1920-what if soviet defeat Poland

Sixgun McGurk

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The USA was not a military factor in world affairs then. The WW1 Army was poorly led, raised from a moribund force of old cavalry posts and dissolved just as fast. The people saw that they had gained nothing from the War To End All Wars but a bunch of cripples and refused to support any buildup or serious standing army. The USA had the military might of Belgium at that point and no understanding of the insidiousness of the Communist threat.

Most Europeans do not understand that England was not well liked by the USA until the propaganda effort was made for WW1 and WW2. My grandfather despised them and so did his and so on as a scheming treacherous traditional enemy, always out to break up or sabotage any large country that had the potential to kick the slats out from under their Empire. The USN was never well funded and had to dissuade them for many decades. The treasury secretary of the Confederate States was a British subject and ended up as a Member of Parliament. There were many very hard feelings over the funding of a war that killed 1/7th of the population, a fact that has since been pushed down the memory hole. Add to that the dismissal of any US influence in the stupid treaty that set up WW2, there would have been zero public interest in helping England.
 

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The USA was not a military factor in world affairs then. The WW1 Army was poorly led, raised from a moribund force of old cavalry posts and dissolved just as fast. The people saw that they had gained nothing from the War To End All Wars but a bunch of cripples and refused to support any buildup or serious standing army. The USA had the military might of Belgium at that point and no understanding of the insidiousness of the Communist threat.
Really?
First Red Scare - Wikipedia
The U.S. wasn't a highly interventionist power at this point but that doesn't mean they were completely stupid or unaware of threat's, a successful conquest of Poland would have re-ignited the red scare abroad and have a domino affect of restarting the American one as well..
 
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The communist movement in Germany wasn’t dead though, demoralized and somewhat fractured due to the failure of Rosa and her crew, but it would have tried to coordinate with the red army as if approached Germany. Strikes, uprisings, etc...anything to delay the German response and mobilization.

Not to mention in Italy there was the Trienno Rojo(IIRC)-a period of ferocious communist unrest, and there were leftists in France and the UK-including in the labor unions.

The Soviets probably end up stalling anyway, and the Germans push them out of Poland.
 

ATP

Well-known member
So,basically we had two scenarios :
1.soviets attack Germany and get beaten with or without Allied help.New White Russia, no Poland.
2.Soviets are smart enough to ally with germans, and they are for sure dump enough to buy it.Soviets take part or all of Europe, backstab germans, prepare for next conqest.Urra !!!!
 

Sixgun McGurk

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The Germans would not have helped the Poles, seeing it as two enemies fighting it out. They would seize on Poland's fall as an excuse to reoccupy the territories lost to the Treaty of Versailles. If there is no Poland then there needs be no 'Polish Corridor.' The real tension would be between the French and the British, as the French followed their historic policy of trying to feed the Germans to the Russians in the same fashion that they did when they set up the conditions that started WW1 and the British followed their historic policy of containing the growth of any large power that might threaten their Empire and sought to contain the Soviets. This would put the two remaining powers of the Entente at at loggerheads and might well see Whitehall deciding to drop France and install a new German Kaiser.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Entente turns a blind eye to Reichswehr and Freikorps units arming up with weapons they were not supposed to have, to crush the communist/socialist uprisings and push the reds beyond WWI borders of Germany, while British and the French prop up Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Finland to bottle up Soviets within Baltic sea.

In such a scenario, the Baltics should rather easily fall into Germany's sphere of influence if they will actually maintain their independence, no?

The communist movement by this point had severe setback's in Germany due to the Spartacist Uprising, and without an internal civil war the Soviet's have no chance, of invading Germany any time soon and succeeding. Their is a reason the Czechoslovak Legion caused so much trouble for them in OTL, they were the only truly professional force in Russia by that point in the civil war and the red army was just a mob who called themselves soldiers.

In any case it also depends on how the war ends for Poland, Britain might convince France to either allow Germany retake the polish corridor or expand the League Of Nations mandate over Danzig to include it and the rest of Posen.

But is in no way any of the powers going to allow the Soviet's to take over more of Europe.

Yep, Germany will get permission to expand up to its 1914 borders in the East. Even the Poles there might prefer that to Communist rule. Seriously.
 

ATP

Well-known member
In such a scenario, the Baltics should rather easily fall into Germany's sphere of influence if they will actually maintain their independence, no?



Yep, Germany will get permission to expand up to its 1914 borders in the East. Even the Poles there might prefer that to Communist rule. Seriously.

1.Lithuanians state,and modern nation,was both made by germans.In 1914 there were maybe 500 people who considered themselves"lithuanian" - almost all sponsored by germans rest - they were locals,teached that they are lithuanians during german occupation in the end of WW1.
2.Everything is preferable to soviets.

Of course,you must assume that soviets always rolled 1,and germans 6.If dice changed,you would have soviet state on Rhine,or Atlantic coast.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
1.Lithuanians state,and modern nation,was both made by germans.In 1914 there were maybe 500 people who considered themselves"lithuanian" - almost all sponsored by germans rest - they were locals,teached that they are lithuanians during german occupation in the end of WW1.
2.Everything is preferable to soviets.

Of course,you must assume that soviets always rolled 1,and germans 6.If dice changed,you would have soviet state on Rhine,or Atlantic coast.

The Lithuanian language was widespread on the present-day Lithuanian territories even before WWI. The 1897 Imperial Russian Census is sufficient proof of that.
 

ATP

Well-known member
ATP is a polish ultra nationalist. Everything he says is framed through lens.

Said german supermegaultranationalist who try show german as innocent victims of bad poles after WW1.



polish magnat Hipolit Korwin -Milewski ,who had lands there,wrote in his memories /70 lat wspomnień-70 years of memories/ that lithuanians do not use one language but local ones.As a result,when one speak with another in his home/they were servants,of course/ they use polish,becouse they could not undarstandt what other lithuanian said.

And germans really pay for training of lithuanians before WW1 - becouse they need tool against tsar,and feared of using poles.

And said magnate was not ultra or even nationalist - he was monarchist.Who wrote that after losing almost all of his lands thanks to soviet,german and polish state combined efforts,so he was not fan of Polish republic.

He even wrote during WW1 for french press proving that lithuanian are artifical nation.
 
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WolfBear

Well-known member
Said german supermegaultranationalist who try show german as innocent victims of bad poles after WW1.



polish magnat Hipolit Korwin -Milewski ,who had lands there,wrote in his memories /70 lat wspomnień-70 years of memories/ that lithuanians do not use one language but local ones.As a result,when one speak with another in his home/they were servants,of course/ they use polish,becouse they could not undarstandt what other lithuanian said.

And germans really pay for training of lithuanians before WW1 - becouse they need tool against tsar,and feared of using poles.

And said magnate was not ultra or even nationalist - he was monarchist.Who wrote that after losing almost all of his lands thanks to soviet,german and polish state combined efforts,so he was not fan of Polish republic.

He even wrote during WW1 for french press proving that lithuanian are artifical nation.

Are these memoirs available in English for free online?
 

ATP

Well-known member
Are these memoirs available in English for free online?

Unfortunatelly,only in polish books.Volume 2 is about WW1 - i do not read volume 1,becouse it was about personal life,agriculture,and Petersburg inner politics.
But,Vol2 is very interesting - for example,russians could defest germans in 1914,but there was german clique who prevented russian army from doing so.
Also,1920 in his eys was not real war,but one group chasing others without much real fighting/which,at least near his estate,was true/,and Piłsudzki - and other polish politics - do not undarstandt what made state strong.
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
Said german supermegaultranationalist who try show german as innocent victims of bad poles after WW1.
Wow, turns out pointing out historical facts makes one a german supermegaultranationalist to polish ultra nationalists who deny the existence of Lithuanians. Whoda thunk?
 

ATP

Well-known member
lol Lithuanians are just Forest Poles! ;) :D

Wow, turns out pointing out historical facts makes one a german supermegaultranationalist to polish ultra nationalists who deny the existence of Lithuanians. Whoda thunk?

1.Nope.They considered themselved as "locals" till german-paid dudes teach them,that they are lithuanians.

2.Against,nope.Not me - polish aristocrat who had land there,since then he knew that people there do not speak one language and used polish when try speak to dudes from other villages,and that 500 "lithuanians" who existed in 1914 was paid and trained by germans.
And he certainly was not nationalist - if you read his memories,you would see that he considered himself as pole,but being aristocrat was more important to him.
 

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