1920-what if soviet defeat Poland

ATP

Well-known member
Soviet could conqer Europe not becouse they had great army,but becouse every european country save England was close to revolution,and they would be welcome by useful idiots ewerywhere.
But - good occasion is one thing, and using it propely is another.And Europe still had reliable soldiers and great commanders, like Foch or Weygand.

In my opinion:
1.Lenin could roll 6 - and get entire Europe except England,and all Africa and most of Asia few years later.
2.Roll 5,and get all except England,Scandinavia, China,and british colonies in Africa and Asia.
3.Roll 4 - all Europe except England,Scandinawia,France and benelux.He would not get Africa or Asia,too.
4.Roll 3 - all Europe except 3 and half of Germany.
5.Roll 2 - get only Poland and Balkans
6.Roll 1 - and Allied troops would chase him to Moscow and install white russians there.

Even if soviets take half of the worlds,both Americas ,Australia and maybe Japan would be save,becouse soviet navy always sucked.
P.S Poland was helped by Hungary,France and USA volunteers - so, i thank those nations here.
 
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PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
Entente turns a blind eye to Reichswehr and Freikorps units arming up with weapons they were not supposed to have, to crush the communist/socialist uprisings and push the reds beyond WWI borders of Germany, while British and the French prop up Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Finland to bottle up Soviets within Baltic sea.
 

Husky_Khan

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Yeah, you'd still have Japan fidgeting about in Siberia, France occupying the Rhineland and the United States and Great Britain still pretty fresh off of the Great War in general. It was already a close run thing either way for Bolsheviks to manage the revolution, beat out everyone else in the main part of Russia and still lose Finland, the Baltics and Poland.

It'd be a razor thin critical roll for them to win over Finland, Poland, and the Baltics. It'd seem unlikely that the luck would sustain them through carrying on with conquests of Germany, the Balkans, Central Europe and Scandinavia, much less nations like Italy or France in addition to that, even with a great deal of luck and fortune.

A big deal would be if the United States would keep financing the conflict on behalf of the Entente. France could just want to keep the Rhineland for themselves for the time being and let German sit on their Socialist/Freikorps Civil War and spin. The United States might be more inclined to invest in protecting Germany (and maybe therefore in other freshly independent countries like Czechoslovakia and Austria and the Baltics and whatnot. Britains interests might coincide with America's as well in many respects. Plus there'd be obligations perhaps to protecting Romania as well since they were an ally.

Finland and the Baltics could be in a pretty tough spot and would need significant foreign support if the Reds are being particularly resurgent but even if there is a burst of Red zeal and fervor and success, they would've been at war since 1914 and large swaths of the country have already been devastated and millions lost. There's only so much they can do to sustain offensives abroad, even if given a few years.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Entente turns a blind eye to Reichswehr and Freikorps units arming up with weapons they were not supposed to have, to crush the communist/socialist uprisings and push the reds beyond WWI borders of Germany, while British and the French prop up Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Finland to bottle up Soviets within Baltic sea.

If German do not decide,that Lenin as their agent would be excellent ally against Allies./sorry for bad pun/
They really were stupid enough to do so,and Lenin was pragmatist and act as loyal ally till they come to France.
Where useful idiots/socialists and masons/ would welcome soviets.
Of course, after conqering Europe,all that useful idiots and german allies would end in Gulags - but problem with them is, that they never thought about that in OTL,so they would not think in my TL,too.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Your English is giving me headaches.
do not fear,my polish is almost as bad !!!!!
But -
germans in OTL was stupid enough to help soviet in 1920,and later helped them develop tanks,planes and artillery.Hitler was smart enough to stop that,but he still fall for Stalin trap and agreed to alliance in 1939.
So,germans in my TL would help soviets, too.

socialist and masons in France really sallivated over soviets - so,we would have revolution when soviet- german army get there.

taking Italy and Spain would be as easy.

After that,Lenin would take over his german allies with help of local useful idiots.

West had weapon,but had no Will.That is why ,soviets would take entire or all Europe - unless they roll 1 or 2.
If weapons was everything,then police in USA would not knee before BLM bandits.But - they did so.people in Western Europe would do the same in 1920.Only difference - bandits would be white.
 
D

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I suspect the German communists are excited beyond all measure but with Rosa dead they won’t have effective leadership. Probably hope the red army comes and they get thrust into power on its bayonets or they launch an ill timed uprising and get slaughtered...again.

The Bolsheviki as merely a conquering army will likely be crushed by the better trained German army and Freikorps, this can not be stressed enough-they need local communist support. It’s one thing to isolate and slaughter peasants in remote central Russia, it’s entirely different to be imposing the red banner without at least some people behind you locally in Central Europe.

At the same time, appetite for direct intervention by the western powers was pretty tepid, and the Soviets still have some white forces to deal with in Russia itself.
 
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Free-Stater 101

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I don't know why the heck why people think the communist will just sweep into Germany, the great powers will intervene at the first try and Rosa Luxembourg is dead along with a lot of other communist who died in the uprising they are in no shape to try anything at the moment and furthermore the Red Army is a mess and has no chance of beating a well trained, standing army units, their is a reason after all that the Czechoslovakian Legion was able to fight all the way through Siberia they were the last truly professional force in Russia by that point.
 
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PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
Lapsus linguae, he was probably thinking of Rosa Luxemburg.
they were the last truly professional force in Russia by that point.
There was also Latvian rifle division, but as name implies, there was only division of them.

SPD was more than happy to use Reichswehr and various Freikorps to put down any leftist uprising. If Warsaw falls, German ambivalence towards Soviet Union ends, previously they were happy to see them bludgeon the Poles, but now they would become clear and present danger. At minimum the Germans would occupy greater Danzig-Hel area to get land corridor to Eastern Prussia, but if they could get (silent) approval by the Entente they would occupy entire area lost to Poland in Versailles. The only way for Red Army to take Germany is if they roll 8 with D6 dice.
 

Free-Stater 101

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Rosa Parks was a Communist?
Sorry, I meant Rosa Luxembourg.
SPD was more than happy to use Reichswehr and various Freikorps to put down any leftist uprising. If Warsaw falls, German ambivalence towards Soviet Union ends, previously they were happy to see them bludgeon the Poles, but now they would become clear and present danger. At minimum the Germans would occupy greater Danzig-Hel area to get land corridor to Eastern Prussia, but if they could get (silent) approval by the Entente they would occupy entire area lost to Poland in Versailles. The only way for Red Army to take Germany is if they roll 8 with D6 dice.
I don't think the Germans would be allowed to start annexing their former territory, more than likely they would occupy Danzig but not annex it and put it under their protection.
 

PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
Then they would make some sort of protectorate, just like Israelis in the South Lebanon, so they didn't have reds right on the border.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Then they would make some sort of protectorate, just like Israelis in the South Lebanon, so they didn't have reds right on the border.
Nope.They made deal with soviets during and after 1920 - so why stop now ? german belived, that they could control Lenin.If he died and Trocky take over, there would be war and soviet defeat - but with Lenin alive, they would attack France together.
With help of socialist and masons there, they would win.

And after that,soviets could backstab their german allies, and rule all Europe.German doom was their belief in their superiority.That is why they would die by soviet hands.Becouse soviets were inferior - but inferior enemy could still get you.
You need to belive in your cyvilisation to win.german workers lost that during WW1,and Lenin promised Earth Paradise.They would fall for that.

Soviet thread was never about military strenghth ,but souls.As long as they could use local useful idiots, they would win.
i repeat myself - but if military strenght was everything,then why USA police is kneeling before BLM bandits ?
 
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D

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An important thing to take into consideration was that communism was not nearly as discredited or fringe as it was a century later. The Bolsheviki winning in Poland might convince the western communists that yes, it can be done.

The British communist party didn’t exist though and the French one was...well it had problems(if it was established yet).

The Soviets best chance is that their advance inspires the working classes and peasantry to rise up or at least derail any coalition against Bolshevism.

How successful they are in that regard depends on a lot of things outside their control.

I don’t see some Europe wide crusade against Bolshevism give the risks(fear of working class communist insurrection was very real amongst the upper classes), as well as the trouble involved.

In any event without voluminous local support(which the Soviets won’t have in Poland-even if Trotsky does make some overarching appeals to the polish peasantry and working class), the Soviets will end up fighting local resistance and be overstretched anyway.

Germany might intervene and drive them out of Poland and if they get close-Silesia.

Though the allies also don’t want a revanchist Germany taking Eastern Europe. So they’ll be forced to hold the Germans back if they start picking up momentum.

So even if the Soviets are pushed back, they’ll survive.
 
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CurtisLemay

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I think the short term is bad for Europe. A Soviet regime installed in Poland, possibly one in Hungary, and revolution in Germany (with more realistic prospects than OTL). But long-term? Britain and France aren't going to tolerate this. War-weary as they may be, they are going to arm and support whomever they have to do drive the Reds back into Russia. Beyond that, I doubt they'll care (they didn't historically). But, the short term is going to suck hard for Eastern and Central Europe, and may lead to an overstretched communist regime in Russia collapsing a lot sooner than historically.

So how does THAT butterfly pan out? Who knows?
 

ATP

Well-known member
I think the short term is bad for Europe. A Soviet regime installed in Poland, possibly one in Hungary, and revolution in Germany (with more realistic prospects than OTL). But long-term? Britain and France aren't going to tolerate this. War-weary as they may be, they are going to arm and support whomever they have to do drive the Reds back into Russia. Beyond that, I doubt they'll care (they didn't historically). But, the short term is going to suck hard for Eastern and Central Europe, and may lead to an overstretched communist regime in Russia collapsing a lot sooner than historically.

So how does THAT butterfly pan out? Who knows?
To win over entire Europe, soviets need Germany and local socialists help.That could be done, Germans belived,that they could made deals with soviets in OTL,and socialist everywhere belived in Lenin Earthy Paradise.
Of course, even then Foch&others could still beat them.

And remember - Trocky and his thugs was send to Russia by Wall street,so with USA support,conqer of Europe is possibility.
 
D

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If Germany goes red expect full scale French intervention. It would likely be a civil war in any case. Alongside revolutionary upheavals in Italy and the Balkans.

The British and French would see Bolshevism coming straight for them, and Churchill would demanding war to Moscow.

The French and british would need to rely heavily on their colonial troops, and God help them if the Bolsheviki bacillus enters the heads of Indian or Senegalese troops.

As it is, the Americans would probably not be involved and the American public would simply hang its hands up at dealing with more European madness.
 

Free-Stater 101

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The communist movement by this point had severe setback's in Germany due to the Spartacist Uprising, and without an internal civil war the Soviet's have no chance, of invading Germany any time soon and succeeding. Their is a reason the Czechoslovak Legion caused so much trouble for them in OTL, they were the only truly professional force in Russia by that point in the civil war and the red army was just a mob who called themselves soldiers.

In any case it also depends on how the war ends for Poland, Britain might convince France to either allow Germany retake the polish corridor or expand the League Of Nations mandate over Danzig to include it and the rest of Posen.

But is in no way any of the powers going to allow the Soviet's to take over more of Europe.
 
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ATP

Well-known member
Yes,soviets was mostly mob.Mob welcomed by all leftist and most minorities,but still mob.
That is why they need alliance with Germany - to use their experienced troops and commanders to take over Europe, and backstab them later.

Any alliance with soviets was suicide, but...germans in OTL was stupid enough to made alliance with soviets in 1922 in Rapallo - so they would be stupid enough to to that this time.
Becouse they were blinded by their hatred for Poland and belief,that if Lenin take their money to made revolution,he would be grateful for them.

What next ? attack on France where socialist and at least part of masons would help soviets.If most french soldiers do not fight,France would fall.There were too little colonial troops to save a day for them.
Even if they fight,Germany would remain soviets.

Unless Foch defeat them quickly,and american would sent a lot of troops. In that case, we could see soviets destroyed,and White Russia returned.

So,all depends on how many french soldiers would fight,how USA would react,and how lucky both sides would be.

Considering,that Wall street pay Trocky and his 1500 thugs get to Russia,i do not think,that USA do much unless England would be attacked.
 

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