United States 2024: United States Senate Dicussion Thread

[Abhorsen]

That's fair, to a certain extent. Particularly if you think it would not only reduce the direct motivation but also impact the election.

Yeah. It's also very frustrating IMO, as there being a good reason not to do incremental change for the better, well, stops incremental change for the better. And most things happen by incremental change. But reality stays frustrating no matter what I want.

 

[Vyor]

This, however ... whatever the reason is for the way things are on the border, that's the reality on the ground. Biden isn't doing zero, nor did Trump before him, nor Obama, nor Bush, and I don't see reason to think that Trump is going to do zero if he wins based on the laws on the books today.

Sure... but Trump also had a lot less than 1.5 million border crossings a year when he was in office. Indeed, it was under half that on average going by these numbers: Monthly encounters with migrants at U.S.-Mexico border remain near record highs

Even if the total illegal immigrants were double what's shown here that still puts it at less than 1.5 million a year (between .96 and 1.32 million depending on where you put the average for the 4 years he was in office); and I don't think I need to tell you that 2x number is wildly exaggerated from reality.

 

[Terthna]

This, however ... whatever the reason is for the way things are on the border, that's the reality on the ground. Biden isn't doing zero, nor did Trump before him, nor Obama, nor Bush, and I don't see reason to think that Trump is going to do zero if he wins based on the laws on the books today.

The reality on the ground is that those illegal migrants are seen as useful tools by the ruling class that controls huge swaths of the government, on both ends of the political spectrum; which means there's a lot of incentive to let them keep pouring in regardless of what the law says, or who gets hurt, and to fight against anyone (like Trump) who threatens to stop it. In short, Biden isn't doing zero because he, like most of the rest of the system, wants more illegal migrants; while Trump didn't do zero because the system wouldn't let him.

 

[Rocinante]

This, however ... whatever the reason is for the way things are on the border, that's the reality on the ground. Biden isn't doing zero, nor did Trump before him, nor Obama, nor Bush, and I don't see reason to think that Trump is going to do zero if he wins based on the laws on the books today.

You can aim for zero. Trump had like half of what this law would suddenly allow, and if he would have stayed president, would have made thay number even lower.

It's a slap in the face. It's ridiculous.

We literally already have the laws in place to stop this problem, and they won't do it. This law just makes it harder. It's not even what I would call a compromise. Because in a compromise, both sides get something. This is just a concession for the other side. It is a step backwards from the laws on the books. We already know the current laws can work pretty well, because Trump did it.

This law would just disallow Trump from doing as good of a job at it as he did last time. And democrats will probably just not enforce it like they're currently doing with the existing laws.

It's a bad deal. It literally is worse than doing nothing.

 

[strunkenwhite]

You can aim for zero. Trump had like half of what this law would suddenly allow, and if he would have stayed president, would have made thay number even lower.

It's a slap in the face. It's ridiculous.

We literally already have the laws in place to stop this problem, and they won't do it. This law just makes it harder. It's not even what I would call a compromise. Because in a compromise, both sides get something. This is just a concession for the other side. It is a step backwards from the laws on the books. We already know the current laws can work pretty well, because Trump did it.

This law would just disallow Trump from doing as good of a job at it as he did last time. And democrats will probably just not enforce it like they're currently doing with the existing laws.

It's a bad deal. It literally is worse than doing nothing.

Much better argument...
"disallow"
if true? I mean I don't really care that much if the proposal is dead in the water, but I hadn't heard that it actually removed enforcement options that are currently on the table.

 

[Agent23]

So Mitch might be going. Ted Cruz, Mike Lee, and some others seem to be starting a revolt.

Behind the border mess: Open GOP rebellion against McConnell

The Republican leader told POLITICO that his critics "had their shot" already. But conservatives are not done whacking him over the immigration-for-Ukraine aid implosion.

www.politico.com

Sadly, I'm not sure if there's a mechanism to spontaneously eject him.

Don't you Murikhans have recall elections?

 

[filipina84]

All true. However I still wonder if it’s an intentional loss to give Trump a poisoned chalice as the economy gets worse.

That way the neocons and neolibs can go ‘see, this is what you get when you listen to populism instead of us enlightened elites!’ Or something similar.

So you're saying the Democrats are going to lose on purpose, just enough to give Trump a poisoned chalice in his second term?

 

[Agent23]

So you're saying the Democrats are going to lose on purpose, just enough to give Trump a poisoned chalice in his second term?

A lot of stuff will hit the fan soon.

Migration being out of control.

Ukraine/Israel and the middle east/China and Taiwan.

A huge recession/hard landing due to fed incompetence.

The massive deficit.


And to thst you can ass the bumbling Alzheimer's patient with the pedo cokehead son in the White House.


I think that even some Demonrats are disgusted and unhappy.

And others see the situation and think it is best to do a tactical retreat and let Trump hold the bag.

If anything it looks like the Fed and the treasury department are desperate to kick the can down the road until after the elections.

 

[Abhorsen]

Don't you Murikhans have recall elections?

Depends on the state and the position, but not for federal office. But more importantly, it might not apply here as the position (leader of the Republicans aka Senate Minority Leader) has it's own arcane rules, and also has no formal power, just informal power.

 

[strunkenwhite]

Don't you Murikhans have recall elections?

Not for federal positions. They can resign or be kicked out by their own legislative bodies (or both bodies together for the executive branch) but the people that voted them in don't get to call backsies until the next election.

And you know, it can suck but it's fair. Relatedly, I always thought the practice of allowing snap elections was bizarre: they get to schedule their own reelection when it favors them to?

 

[StormEagle]

Don't you Murikhans have recall elections?

As far as I know, recalls aren’t a thing for federal office holders. The only way to, legally, get rid of them is to either kick them from their office in the next election or expel them from their office via a mechanism of Congress.

Personally, I think an amendment needs to be enacted to where you can recall federal office holders. Alongside term limits and banning insider trading, that would go a long way to keeping the morons honest.

I also want a unicorn that shoots laser beams from its eyes and spews fire from its ass.

 

[Agent23]

As far as I know, recalls aren’t a thing for federal office holders. The only way to, legally, get rid of them is to either kick them from their office in the next election or expel them from their office via a mechanism of Congress.

Personally, I think an amendment needs to be enacted to where you can recall federal office holders. Alongside term limits and banning insider trading, that would go a long way to keeping the morons honest.

I also want a unicorn that shoots laser beams from its eyes and spews fire from its ass.

Why did I know about the unicorn bit when I was reading your political wishlist?

In any case, it will e better for the Unicorns to shit out mana and refined rare eaths and other industrially useful metals, like silver.

 

[DarthOne]

A lot of stuff will hit the fan soon.

Migration being out of control.

Ukraine/Israel and the middle east/China and Taiwan.

A huge recession/hard landing due to fed incompetence.

The massive deficit.


And to thst you can ass the bumbling Alzheimer's patient with the pedo cokehead son in the White House.


I think that even some Demonrats are disgusted and unhappy.

And others see the situation and think it is best to do a tactical retreat and let Trump hold the bag.

If anything it looks like the Fed and the treasury department are desperate to kick the can down the road until after the elections.

That and it might be why they haven’t gotten rid of Trump yet. Though that could also be down to them thinking they still have a chance to stop him without lethal means, or having an attack of common sense over what the reaction to that would be or because they’re hoping to bait him and the populist right into moving against them by force of arms first and giving them the pretext to crush them as traitors.

 

[Agent23]

That and it might be why they haven’t gotten rid of Trump yet. Though that could also be down to them thinking they still have a chance to stop him without lethal means, or having an attack of common sense over what the reaction to that would be or because they’re hoping to bait him and the populist right into moving against them by force of arms first and giving them the pretext to crush them as traitors.

Or they are way too weak, stupid and incompetent and live in a bubble.

Also, video slightly related:

 

[Yinko]

I honestly can't disagree with any of his claims. The US either goes to war with a foreign power, or itself. There is zero chance in my mind that it can stay socially and financially viable without a major conflict one way or another. If a civil war looms at or around the election, then that is a pretty tight fit to try to get an international war going. Most predictions on a war with China say that it would start in 3-5 years, and I don't think the electorate would care enough about a war in the middle-east to have it change anything.

 

[Zachowon]

Also domt bet on us starting the war.
Especially depending on who wins

 

[Skitzyfrenic]

War with China would be ruinous.

For China.

They're already facing demographic collapse after multiple decades of the one child policy with no sign of recovery since raising a single child is ruinously expensive let alone the new limit of three, India would instantly got hot on their water war for the headwaters of China's three major rivers and destroy Chinese water infrastructure, their economy is a joke and made up of tofu dregs, their military has just been outed as incredibly corrupt to the point that no one is properly trained and their strategic weapons are full of water instead of fuel, and they've got the biggest infrastructural strategic target in the world in the Three Gorges Dam. The destruction of that last one would likely result in millions of deaths from the deluge and wipe out power for a significant chunk of what doesn't get washed into the ocean.

Even if China won, if any significant amount of casualties were inflicted they'd lose in the end.

A conventional war between China and the US is very much not in China's favor. And they should be smart enough to realize that.

And that's with the recruiting problems the USA is having.

 

[Agent23]

Also domt bet on us starting the war.
Especially depending on who wins

I think most of the world has already read the Forth Turning and Clash of Civilizations and they would rather just leave you to kill each other and not give you another out this time.

 

[Zachowon]

I think most of the world has already read the Forth Turning and Clash of Civilizations and they would rather just leave you to kill each other and not give you another out this time.

By bringing us in I don't mean attack us directly.
I mean hoping fir a civil war and then going after something we have a treaty with BEFORE we start killing each other.
That or Russia goes for Alaska and China attacks Guam and Okinawa

 

[DarthOne]

Unless the war activity threatens the USA, good luck getting the manpower to replace casualties. Or possibly even to fight it.