law itself. And the court doesn't care if you get your weapons back or don't.



Courts don't get funding from civil asset forfeiture, and red flag laws aren't the same as CAF anyway.



They show up with a court order to seize your firearms, which means you're expected to surrender them to the police. If you try to claim you lost your weapons, the cops A) won't believe you and B) will demand proof, and once you fail to provide that proof they'll arrest you for contempt of court.

It's called a Court Order, not a court suggestion. Compliance with it is mandatory.

EDIT: In hindsight, I don't like the original tone of this post. It was insulting. I apologize battlegrinder, that was rude of me.
 
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Emperor Tippy

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It's certainly a better outcome than could reasonably have been feared.

Of course, the real test comes in implementation.

The core, relevant, holding is that the test is, essentially, "does the conduct in question fall under the plain text of the second amendment?". If the answer to that question is yes then the burden shifts to the government to show that their restriction is reasonable under a historical analysis.

It's hard to credibly argue that most gun regulations don't fall under the plain text. Most of them purport to regulate or restrict the keeping or bearing arms and so the default is that they are presumptively unconstitutional. The government then has to show that the specific regulation/restriction in question is historically reasonable.

A great many courts being notably anti-gun, I expect a lot of inventive work on the part of judges to justify those regulations.

I also expect that you will have more neutral and/or pro-2A judges tossing regulations and thus creating circuit splits that get cases to SCOTUS much more rapidly than they have been over the past decade.

Magazine restrictions, "assault weapons" bans, and a lot of permitting/registration restrictions won't pass the test. Silencer restrictions, if the court (reasonably) holds that they are "arms" and thus the Second Amendment is applicable also probably far.

I wouldn't attack the NFA outright until the magazine and assault weapons cases have already been fully litigated. And I also wouldn't go for a wholesale tossing of the NFA. The best approach there is for an FFL to submit an application to add a newbuilt copy of a restricted firearm to the NFA registry and, when denied, sue. If an identical weapon is already on public sale in the US and has been for decades then it gets a lot harder to argue that the new one can't be sold on the same terms.

Then you attack state laws restricting the possession of NFA covered items. Those restrictions won't pass any remotely honestly done historical analysis.

Another solid attack is on age restrictions.
 
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BlackDragon98

Freikorps Kommandant
Banned - Politics
question for the yankees.

what is the whole red flag law thing?

I've heard its actually just encouragement for states to pass red flag laws but they can't actually pass a US wide red flag law themselves.

And since most pro-gun states are already against this stuff, isn't this just a dead letter in most places?
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
question for the yankees.

what is the whole red flag law thing?

I've heard its actually just encouragement for states to pass red flag laws but they can't actually pass a US wide red flag law themselves.

And since most pro-gun states are already against this stuff, isn't this just a dead letter in most places?
A Red Flag Law allows the authorities to confiscate your firearms if they think you might be a danger to yourself or others.

As with many such laws, the devil's in the details. The idea looks sound but a brief examination shows that everything is based on opinions, there is no burden of proof, the person being flagged has no right to counsel nor to face their accusers nor even to know they've been accused. It's got so much potential for abuse it puts everybody on edge, ranging from "Angry Ex used it to get at her boyfriend" to "is this going to work like May-Issue did where your fitness to own your own gun is directly proportionate to how much money you've donated to the Mayor/Sherrif/DA's campaign fund?" to "Sorry, the police somehow 'lost' your half-million-dollar rare gun collection while it was in custody so it won't be returned, also we have qualified immunity to any recourse you could possible have in this matter."

Oklahoma has passed a specific anti-red-flag law making all such laws automatically illegal in the state.

The problem with "Pro-Gun States" is that we're increasingly seeing Rhetoric about how it's the pro-gun-states are the problem and the only reason gun control doesn't work in all those hellish dystopian Democrat-run cities is that there are too many guns nearby (which have a much lower crime-rate suggesting that it's not the guns but the culture but that part needs to be kept quiet). They really don't like how you can put gun control and pro-gun states side by side and see the obvious and blatant results so they're making moves against it.
 
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bullethead

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Well, now there's a lawsuit against the ATF's new rule thing on frames/receivers:
Article:
At bottom, the Final Rule represents omnibus legislation by a federal administrative agency, seeking to broadly rewrite federal gun control laws to suit a radically anti-gun political agenda.

The Final Rule will sow chaos within large segments of the firearms community, from both the perspective of the industry and the perspective of consumers (law-abiding gun owners), including the individual and the members and supporters of the organizational plaintiffs herein.

The breadth of the Final Rule is massive in the changes to federal firearms law that it imposes on the American people by regulation (rather than by legislation). The Final Rule represents perhaps the most sweeping gun control scheme since the Gun Control Act of 1968, incorporating many of the restrictions found on the legislative wish lists of the nation’s most radical anti-Second Amendment groups, but restrictions which Congress has never seriously considered (much less enacted).

These changes cannot be viewed in isolation, as the changes imposed in ATF’s omnibus rulemaking work together to bring the nation much closer to an outcome clearly prohibited by the Second Amendment: (i) mandated serialization of all firearms (and some gun parts), enabling ATF to (ii) mandate federal recordkeeping of all firearms, followed by (iii) ATF forced collection of all such records, followed by (iv) entry of those records into a federal database amounting to registration of firearms and their owners. And, as history has taught all too often, registration leads to confiscation.


Here's hoping it reaches SCOTUS if a Chevron decision isn't coming soon.
 

Emperor Tippy

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Well, now there's a lawsuit against the ATF's new rule thing on frames/receivers:
Article:
At bottom, the Final Rule represents omnibus legislation by a federal administrative agency, seeking to broadly rewrite federal gun control laws to suit a radically anti-gun political agenda.

The Final Rule will sow chaos within large segments of the firearms community, from both the perspective of the industry and the perspective of consumers (law-abiding gun owners), including the individual and the members and supporters of the organizational plaintiffs herein.

The breadth of the Final Rule is massive in the changes to federal firearms law that it imposes on the American people by regulation (rather than by legislation). The Final Rule represents perhaps the most sweeping gun control scheme since the Gun Control Act of 1968, incorporating many of the restrictions found on the legislative wish lists of the nation’s most radical anti-Second Amendment groups, but restrictions which Congress has never seriously considered (much less enacted).

These changes cannot be viewed in isolation, as the changes imposed in ATF’s omnibus rulemaking work together to bring the nation much closer to an outcome clearly prohibited by the Second Amendment: (i) mandated serialization of all firearms (and some gun parts), enabling ATF to (ii) mandate federal recordkeeping of all firearms, followed by (iii) ATF forced collection of all such records, followed by (iv) entry of those records into a federal database amounting to registration of firearms and their owners. And, as history has taught all too often, registration leads to confiscation.


Here's hoping it reaches SCOTUS if a Chevron decision isn't coming soon.

Alas, it is unlikely to reach that far. Most likely, the courts rule that the ATF didn't properly follow Notice and Comment and so rule on those grounds. Without actually reaching the validity of any of the parts of the "Final Rule".

So ATF is forced to go through Notice and Comment again, and then promulgate substantially the same rules except with the procedural issue resolved.

So everything spends the next six to twenty four months in limbo, then substantially the same case is brought again to actually resolve some of the issues.

I mean the Final Rule is blatantly a violation of statute and the Constitution (in places at least), but courts are supposed to decide cases on the narrowest and least impactful grounds. So instead of "This rules is substantively in violation of XYZ" it is "Well you violated procedural rule XYZ so we don't actually have to do anything substantive with this case."
 

Abhorsen

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Alas, it is unlikely to reach that far. Most likely, the courts rule that the ATF didn't properly follow Notice and Comment and so rule on those grounds. Without actually reaching the validity of any of the parts of the "Final Rule".

So ATF is forced to go through Notice and Comment again, and then promulgate substantially the same rules except with the procedural issue resolved.

So everything spends the next six to twenty four months in limbo, then substantially the same case is brought again to actually resolve some of the issues.

I mean the Final Rule is blatantly a violation of statute and the Constitution (in places at least), but courts are supposed to decide cases on the narrowest and least impactful grounds. So instead of "This rules is substantively in violation of XYZ" it is "Well you violated procedural rule XYZ so we don't actually have to do anything substantive with this case."
The delay does have real value though. If it can delay the final rule another 2 years (really 1 and a half) we can get congress + a president to literally nope the rule permanently.
 
Lawsuit to throw out the NFA post-Bruen

bullethead

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Some Florida lawyers are now trying to get the NFA thrown out as unconstitutional:
Article:
To summarize: any law, regulation, or government policy affecting the “right of the people to keep and bear arms,” U.S. CONST., Amend. II, can only be constitutional if the Government demonstrates analogous restrictions deeply rooted in American history evinced by historical materials contemporaneous with the adoption of the Bill of Rights in 1791. Bruen, 597 U.S. at *29.

...

Defendant is charged under 18 U.S.C. 5861 and 5871, as well as conspiracy to commit those offenses. The charged statutes deal with the taxation and transfer of machineguns, and other weapons. The Government alleges the tchotchkes at issue—the “auto key cards”—to be machineguns. What’s more, actions subsequent to the passage of the charged firearm statutes render it impossible to comply with the taxing provisions, thus leaving the statutes a bizarre, vestigial area of law passed pursuant to the taxing power which—in dubious constitutionality—is used by the Government as an independent effective prohibition on the sale, transfer, or possession of any controlled devices not registered by 1986.

The Government may attempt to argue that machineguns are beyond the scope of the Second Amendment by attempting to characterize them as “dangerous and unusual,” as it has in other cases, but this is not the test. The court’s invocation of “dangerous and unusual” weapons in Heller and subsequently Bruen was for the purpose of discussion of what might be a constitutionally acceptable law, rather than the endorsement of any particular extant policy. Bruen, 597 U.S. at *12 (Clarifying that the Court was not undertaking “an exhaustive historical analysis…of the full scope of the Second Amendment”) (quoting Heller, 554 U.S. at 627). Rather, the only way a court may conclude Defendant’s conduct falls outside the scope of the Second Amendment’s unqualified command remains clear: the Government must prove the particular regime in question is consistent with the history and tradition of the United States. Id at *15. Furthermore, the question of whether a weapon is “in common use at the time,” necessarily pins the analysis to the time before the prohibition. To consider otherwise would incentivize the Government to legislate wantonly and aggressively, seizing arms, then later evade constitutional scrutiny by suggesting that the arms cannot be in common use, because the Government prohibited them. Such circular logic would be inconsistent with any fundamental rights jurisprudence. Thus, the Government has the burden to prove that the regime in question is consistent Case 3:21-cr-00022-MMH-MCR Document 101 Filed 07/01/22 Page 4 of 9 PageID 581 5 with the history and tradition of firearms regulation in this country around the founding era.
 

Emperor Tippy

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Fucking idiots.

Yes, the NFA should fall under basically any reasonable reading of the Second Amendment (at least as implemented today) but now is not the time to challenge it and that isn't the way to challenge it.

If you want an NFA test case then what you do is have an FFL manufacture a weapon identical to one already on the registry, apply to have it added to the registry, get denied, and have a gun owner who already owns that identical weapon that is already on the registry try to buy the weapon and be denied on the grounds of it not being a transferable machine gun.

You take that case to court with the desired outcome being the ATF forced to reopen the machine gun registry.

Then, after that, is when you challenge the NFA more broadly.

Hopefully the district and appeals courts do a really bad analysis to quash the case and SCOTUS refuses to hear it now.

Because you aren't likely to find five votes on SCOTUS for dumping the NFA wholesale at this time.

The three liberals and Roberts won't go for it, and Kavanaugh is probably a no as well. Thomas and Gorsuch would probably vote to chuck the NFA wholesale, with Alito as a very strong probably. We don't have enough from Barret yet to really talk about her.

---
The better challenges are to the "assault weapon" and magazine restrictions.
 

bullethead

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Yes, the NFA should fall under basically any reasonable reading of the Second Amendment (at least as implemented today) but now is not the time to challenge it and that isn't the way to challenge it.
Honestly, the Texas law about suppressors made and sold only in Texas is a much better way to break the NFA, at least when it comes to suppressors.

That said, I guess the one-two punch of these lawsuits could work to cut back on the NFA in general.
 

Emperor Tippy

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Honestly, the Texas law about suppressors made and sold only in Texas is a much better way to break the NFA, at least when it comes to suppressors.

That said, I guess the one-two punch of these lawsuits could work to cut back on the NFA in general.
The issue is that if you get a clear cut NFA challenge to SCOTUS at the moment, you are reasonably likely to get a decision that upholds the NFA regardless of the reasoning behind that decision.

That decision will then be used as grounds for all other kinds of restrictions.

You really want the "assault weapons" bans to fall before you go after the NFA. Because upholding those bans is essentially impossible and will simultaneously practically require that SCOTUS define "dangerous and unusual" with far more specificity than has been done to date.

What you don't want right now is NFA items classified in a SCOTUS opinion as "dangerous and unusual".

Even after that issue is settled, you don't want a direct challenge to the NFA. Instead you are better off going after 1) reopening the registry, 2) getting automatic weapons acknowledged as falling under the second amendment, and 3) going after state law restrictions on NFA items.

The biggest problem with a direct NFA challenge is that the vast majority of not just the population but also gun owners are reasonably fine with automatic weapons being more restricted than semi-autos. That the ATF drags their heels on approving transfers and that the registry is closed is seen as the much bigger problem.

Go after the NFA wholesale and you are very liable to get a decision that finds a way to 1) allow registration, or 2) is even more restrictive of automatic weapons.

On the other hand, go after the registry and overnight the price for automatic weapons will plummet and the number in the general population will skyrocket. Once that happens, trying to once more restrict those weapons becomes significantly more difficult.
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
The biggest problem with a direct NFA challenge is that the vast majority of not just the population but also gun owners are reasonably fine with automatic weapons being more restricted than semi-autos. That the ATF drags their heels on approving transfers and that the registry is closed is seen as the much bigger problem.

...Where do you get this idea?

I mean, you may be right, I'm just not really familiar with anyone who thinks that way. That may just be sampling bias, but the general attitude I've seen is that there's no good reason to ban them from private ownership.
 

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