Meme Thread for Both Posting and Discussing Memes

I didn't say it was. In fact, I specifically said it wasn't. I said that you have to disregard ethics to succeed in geo-politics. Which is why I recommend not getting entangled in geo-politics.

But as I wrote: you rely entirely on mangling what others said. You're not even debating against anything I said... you're debating some imaginary argument that you cooked up yourself. Which is, regrettably, what you always seem to do. I still don't know if it's a deliberate tactic, or if you're just incapable of grasping what others actually mean.
As an ethicist, you certainly can admit that there exists a wide variety of often contradictory ethical systems. Can we agree on that one?
If so, can you specify *which* ethical systems do you have to disregard to succeed in geo-politics, or are you making the risky move of making this a blanket statement?

You said "Non-interventionism is not any more of a moral position than pacifism."

Since we are talking about ethics, that's the field upon which we compare. And "not any more of a moral position" is an equation; you're morally equating them here. Your own words.

Please stop lying.
Damn, good thing i didn't study ethics, apparently in ethics <= means the same as =.
As you can even admit, i wasn't saying they are the same thing, i was just stating their value in my opinion is rather low and for similar reasons and to unspecific degree.

Again, you mangle the argument with somehing imaginary. Where have I said that people listen to ethicists? My entire point was that they don't, by and large (but that they'd probably be better off if they did it a bit more).
Yeah, considering what i'm seeing from one here, i'll have to agree these people.
 
As an ethicist, you certainly can admit that there exists a wide variety of often contradictory ethical systems. Can we agree on that one?
Certainly, not that it matters here, because--

If so, can you specify *which* ethical systems do you have to disregard to succeed in geo-politics, or are you making the risky move of making this a blanket statement?
--the answer is 'all of them'. Geo-political success, throughout history, has consistently relied on being the most ruthless party in any contest. Again, that's my whole point: that if you want to make a play for hegemony over any world-system (for example: the ancient mediterranean world, or the Chinese world), you have to be the most unscrupulous contender for the position.

Which is why my advice is not to contend for the position. I consider the price of victory too high.

You seem not to have grasped that I'm fully capable of making a distinction between 'what is needed for geo-political success' and 'what is needed for an ethical existence' (by any standard). In fact, I get the sense that you are incapable of making that distinction.


Damn, good thing i didn't study ethics, apparently in ethics <= means the same as =.
As you can even admit, i wasn't saying they are the same thing, i was just stating their value in my opinion is rather low and for similar reasons and to unspecific degree.
That's not what you said earlier. You're trying to retro-activily alter your supposed statement. That's intellectually dishonest.

Yeah, considering what i'm seeing from one here, i'll have to agree these people.
That has no argumentative value, you're at playground level now.
 
Certainly, not that it matters here, because--


--the answer is 'all of them'. Geo-political success, throughout history, has consistently relied on being the most ruthless party in any contest. Again, that's my whole point: that if you want to make a play for hegemony over any world-system (for example: the ancient mediterranean world, or the Chinese world), you have to be the most unscrupulous contender for the position.

Which is why my advice is not to contend for the position. I consider the price of victory too high.
I think that is a blanket assumption that is, as often the case, a wide and extremely hard to defend one.

After all, some of the most successful contenders in this context were at their time considered the peak of civilized and fair governance, starting with Rome. Sure, lots of questionable things by modern standards, but are you going to go as far as say that the extremely warlike Germanic tribes of the time and the cannibal tribes isolated in various corners of the world were clearly more ethical than them?
Similar context applies to some others, like the British Empire, or current US weird not-empire that's certainly not more ruthless than Russia or Iran.
Sure, pursuing global power is incompatible with claiming total peacefulness, innocence, non violence, general harmlessness and equal consideration for everyone, but it's a far cry for being necessarily the most ruthless too.
You seem not to have grasped that I'm fully capable of making a distinction between 'what is needed for geo-political success' and 'what is needed for an ethical existence' (by any standard). In fact, I get the sense that you are incapable of making that distinction.
As you see, we kinda disagree about what is needed for geo-political success, and we also disagree what does exactly "ethical existence" mean, so of course i do make a distinction, however i do disagree about your claimed mutual exclusivity of them.

That's not what you said earlier. You're trying to retro-activily alter your supposed statement. That's intellectually dishonest.
Yes, i have altered it from your obviously bad reading in which "no more than" is an equation.
 
I think that is a blanket assumption that is, as often the case, a wide and extremely hard to defend one.

After all, some of the most successful contenders in this context were at their time considered the peak of civilized and fair governance, starting with Rome. Sure, lots of questionable things by modern standards, but are you going to go as far as say that the extremely warlike Germanic tribes of the time and the cannibal tribes isolated in various corners of the world were clearly more ethical than them?
Similar context applies to some others, like the British Empire, or current US weird not-empire that's certainly not more ruthless than Russia or Iran.
Sure, pursuing global power is incompatible with claiming total peacefulness, innocence, non violence, general harmlessness and equal consideration for everyone, but it's a far cry for being necessarily the most ruthless too.

This, this I'll agree with.
 
I think that is a blanket assumption that is, as often the case, a wide and extremely hard to defend one.

After all, some of the most successful contenders in this context were at their time considered the peak of civilized and fair governance, starting with Rome. Sure, lots of questionable things by modern standards, but are you going to go as far as say that the extremely warlike German tribes of the time and the cannibal tribes isolated in various corners of the world were clearly more ethical than them?
Similar context applies to some others, like the British Empire, or current US weird not-empire that's certainly not more ruthless than Russia or Iran.
Sure, pursuing global power is incompatible with claiming total peacefulness, innocence, non violence, general harmlessness and equal consideration for everyone, but it's a far cry for being necessarily the most ruthless too.
The German tribes and some isolated primitives weren't capable of contending. It wasn't a choice. Still, though, I'd call the Germanic peoples more ethical than Rome, to be sure (on average). In Germania, membership of tribes was typically voluntary, and whole families could and did 'secede' from one tribe and join another. It was disorganised and sometimes messy, but I'd argue that their premises about existence were more ethical than those of Rome.

For now we look at Rome, and Rome was ruthless. Rome exterminated whole tribes, enslaved people by the tens of thousands. Not even out of any malice, but out of simple cold practicality. Rome wiped Carthage from the map, and then (again out of practicality) rebuilt it in its own image.

That's Empire. That's what it takes.

America is the same. Utterly ruthless when it needs to be. You dispute it, but I see the only world power that has actually used atomic weapons. And I can respect that. But I don't pretend that a power operating in that arena is moral... or that it has space to be.


Yes, i have altered it from your obviously bad reading in which "no more than" is an equation.
"No more than" means, by definition "equal to or less than". Since you said "is no more moral than", your sentence means the same as "non-interventionism is equally moral to, or less moral than, pacifism". Your sentence excludes all other interpretation.

Therefore, I'm being generous by saying you equated them. The only alternative is that you intended to outright compare non-intervention negatively to pacifism.

The fact that you're now trying to weasel your way out of this illustrates how dishonmest you are. You could also just admit "oh, all right, I phrased that carelessly and what I wrote was wrong, but I actually ment something else".

But you never admit that, you just try to twist it so you don't have to admit fault.
 
Certainly, not that it matters here, because--


--the answer is 'all of them'. Geo-political success, throughout history, has consistently relied on being the most ruthless party in any contest. Again, that's my whole point: that if you want to make a play for hegemony over any world-system (for example: the ancient mediterranean world, or the Chinese world), you have to be the most unscrupulous contender for the position.

Which is why my advice is not to contend for the position. I consider the price of victory too high.

It's funny seeing how you're not just wrong here, but exactly the opposite of correct.

The Nazis were incredibly ruthless.

They failed.

The Soviets were incredibly ruthless.

They failed.

The Aztecs were incredibly ruthless.

They failed.

The British were the least-ruthless of the European Colonial powers, but actually retained many former colonies, and some (like Hong Kong) wish they had been retained, and they were the world hegemon (or closest thing to it) for centuries.

The USA has been the single most benevolent and soft-touch world hegemon in the history of the world. The cruelest and harshest things done under our hegemony, have been because we failed to clamp down sufficiently hard on 'allies' or pseudo-vassals to stop them from brutalizing their own people.

The USA has also held the most lopsided balance of power in world history. No other hegemon has ever held such a lopsided dominance of the world.


Every hegemon must be willing to be ruthless at the right time and place, but to pretend that it is the 'most ruthless' who will triumph is to be ignorant of the last millennium of European history at the least, and last century of world history.

It's funny, because before this post, I'd thought you were someone who had a decent grasp of civilization's ills, even if you had some funny ideas about how to deal with them.
 
It's funny seeing how you're not just wrong here, but exactly the opposite of correct.

The Nazis were incredibly ruthless.

They failed.

The Soviets were incredibly ruthless.

They failed.

The Aztecs were incredibly ruthless.

They failed.

The British were the least-ruthless of the European Colonial powers, but actually retained many former colonies, and some (like Hong Kong) wish they had been retained, and they were the world hegemon (or closest thing to it) for centuries.

The USA has been the single most benevolent and soft-touch world hegemon in the history of the world. The cruelest and harshest things done under our hegemony, have been because we failed to clamp down sufficiently hard on 'allies' or pseudo-vassals to stop them from brutalizing their own people.

The USA has also held the most lopsided balance of power in world history. No other hegemon has ever held such a lopsided dominance of the world.


Every hegemon must be willing to be ruthless at the right time and place, but to pretend that it is the 'most ruthless' who will triumph is to be ignorant of the last millennium of European history at the least, and last century of world history.

It's funny, because before this post, I'd thought you were someone who had a decent grasp of civilization's ills, even if you had some funny ideas about how to deal with them.
You confuse "cruel" and "ruthless", and in dong so, you misrepresent and misunderstand what I said.

To use an oft-parodied example in faction: the gloating villain loses because he's sadistic, and that gives his enemies time to strike back at the last second. A ruthless villain wouldn't gloat. He'd just kill, without pity or remorse. And also without needless cruelty, because sadism is a frippery the ruthless can't and won't afford.
 
You confuse "cruel" and "ruthless", and in dong so, you misrepresent and misunderstand what I said.

To use an oft-parodied example in faction: the gloating villain loses because he's sadistic, and that gives his enemies time to strike back at the last second. A ruthless villain wouldn't gloat. He'd just kill, without pity or remorse. And also without needless cruelty, because sadism is a frippery the ruthless can't and won't afford.

If you are parsing out ruthlessness from cruelty, why were you using 'ruthless' in clear contrast to being moral?
 
If you are parsing out ruthlessness from cruelty, why were you using 'ruthless' in clear contrast to being moral?
Because ruthlessness requires the absence of morality. It doesn't imply the absence of discipline, but a cold practicality and willingness to do what's expedient.

Sadism is just stupid. Which is why Romans didn't crucify people for shits and giggles. But they did do it to make a point. They didn't raze Carthage for random fun, either. That was also about making a point. But neither was it about "justice" of any kind. Carthage had already been expended as a true rival. Rome had to be seen to be strong; to be absolute in its mastery.

And similarly, America doesn't seek to cast down Russia for some sadistic pleasure, but because it's a good move in a hard game. Neither is it done to help the Ukrainians. In fact, to the American interest, it's fine if every Ukrainian dies in this war. So long as it ends in Russia bled bone-dry.

Well, fair enough. It's not the sort of thing that appeals to me, but it's being pretty competently done. My big objection is to the hypocrites and morons who pretend or -- God help them -- actually believe that this whole thing has a moral component or motivation.
 
The German tribes and some isolated primitives weren't capable of contending. It wasn't a choice. Still, though, I'd call the Germanic peoples more ethical than Rome, to be sure (on average). In Germania, membership of tribes was typically voluntary, and whole families could and did 'secede' from one tribe and join another. It was disorganised and sometimes messy, but I'd argue that their premises about existence were more ethical than those of Rome.

For now we look at Rome, and Rome was ruthless. Rome exterminated whole tribes, enslaved people by the tens of thousands. Not even out of any malice, but out of simple cold practicality. Rome wiped Carthage from the map, and then (again out of practicality) rebuilt it in its own image.
My point exactly. Romans sometimes wiped out whole tribes and enslaved the survivors.
Germanic tribes?
What did you think they do, had Geneva convention? They let the wounded be finished off by wildlife, and sacrificed the survivors to the god of war, sometimes, if they didn't die of wounds, and weren't enslaved, because they did that too.
Much ethics. Very civilized. Not like those evil imperialists. You seem to be engaging in some combination of noble savage theory and mistaking scale of power for worse ethics of its use, so that a world power invading a a dozen primitive countries to colonize them in a semi-benevolent way is worse than a minor power invading one primitive country to maim, kill and burn because they don't have the physical capability to expand that activity to the whole world (for the moment).
That's Empire. That's what it takes.

America is the same. Utterly ruthless when it needs to be. You dispute it, but I see the only world power that has actually used atomic weapons. And I can respect that. But I don't pretend that a power operating in that arena is moral... or that it has space to be.
Weapons are just tools. Is killing 200,000 people with an atomic bomb worse than killing 500,000 with guns, blades or ropes?

"No more than" means, by definition "equal to or less than". Since you said "is no more moral than", your sentence means the same as "non-interventionism is equally moral to, or less moral than, pacifism". Your sentence excludes all other interpretation.

Therefore, I'm being generous by saying you equated them. The only alternative is that you intended to outright compare non-intervention negatively to pacifism.
Yes, that was my intention. And as you have admitted, your interpretation has specified my statement beyond how much i specified it myself. Which makes it a different statement, and you are not accusing me of trying to "weasel out" of your chosen interpretation of my intentionally unspecific statement, and calling that dishonesty.

The fact that you're now trying to weasel your way out of this illustrates how dishonmest you are. You could also just admit "oh, all right, I phrased that carelessly and what I wrote was wrong, but I actually ment something else".

But you never admit that, you just try to twist it so you don't have to admit fault.
You seem very eager to accuse others of dishonesty if they refuse to concur to your chosen interpretations of their statements that these statements do not contain.
And similarly, America doesn't seek to cast down Russia for some sadistic pleasure, but because it's a good move in a hard game. Neither is it done to help the Ukrainians. In fact, to the American interest, it's fine if every Ukrainian dies in this war. So long as it ends in Russia bled bone-dry.
What if these Ukrainians are willing to fight for their freedom from Russia or die trying?
If so, whether it is a good move or not, from their perspective American aid is a great favor and meme grade standing for freedom, not an example of ruthless realpolitik.
Or are you going to take from Ukrainians the right to decide what's better for them and say that they are better off being Russia's vassals than bleeding to not be them, regardless of how they feel about being Russia's vassals and all their experience with that?
 
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Yes, that was my intention. And as you have admitted, your interpretation has specified my statement beyond how much i specified it myself. Which makes it a different statement, and you are not accusing me of trying to "weasel out" of your chosen interpretation of my intentionally unspecific statement, and calling that dishonesty.
You're now accusing me of interpreting your statement too generously, and thereby misrepresenting it... by not accusing you of even further insanity.

Am I to understand that you wish to claim that you meant to say "non-interventionism is less moral than pacifism" (something that could theoretically be read into your statement, but makes little sense in the context), but that I misrepresented you by saying you equated the two?

Are you that desperate to avoid admitting that you said something dumb?

I think we're done here. As usual, you end up going in circles.
 
You're now accusing me of interpreting your statement too generously, and thereby misrepresenting it... by not accusing you of even further insanity.

Am I to understand that you wish to claim that you meant to say "non-interventionism is less moral than pacifism" (something that could theoretically be read into your statement, but makes little sense in the context), but that I misrepresented you by saying you equated the two?

Are you that desperate to avoid admitting that you said something dumb?

I think we're done here. As usual, you end up going in circles.
Or perhaps my lack of specificity in the statement was an expression of a lack of certainty? I could make an argument, and as i said, i definitely have a low opinion of both, just not sure which is lower.
 
as i said, i definitely have a low opinion of both, just not sure which is lower.
If you are uncertain about such estimations, we may conclude that insofar as you have made a judgement, you have judged them to be roughly... equal. Were it not so, you'd be able to make a clearer distinction.

We are back where we started, and this word game has yielded nothing.
 
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The answer seemed so obvious before I saw this meme. But if you transpose it to a Game Show Setting...

Fkkjo61XkAA5snr


People talk about Indonesia being a potential future great power, but never talk about its rival Outdonesia which is even more impressive.

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