History 1914 Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand

[ATP]

IMO strong vibes of urban legend and gossip.

As to Rennenkampf and Samsonov hating one another and "not working together well" - I'm fairly certain there were such examples in other armies of the period (there are many examples from the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars era). I'd say that such a problem exists since 2000BC or so

Not in that case.He was polish aristocrat close to russian inner circles ,and since 1915 lived in France,so he saw how politics was made.French start beliving him when in 1915 he gave them memorando stating that russian would never gain again territories lost to germans,Italy would be useless,England would fight using France - but they eventually would win.Becouse all that was true,they start listening to him.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

Franz Ferdinand's assassination just makes me sick to my stomach. Such a good man getting murdered by some of the most incompetent yet lucky assassins in history strikes me as some kind of cosmic practical joke.

What's worse, he actually had plans to reform the Austro-Hungarian Empire into a federal style state that could have worked very well. A strong Austria-Hungary goes a long way to keeping stability in that part of the world.

 

[Aldarion]

What's worse, he actually had plans to reform the Austro-Hungarian Empire into a federal style state that could have worked very well. A strong Austria-Hungary goes a long way to keeping stability in that part of the world.

That is why he was killed to begin with. He could not be allowed to survive, because then Austria-Hungary had a very good chance of surviving.

Emperor Karl I. also had plans to reform the Empire in a similar vein, but between the war weariness and all the stupid leftists running everywhere, it was too little, too late.

 

[Buba]

Lets us not go overboard with FF being a Good Man and having a Miracle Cure for A-H.
I see him as a spoiled brat - he knew the rules on marriages yet he still threw a tantrum and tried to have his cake and eat it too.
As to plans and their implementation - sitting on the throne would give him a different perspective on what's possible and what is not. E.g. good luck with breaking up Hungary along ethnic lines without a Civil War.

As to Karl - sometimes I wonder about the so-called "Sixtus Affair" - I wonder if Karl could had managed it (or something similar) better and actually made a deal behind Germany's (and Turkey's) back. It would result in a "stab in the back" legend on steroids, of course. But would had preserved A-H.

 

[Aldarion]

As to plans and their implementation - sitting on the throne would give him a different perspective on what's possible and what is not. E.g. good luck with breaking up Hungary along ethnic lines without a Civil War.

Breaking up Hungary was not necessary. Austria, yes, but Hungary will have lost none of its territories with such a plan - Croatia was a separate kingdom within Hungarian half of the monarchy.

As to Karl - sometimes I wonder about the so-called "Sixtus Affair" - I wonder if Karl could had managed it (or something similar) better and actually made a deal behind Germany's (and Turkey's) back. It would result in a "stab in the back" legend on steroids, of course. But would had preserved A-H.

Yeah, that would have been good.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

Lets us not go overboard with FF being a Good Man and having a Miracle Cure for A-H.
I see him as a spoiled brat - he knew the rules on marriages yet he still threw a tantrum and tried to have his cake and eat it too.

Oh no, he married for love. How terrible.

Edit: By the way, getting some new blood into the Habsburg line was likely a very good idea given how after centuries of inbreeding their blood might actually have been blue.

 

[Cherico]

Oh no, he married for love. How terrible.

Edit: By the way, getting some new blood into the Habsburg line was likely a very good idea given how after centuries of inbreeding their blood might actually have been blue.

Id also like to note that Justian the first of Byzantium married a litteral actress who was of much lower ranking and still managed to be one of the best emperors the eastern roman empire had.

 

[Buba]

Breaking up Hungary was not necessary. Austria, yes, but Hungary will have lost none of its territories with such a plan - Croatia was a separate kingdom within Hungarian half of the monarchy.

Are we talking about the same "federalisation" plan?

Oh no, he married for love. How terrible.

FF marrying for love is like totally cool, yeah, what I'm bitching about is FF knowing the rules yet throwing a tantrum over the marriage being morganatic.

 

[Aldarion]

Are we talking about the same "federalisation" plan?

The plan you listed was never even proposed, to my knowledge (Franz Ferdinand did give it some thought, but that was it). The one I was talking about was Croatian proposal:

I put in a map in the post you replied to as well, not sure why you didn't see it...

Sure, federalism based on ethnic groups would likely be superior option, but for the beginning, even trialism was a hard enough pill to swallow.

 

[Buba]

I put in a map in the post you replied to as well, not sure why you didn't see it...

My antiquated software stops me from seeing some things.
Thank you for reposting, now we are on the same page
I've never seen the map for the Trinue proposal, BTW. Makes sense, I agree. Indeed a step in the right direction.
Throw in Kraina (plus part of Styria and bits of Karynthia) and call the whole thing Yugoslavia
And have it use Kajkavski as official language.

 

[Aldarion]

My antiquated software stops me from seeing some things.
Thank you for reposting, now we are on the same page
I've never seen the map for the Trinue proposal, BTW. Makes sense, I agree. Indeed a step in the right direction.
Throw in Kraina (plus part of Styria and bits of Karynthia) and call the whole thing Yugoslavia
And have it use Kajkavski as official language.

That was actually the more common trialist proposal, compared to the one I posted:

 

[Lord Sovereign]

Having read up a little on Austria-Hungary in 1913 (courtesy of "The Sleepwalkers" by Christopher Clark. Fantastic book by the way) I actually feel genuinely sad as to what happened to this old empire. It had its problems like everyone else, but it seemed to be on the right track with reform. The Austrian Reichstag certainly had a good idea as to what should be done with the various ethnicties of the empire, it was just a matter of wrangling the Maygar nobility into the same mindset. That would have been difficult for sure, but still doable. It would certainly not have been the first time Vienna worked things out with a stubborn Budapest.

Why yes, I'm an avid supporter of restoring a Habsburg to the the throne of Austria (although as I understand it they'd have the title of "Archduke" instead of "Emperor" if such a thing happened). How did you tell?

 

[Aldarion]

Having read up a little on Austria-Hungary in 1913 (courtesy of "The Sleepwalkers" by Christopher Clark. Fantastic book by the way) I actually feel genuinely sad as to what happened to this old empire. It had its problems like everyone else, but it seemed to be on the right track with reform. The Austrian Reichstag certainly had a good idea as to what should be done with the various ethnicties of the empire, it was just a matter of wrangling the Maygar nobility into the same mindset. That would have been difficult for sure, but still doable. It would certainly not have been the first time Vienna worked things out with a stubborn Budapest.

Why yes, I'm an avid supporter of restoring a Habsburg to the the throne of Austria (although as I understand it they'd have the title of "Archduke" instead of "Emperor" if such a thing happened). How did you tell?

Indeed. World War I ruined everything for everyone.

And thanks for the recommendation, I saw that book somewhere but completely forgot about it...

 

[Lord Sovereign]

Indeed. World War I ruined everything for everyone.

I watched this marvelous television series called "Great Continental Railway Journeys" presented by a chap called Michael Portillo, and that's all about pre-war Europe where he follows a railway guide written at the time. As I went through the series and got a glimpse at the old world, the thought of "this doesn't seem so horrible, especially given the standards of the time" did cross my mind.

Over the years, that thought has turned into a feeling of tremendous loss. Flawed and hilariously unequal as it was, I do somewhat mourn the passing of Imperial Europe. I mean, history would have been happier had the Romanovs and Hohenzollerns stayed on their rightful thrones at the very least.

 

[ATP]

Franz Ferdinand's assassination just makes me sick to my stomach. Such a good man getting murdered by some of the most incompetent yet lucky assassins in history strikes me as some kind of cosmic practical joke.

What's worse, he actually had plans to reform the Austro-Hungarian Empire into a federal style state that could have worked very well. A strong Austria-Hungary goes a long way to keeping stability in that part of the world.

Yes,that was terrible crime,and his plans could worked.Unfortunatelly for him,France,Russia,and Germany wonted war becouse they belived in quick victory,and England wonted it becouse they belived in bleeding Europe.
So,no matter how good he was,he would fail and war would occur anyway.