Armchair General's DonbAss Derailed Discussion Thread (Topics Include History, Traps, and the Ongoing Slavic Civil War plus much much more)

Putin did try rapprochement, but USA replied with colour revolutions, the coup in Ukraine being the final nail in the coffin.

That "coup" (more of a revolution, actually) in Ukraine was in response to Yanukovych's authoritarianism, such as when he pressured four Ukrainian Constitutional Court judges to resign, put his political opponent Tymoshenko on trial and jailed her, altered Ukraine's election rules in order to give his side an advantage for the next election even though his opponents won the popular vote in Ukraine's 2012 parliamentary election, and used violence against peaceful protesters on the Maidan.

And color revolutions were primarily directed from below, not from above. They happened because Eastern Europeans wanted them to happen. Even Belarus had an attempted color revolution, for goodness sake!
 
That "coup" (more of a revolution, actually) in Ukraine was in response to Yanukovych's authoritarianism, such as when he pressured four Ukrainian Constitutional Court judges to resign, put his political opponent Tymoshenko on trial and jailed her, altered Ukraine's election rules in order to give his side an advantage for the next election even though his opponents won the popular vote in Ukraine's 2012 parliamentary election, and used violence against peaceful protesters on the Maidan.

And color revolutions were primarily directed from below, not from above. They happened because Eastern Europeans wanted them to happen. Even Belarus had an attempted color revolution, for goodness sake!
If by Authoritarianism you mean declining a trade deal/loan from the EU/IMF/western bankster cartel in favor of one from Russia which caused the Eurofanbois in Ukraine to throw a tantrum, and if by revolution you mean a plot hatched and supported by the US state department, with prominent Neocon grifter Victoria 'Fuck the EU' Nuland's little rant and orders to the local ambassador captured on tape, then yes.
 
If by Authoritarianism you mean declining a trade deal/loan from the EU/IMF/western bankster cartel in favor of one from Russia which caused the Eurofanbois in Ukraine to throw a tantrum, and if by revolution you mean a plot hatched and supported by the US state department, with prominent Neocon grifter Victoria 'Fuck the EU' Nuland's little rant and orders to the local ambassador captured on tape, then yes.

I specifically mentioned what I meant by "authoritarianism" here. And while Nuland and Co. might have been quite pleased with a change of government in Ukraine, I strongly doubt that they were the ones who were directing the Maidan protestors to do what they did. As in, I think that the Maidan protesters would have done the exact same thing with or without Nuland and Co.
 

What is the maximum number of Ukrainians that the EU as a whole can realistically accept if Russia will theoretically conquer all of Ukraine? As many as want to come to the EU? Even if the EU will already be in a recession by then?

What do you think, @Marduk?
 

What is the maximum number of Ukrainians that the EU as a whole can realistically accept if Russia will theoretically conquer all of Ukraine? As many as want to come to the EU? Even if the EU will already be in a recession by then?

What do you think, @Marduk?
If spread over few years and offset with a reduction in third world migration (quite a number of EU countries have that in 6 digits), easily.
Of course they keyword is "if", of course it's possible to screw it up.
 
If spread over few years and offset with a reduction in third world migration (quite a number of EU countries have that in 6 digits), easily.
Of course they keyword is "if", of course it's possible to screw it up.

Good to hear! I really hope that even if Putin wins the war tactically, he will end up losing the war strategically by having most of Ukraine's human capital emigrate to the West.
 

This Baron can enlighten me as to why exactly Ukrainian NATO membership is any more threatening towards Russia than Baltic NATO membership is. I mean right now, not based on how long each of these countries' historical connection to Russia is. The distance to Moscow is about the same is both cases, after all.

Should countries' assessments of their own security risks in general get huge deference? Because if so, then Austria-Hungary would have been justified in attacking Serbia in 1914, Imperial Germany would have been justified in launching a preventative war against the Franco-Russians in 1913, and Nazi Germany would have been justified in attacking Czechoslovakia and Poland in 1938-1939. If, however, one believes that countries' assessments of their own security risks does NOT automatically justify aggression towards neighboring countries, then it's entirely reasonable for one to see why exactly so many Westerners are criticizing Russia over its invasion of Ukraine.
 
Good to hear! I really hope that even if Putin wins the war tactically, he will end up losing the war strategically by having most of Ukraine's human capital emigrate to the West.
What in the last few years of Putin's and his lackey's behavior gave you the idea that they give a damn about keeping any human capital?

Obvious Assad simp is obvious.
Should countries' assessments of their own security risks in general get huge deference?
No, because, as this very example demonstrated, by cunning asshole logic, this encourages countries with ambitions to have eyebrow raising security assessments that expand like a balloon to fit whatever mold their ambitions create.

Because if so, then Austria-Hungary would have been justified in attacking Serbia in 1914, Imperial Germany would have been justified in launching a preventative war against the Franco-Russians in 1913, and Nazi Germany would have been justified in attacking Czechoslovakia and Poland in 1938-1939. If, however, one believes that countries' assessments of their own security risks does NOT automatically justify aggression towards neighboring countries, then it's entirely reasonable for one to see why exactly so many Westerners are criticizing Russia over its invasion of Ukraine.
Well yeah, that's what i'm getting at. If you accept that kind of argument, then finding justifications for any, particularly land border based wars becomes childishly easy, not that it's ever very hard, but come on, this is too easy. It's so easily abuseable that by such logic Poland could simply decide that for the sake of it's LEGITIMATE SECURITY INTERESTS Germany and Russia should no longer exist.
 
Ukraine must belive,that they arleady won.
Why? important ukrainian ambassador ,Andrij Melnyk,provoked Poland few days ago lying that UPA genocide on poles during WW2 was no worst then polish counter terrorist actions before WW2,and get promoted for that.

They really must think,that they do not need Poland anymore.
 
and used violence against peaceful protesters on the Maidan.

Unlike you I followed the events in 2014 and opposition titushki were fighting police and government titushki from the day one initiating violence just as often, if not more than the government side and were not shy about showing it on social media, something that Western media completely ignored, selling the narrative crafted by professional PR companies.

And color revolutions were primarily directed from below, not from above.

Bullshit, color revolutions were a mechanism of replacing less pliable elites with more pliable elites and were directed and financed from abroad. People were simply dupes for higher interests and were rewarded with more of the same, as the new, State Department approved, elites proved just as corrupt and autocratic as the previous ruling elites.

I specifically mentioned what I meant by "authoritarianism" here.
''Authoritarianism'' - stuff that people not approved by State Department do and people aproved by SD totally don't

And while Nuland and Co. might have been quite pleased with a change of government in Ukraine, I strongly doubt that they were the ones who were directing the Maidan protestors to do what they did. As in, I think that the Maidan protesters would have done the exact same thing with or without Nuland and Co.

Riiiight, without the 5 billion dollars that State Department spent in paying the salaries of Maidan militias and bribes to state officials to defect during the coup, the Maidan coup would have been just as successful (hint it wouldn't). And I'm sure the Maidan coup junta let the Nuland pick the composition of the government because they were impressed by her wisdom and not because State Department basically owned them.
 
They are still useful to the USA, which really does not care if Poland gets offended, as it really does not have any other chance but to do their bidding.
 
They are still useful to the USA, which really does not care if Poland gets offended, as it really does not have any other chance but to do their bidding.
Sad true.With normal Russia we could talk,with Kgbstan...they really belive in Dugin shit - which mean,that they would genocide us if they win.
 
What in the last few years of Putin's and his lackey's behavior gave you the idea that they give a damn about keeping any human capital?


Obvious Assad simp is obvious.

No, because, as this very example demonstrated, by cunning asshole logic, this encourages countries with ambitions to have eyebrow raising security assessments that expand like a balloon to fit whatever mold their ambitions create.


Well yeah, that's what i'm getting at. If you accept that kind of argument, then finding justifications for any, particularly land border based wars becomes childishly easy, not that it's ever very hard, but come on, this is too easy. It's so easily abuseable that by such logic Poland could simply decide that for the sake of it's LEGITIMATE SECURITY INTERESTS Germany and Russia should no longer exist.

Russian nationalist blogger Anatoly Karlin said here that the main purpose of Russia's invasion is to acquire Ukraine's human capital and that NATO expansion is just a smokescreen for this:


Yeah, ultimately what this means is that larger countries can attack smaller countries at ease due to their "legitimate security concerns" while small countries can do nothing about this. How about NATO attacks Belarus due to its legitimate security concerns about the Suwalki Corridor, eh? Russia wouldn't like that very much, would it?
 


Cokehead of Kiev is going full Downfall Hitler.

Ukrop Himmler is under arrest and Ukrop Allgemeine-SS is being purged after several major screw ups, including the defection of several Ukrops who don't want to be Nazis anymore
 


Cokehead of Kiev is going full Downfall Hitler.

Ukrop Himmler is under arrest and Ukrop Allgemeine-SS is being purged after several major screw ups, including the defection of several Ukrops who don't want to be Nazis anymore

I mean.

Putin has done a lot worse for this conflict.
He just did it with all of his veteran and volunteer VDV...
 


Cokehead of Kiev is going full Downfall Hitler.

Ukrop Himmler is under arrest and Ukrop Allgemeine-SS is being purged after several major screw ups, including the defection of several Ukrops who don't want to be Nazis anymore


You seem to keep rather conveniently forgetting that Zelansky is JEWISH. And last I checked the Russians were driven back from Kiev a while ago.

You also seem a bit rather obsessed with referring to the Ukrainians as a whole as Nazis, when it's the Russians who invaded and don't seem too bothered with inflicting atrocities on civilians. But then again maybe it's more convenient for you so you can enjoy and get off on the images of dead Ukrainians.

Shitpost as you wish, doesn't change what I said.
 
Russian nationalist blogger Anatoly Karlin said here that the main purpose of Russia's invasion is to acquire Ukraine's human capital and that NATO expansion is just a smokescreen for this:
Being a nationalist, he's target audience for Putin's very much not nationalist but imperial elitist/corruptocrat oligarchy and its cons, and here it shows.
Human capital? We don't do that in corruptocrat oligarchy, we call it "competition to our precious political positions".
Naturally the occupation, as we are seeing it in areas Russia controls, will drive away most of human capital the war didn't, and they will mostly head west. Criminals, useful idiots, conmen, and people too dull, old or poor to move away will remain. Meanwhile thanks to the increasing international isolation a lot of Russia's own human capital is leaving now.
The precise terms used, ironically, tell the story accurately. It's about lands, not people. Corruptocrats of any sort are both willing and able to do profitable things with extra lands, and divvying up control over loads of newly conquered lands is a grand party for all.
The people on the conquered lands are just a somewhat useful labor force at best, and a pain in the ass who want part of the spoils for their silly healthcare and retirements and shit at worst, and that's without even getting into the possibility of guerilla warfare.
It's also why Russian forces don't shy away from infrastructure damage, just like the driven out population, they don't mind, and don't plan on rebuilding much of it, as most of it is simply superfluous to their resource exploitation focused business plans.
 
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Being a nationalist, he's target audience for Putin's very much not nationalist but imperial elitist/corruptocrat oligarchy and its cons, and here it shows.
Human capital? We don't do that in corruptocrat oligarchy, we call it "competition to our precious political positions".
Naturally the occupation, as we are seeing it in areas Russia controls, will drive away most of human capital the war didn't, and they will mostly head west. Criminals, useful idiots, conmen, and people too dull, old or poor to move away will remain. Meanwhile thanks to the increasing international isolation a lot of Russia's own human capital is leaving now.
The precise terms used, ironically, tell the story accurately. It's about lands, not people. Corruptocrats of any sort are both willing and able to do profitable things with extra lands, and divvying up control over loads of newly conquered lands is a grand party for all.
The people on the conquered lands are just a somewhat useful labor force at best, and a pain in the ass who want part of the spoils for their silly healthcare and retirements and shit at worst, and that's without even getting into the possibility of guerilla warfare.
It's also why Russian forces don't shy away from infrastructure damage, just like the driven out population, they don't mind, and don't plan on rebuilding much of it, as most of it is simply superfluous to their resource exploitation focused business plans.
NY Times?

You trying to tell us your a RINO or what?
 

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