Culture Anti-Semitism and Collective vs. Individual Guilt

There's one place individualism has always failed: War.

It would be absurd to demand Israel (though of course the UN and US both are doing exactly that) treat Gazans as individuals. Every Gazan vote, poll, almost every organization, and the testimony of hostages on "civilian" participation, young and old, male and female, in their kidnapping, shows Gazans to collectively be Israel's enemy. There certainly are individual Gazans who are not, but War has no way to single them out, and Israel cannot win a war by wasting resources trying, except to the extent necessary to play along to insane international demands.

How close America is to Civil War, and which groups must be collectively placed on one side or the other, and which groups must internally divide in a civil war of their own . . . well that's a question that will be very important in the next decade.
See, that doesn't actually refute my statement. I didn't say individualism works at everything. I said collectivism is the root of the worst evils. And you simply pointed out that yes, war works via collectivism, which is 100% in line with my position.

That is why I said "extreme individualism of libertarian stripe". Tolkien for example was libertarian yet still believed in ethno-states.
No, I mean there are extreme individualist libertarians who aren't open borders because of libertarian ideals.


Regardless, treating jews as a collective is somehow very popular, and it almost always leads to bad stuff.
 
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And particularly telling with you, is how you link an article where in the Ottomans committed genocide with some Jews supporting it, and you're citing it as a reason to have a hostile attitude towards the Jews, rather than the Ottomans or their successors, the Turks.
That one of many. I can give more even if you wish.
This is not a rational animosity.
I could give more if interested, as I mentioned above, considering the research is vast by both Jewish and non-Jewish individuals. I listed other potential reasons above.
This is not a rational animosity.
I could say the same thing on how you react on certain subjects or group of people, but the vaguely accusatory tone is having the same effect of someone calling me either a right winger or a leftist, primarily because I am a maternally and paternally descendant from the group this thread is about.
 
I mean it is relevant to the discussion how it started all of this antisemitism.

I wasn't aware the October 7th Attacks and ensuing acts of antisemitism were done to honor the memory of the victims of the Ottoman perpetrated Armenian Genocide of 1915.

Yet you bring up things like this oftentimes as "food for convo" in this thread which again, is about acts of antisemitism in the wake of the October 7th attacks.

It sounds like you really want to discuss why antisemitism is justified but for some reason don't want to open a megathread on it but instead sperg around it in this thread about recent acts of antisemitism. Just seems odd. Hmmm... :unsure:

That one of many. I can give more even if you wish.

I could give more if interested, as I mentioned above, considering the research is vast by both Jewish and non-Jewish individuals. I listed other potential reasons above.

All the more reason to open your own thread about it. You clearly have been compiling a lot of examples of why Antisemitism is justified and are eager to share them.
 
That one of many. I can give more even if you wish.

I could give more if interested, as I mentioned above, considering the research is vast by both Jewish and non-Jewish individuals. I listed other potential reasons above.

I could say the same thing on how you react on certain subjects or group of people, but the vaguely accusatory tone is having the same effect of someone calling me either a right winger or a leftist, primarily because I am a maternally and paternally descendant from the group this thread is about.
And a leftist can give a long list of reasons why whitey is evil.

The root matter is that you're blaming a group, especially a group that people are born into through no choice of their own, for acts committed by individuals.

It'd be one thing if someone incorporated the 'Pro Armenian genocide Jewish Club' 110 years ago, and you were giving a membership roll and saying 'we should hate these people.'

No, you're saying 'What some people of an ethnicity did a century ago gives justification for hating people on another continent of that same ethnicity now.'

That's actual racism. It's bad when leftists do it against whitey, and it's bad when you do it against jews.
 
No, I mean there are extreme individualist libertarians who aren't open borders because of libertarian ideals.
Interesting. Know any examples?
Regardless, treating jews as a collective is somehow very popular, and it almost always leads to bad stuff.
True. Worse than that: it leads to misidentifying the true cause of the problem, as I had stated here.

Jews simply have the misfortune that they had been the oldest and most noticeable ethnic minority in Europe. Problem aren't the Jews, problem is diversity. Give every single ethnicity in the world its own homogenous ethnostate, and watch 90% of conflicts simply solve themselves over few decades.
There's no large crusade against Germans for what the Nazis did 80-90 years ago.
Yes, there is. And not just ze Germans, but white people in general. And some ethnicities (Germans, Croatians) have it worse than others.

Of course, argument could be made that Nazism is simply an excuse, and that globalists always wanted to do it in the first place.
 
And a leftist can give a long list of reasons why whitey is evil.

The root matter is that you're blaming a group, especially a group that people are born into through no choice of their own, for acts committed by individuals.

It'd be one thing if someone incorporated the 'Pro Armenian genocide Jewish Club' 110 years ago, and you were giving a membership roll and saying 'we should hate these people.'

No, you're saying 'What some people of an ethnicity did a century ago gives justification for hating people on another continent of that same ethnicity now.'

That's actual racism. It's bad when leftists do it against whitey, and it's bad when you do it against jews.
Is it bad when you do it and apply it too all Arabs or Muslims when one Muslim in the UK commits a crime?
 
Interesting. Know any examples?
Most of the Mises Caucus, which currently runs the US Libertarian National Party, including the prominent members such as Dave Smith, etc.

I'm another example.

Basically the argument goes like: "Nations shouldn't own anything, everything should be privately owned. Therefore borders should be privately controlled because of private property. And if you must have a nation, that nation should be able to decide to close it's own border."

Problem aren't the Jews, problem is diversity. Give every single ethnicity in the world its own homogenous ethnostate, and watch 90% of conflicts simply solve themselves over few decades.
The problem isn't diversity. It's diversity in a group that isn't designed to handle it. Meanwhile the US is great at handling racial diversity, but shit at handling view diversity (i.e. internal commies).
 
Most of the Mises Caucus, which currently runs the US Libertarian National Party, including the prominent members such as Dave Smith, etc.

I'm another example.

Basically the argument goes like: "Nations shouldn't own anything, everything should be privately owned. Therefore borders should be privately controlled because of private property. And if you must have a nation, that nation should be able to decide to close it's own border."
Thanks.

And yeah, that is a good concept.
The problem isn't diversity. It's diversity in a group that isn't designed to handle it. Meanwhile the US is great at handling racial diversity, but shit at handling view diversity (i.e. internal commies).
No, it isn't. US are shit at handling racial diversity, but pretend they are great at it because until late 1900s the only meaningful diversity was between various European ethnicities, who rather easily melted together due to commonalities in culture and ancestry. Basically, from 1790 until 1990, US were 80%+ white. The only diversity they had to worry about was cultural diversity, but that was a problem which basically solved itself due to not-to-high scale of immigration as well as the origin of the immigrants. In such conditions, dominant group can keep order simply by enforcing its own values and order.

But once US started becoming more diverse...
F8lz1y1a0AASyTR


The only real way to "handle" racial - or any other type of - diversity is to give each group its own territory. Roman Republic and Roman Empire did that, Holy Roman Empire did that (see etymology of stem duchies!).

"Integrating" different groups together is a modern concept, and just like most modern concepts, it is a fundamentally retarded one. If you look at all historical cosmopolitan cities - Rome, Constantinople, name it - you will see one common characteristic (beyond the obvious - diversity and trade). That characteristic is high murder rate, and propensity towards extreme violence in general.

And now West is implementing it on level of whole countries! There is just no way such an experiment can go terribly wrong.</sarcam>
 
See, that doesn't actually refute my statement. I didn't say individualism works at everything. I said collectivism is the root of the worst evils. And you simply pointed out that yes, war works via collectivism, which is 100% in line with my position.
That renders your point true only in the most banal sense. "War is bad" is nothing beyond a shibboleth. War is often better than the alternative, and demanding people not treat a war as a war is nothing more than demanding suicide. It's certainly not doing anything against the common criticism, which I don't even agree with, of libertarianism as voluntary suicide.
 
*looks at map*

Yeah, reservations can be pretty rough. Doesn't help that there's been a widespread adoption of ghetto culture.
Yeah, this is something I don't think a lot of foreigners actually understand very well.

Heck, a lot of people on the East Coast don't really understand it.

I've driven across, by, or too a fair share of reservations, and people don't get how it is unless they've been there.

The nicer ones, like the Flathead or Ute areas, have a decent quality of life; the worse one's, like the Crow or many of the pueblo's...they make Oakland or Chicago feel cozy.
 
That renders your point true only in the most banal sense. "War is bad" is nothing beyond a shibboleth. War is often better than the alternative, and demanding people not treat a war as a war is nothing more than demanding suicide. It's certainly not doing anything against the common criticism, which I don't even agree with, of libertarianism as voluntary suicide.
My statement is that collectivism leads to very bad stuff.

You then argued against something I wasn't saying.
 
My statement is that collectivism leads to very bad stuff.

You then argued against something I wasn't saying.

You demanded that people not be treated collectively. Pointing out that people must be treated collectively in war, which is often better than the alternative is a direct counter. War is also not necessarily the only instance in which people must be treated collectively and still being better than the alternative, requiring you to individually justify your demands instead of merely putting out more shibboleths about collectivism bad, war bad.
 
You demanded that people not be treated collectively. Pointing out that people must be treated collectively in war, which is often better than the alternative is a direct counter. War is also not necessarily the only instance in which people must be treated collectively and still being better than the alternative, requiring you to individually justify your demands instead of merely putting out more shibboleths about collectivism bad, war bad.
My statement:
I'm not saying individualism can't be bad, what I'm saying is that the bad of individualism is orders of magnitude less than collectivism. When collectivism goes bad, it goes really bad (Communism, fascism, US's chattel slavery, ESG, etc).

When individualism goes bad, its an issue of just that individual (school shooter, guy who wants to know what it's like to kill someone, serial killer, etc).
Where's the demand?

More, the real issue is that my statement is a statement about the origins of major evils. You've replied with "Well, if something evil already exists, how should you respond" That's not what I'm talking about at all, so you continue to reply to a point I'm not making. I'm not going to defend a point I'm not even making.
 
Thanks.

And yeah, that is a good concept.

No, it isn't. US are shit at handling racial diversity, but pretend they are great at it because until late 1900s the only meaningful diversity was between various European ethnicities, who rather easily melted together due to commonalities in culture and ancestry. Basically, from 1790 until 1990, US were 80%+ white. The only diversity they had to worry about was cultural diversity, but that was a problem which basically solved itself due to not-to-high scale of immigration as well as the origin of the immigrants. In such conditions, dominant group can keep order simply by enforcing its own values and order.

But once US started becoming more diverse...
F8lz1y1a0AASyTR


The only real way to "handle" racial - or any other type of - diversity is to give each group its own territory. Roman Republic and Roman Empire did that, Holy Roman Empire did that (see etymology of stem duchies!).

"Integrating" different groups together is a modern concept, and just like most modern concepts, it is a fundamentally retarded one. If you look at all historical cosmopolitan cities - Rome, Constantinople, name it - you will see one common characteristic (beyond the obvious - diversity and trade). That characteristic is high murder rate, and propensity towards extreme violence in general.

And now West is implementing it on level of whole countries! There is just no way such an experiment can go terribly wrong.</sarcam>
Vargas'Brazil efficiently integrated lots of immigrants' population by... forcing them to speak Portugues.

Kinda collectivist move from his side.

I think it applied also to Poles and to a lesser degree Ukranians.

But if you want to integrate into Euro-US style you might as well give up unless you go to the same lenght Vargas went.
 
My statement:

Where's the demand?

More, the real issue is that my statement is a statement about the origins of major evils. You've replied with "Well, if something evil already exists, how should you respond" That's not what I'm talking about at all, so you continue to reply to a point I'm not making. I'm not going to defend a point I'm not even making.
Hmm . . .
You are talking about predicting behavior. That's all well and fine. I'm talking about individual guilt. These are two separate things. When a group of X does Y, people who are X but not in the group aren't guilty of Y.

More, I'm not saying that grouping people up is a bad predictor, I'm saying not to do it because giving into collectivism is where most of the shittiest things come from.
Hmm, what's that? You demanding something not be done even if it objectively works? Because it's automatically bad, right?

Giving into collectivism being bad is a shibboleth. Whether it is bad is entirely dependent on the individual instance.
 
Hmm, what's that? You demanding something not be done even if it objectively works? Because it's automatically bad, right?

Giving into collectivism being bad is a shibboleth. Whether it is bad is entirely dependent on the individual instance.
Again, you totally ignored my point about the origin.

Treating others as a collective causes nearly all major evils. There's the core argument. But you refuse to engage with it.
 
Again, you totally ignored my point about the origin.

Treating others as a collective causes nearly all major evils. There's the core argument. But you refuse to engage with it.

Why do you think others must engage you in esoteric and unfalsifiable theory instead of your demand on behavior?

What I'm telling you is that you must engage each instance of collectivism on its own merits, instead of spouting shibboleths.
 
Why do you think others must engage you in esoteric and unfalsifiable theory instead of your demand on behavior?

What I'm telling you is that you must engage each instance of collectivism on its own merits, instead of spouting shibboleths.
Again, I made a claim about collectivism in general. It's quite falsifiable: tell me origins of horrors that occurred because of treating people as individuals, not as a collective. And give me more than a few, as I said most.

Honestly, the great man theory of history would be a great place to begin with this. It's not horribly difficult. You could likely cite the inquisition, witch hunts, many forms of slavery (based off of debt or pressganging), etc. All of those were based off of individual actions the victim did. Now I'd still argue that Collectivization has lead to more and worse, but then I'd still need to adjust my statement.

See? It was falsifiable. I literally just did the job you were too lazy to do for you. Next time, maybe actually read what I claimed instead of inventing a position I didn't have.
 

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