Armchair General's DonbAss Derailed Discussion Thread (Topics Include History, Traps, and the Ongoing Slavic Civil War plus much much more)

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
The point is that USA does it for freedom, everyone else does it for wrong reasons. Unless they are American allies, then they do it for right reasons as well.
The USA does it because like the USSR they are a country built around a quasi-religion, in their case Liberal hegemony as described by Mearsheimer, behind that hegemony, there are all sorts of greedy blob and western Oligarchic interests.
There is a western uni-party, and LBJ and Bush Sr. had the same backers and buddies.


Furthermore, all sorts of other groups in the USA push to get it to do stuff, be it Poles making it impossible for the USA to improve relations with the USSR and the likes of Brezinski having a cosntant hateboner for the Russians, to the US China lobby pushing for US involvement in Asia because they thought they could Christianize China and turn it into USA 2.0.
However many of those were either fed lies from their buddies on the ground outright, or they were lying through their teeth because they want a particular outcome.
Like our dear Polish friends supporting what is a very corrupt regime infested with dumb Nazi larpers, and bringing economic trouble to the whole of the EU/West.
 
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Battlegrinder

Someday we will win, no matter what it takes.
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I support Russia for the simple reason that they haven't fucked up over half of the world for the supremacy of the US elites.

True, they did it for the supremacy of Russian elites.

I support Russia because hasn't chained my countries into an alliance that is more submission than genuine partnership.

What exactly would you call the Soviet Union, or the Warsaw pact if you want it purely in military terms?
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
They should also be demanding the removal of all western NGOs as well.
Why, if I were Putin I'd want them to make the rump state of Ukraine into a bigger and bigger shithole, I will also have all of Russia's worse criminals building a great wall of the Don river, with people who finish their quota getting very, very little supervision.

All of the people of interest to Russia, if they are smart, will be moving west.
Some of those people are criminals, oligarch proxies, mobsters, they will get a lot of nice, shiny guns with which to make things even worse.
At this point, I am sure Russia will want the leftovers of Ukraine to be a very costly badlands for Europe.

Also, hint hint nudge nudge the Donbass and Odessa republics to get into fentanol and ecstasy production(Nazis love benzadrine, they invented the stuff), and that maybe some of all those weapons they are confiscating might be sold off to "reputable pan-slavic businessmen out west"
 
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Marduk

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Why, if I were Putin I'd want them to make the rump state of Ukraine into a bigger and bigger shithole, I will also have all of Russia's worse criminals building a great wall of the Don river, with people who finish their quota getting very, very little supervision.

All of the people of interest to Russia, if they are smart, will be moving west.
Some of those people are criminals, oligarch proxies, mobsters, they will get a lot of nice, shiny guns with which to make things even worse.
At this point, I am sure Russia will want the leftovers of Ukraine to be a very costly badlands for Europe.

Also, hint hint nudge nudge the Donbass and Odessa republics to get into fentanol and ecstasy production(Nazis love benzadrine, they invented the stuff), and that maybe some of all those weapons they are confiscating might be sold off to "reputable pan-slavic businessmen out west"
We have been through this already.
Those who live in glass houses have no business throwing stones.
share-with-alcohol-or-drug-use-disorders-1-768x542.png

I can't even imagine how hard the shitty people's republics would hit their own stash.
Likewise, muh guns will make criminals unstoppable is an argument straight from US leftist idiots.
But keep simping for soon to be North Korea's bigger cousin.
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
Are you trying to seem like some sort of fucking psychopath?
Just extrapolating from Chinese and US covert warfare tactics.
Unrestricted Warfare - Wikipedia
Real Life Air America: CIA Exposed Running a Covert Drug Smuggling Airline

The operation was discussed on an episode of PBS’ Frontline, titled “Guns, Drugs and the CIA,” which aired in 1988. The documentary looked at the Meo Tribe, whose members served as “the foot soldiers of a secret CIA army” in Laos, just across the border from North Vietnam.


Ron Rickenbach, former official at the U.S. Agency for International Development, served in Laos during the 1960s. He told Frontline that for the soldiers involved, they initially believed that what they were doing was “in the best interests of America,” even if it meant being involved “in some not so desirable aspects of the drug traffic.”


“These people were willing to take up arms. We needed to stop the Red threat and people believed that in that vein we made, you know, certain compromises or certain trade-offs for a larger good,”
Rickenbach said. “Growing opium was a natural agricultural enterprise for these people and they had been doing it for many years before the Americans ever got there. When we got there they continued to do so.”


Fred Platt, a former pilot in Laos, told Frontline about the incentives the Meo tribesman had to take part in the trade.



“When a farmer raised a crop of opium, what he got for his year’s worth of work was the equivalent of 35 to 40 U.S. dollars,” Platt said. “That amount of opium, were it refined into morphine base, then into morphine, then into heroin and appeared on the streets of New York, that 35-dollar crop of opium would be worth 50, 60, a hundred thousand dollars in 1969—maybe a million dollars today.


How does Air America come into play? According to PBS’ Frontline, the CIA’s secret airline played the role of both a transportation service for the Meo farmers’ cash crop, and the only lifeline between the tribespeople and the outside world—to the point where Meo children “came to believe that rice fell from the sky.”



While Air America reportedly only operated from 1950 to 1976, the CIA’s obsession with opium has continued to flourish over the years.


The CIA supported the Mujahideen rebels in Afghanistan—in the name of fighting the Soviet Army—in the 1980s. According to a 2009 report from the United States Institute of Peace, the CIA turned a blind eye to the group’s involvement in the opium trade.


The U.S. then encountered Afghanistan’s poppy-rich land again in 2001, when it invaded the country. In the years since the invasion, Afghanistan’s opium production, which is “an important source of funding for the Taliban,” has increased 35-fold.

In early 1986, the 42-year-old Massachusetts Democrat stood almost alone in the U.S. Senate demanding answers about the emerging evidence that CIA-backed Contras were filling their coffers by collaborating with drug traffickers then flooding U.S. borders with cocaine from South America… In taking on the inquiry, Kerry challenged President Ronald Reagan at the height of his power, at a time he was calling the Contras the “moral equals of the Founding Fathers.” Kerry’s questions represented a particular embarrassment to Vice President George H.W. Bush, whose responsibilities included overseeing U.S. drug-interdiction policies… Kerry’s probe infuriated Reagan’s White House, which was pushing Congress to restore military funding for the Contras. Some in the administration also saw Kerry’s investigation as a threat to the secrecy surrounding the Contra supply operation, which was being run illegally by White House aide Oliver North and members of Bush’s vice presidential staff.

The CIA loves drugs and drug dealers.

China is fighting a covert war with the USA by supplying you with fentanol.
The USA, the west and the Poles in particular escalated this.
And then we have the Opium wars, where the British literally attacked the Chinese because the Chinese were not letting British traders sell drugs in China.
I imagine that if Putin is to propose a joint-venture in this project to Xi, the Chinese will be like, hell yeah, how many trainloads do you need and how much of it is going to the UK.
EDIT: Also Castro did it to the USA, too, by sending all his gangsters to Florida.

This is how these types of unconventional warfare escalate and develop.
We have been through this already.
Those who live in glass houses have no business throwing stones.
share-with-alcohol-or-drug-use-disorders-1-768x542.png

I can't even imagine how hard the shitty people's republics would hit their own stash.
Likewise, muh guns will make criminals unstoppable is an argument straight from US leftist idiots.
But keep simping for soon to be North Korea's bigger cousin.

dw4olc8deqaz.png

Dunno if it is the 'Overconfidence' or 'National Pride' stage, though.
 
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Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
We have been through this already.
Those who live in glass houses have no business throwing stones.
share-with-alcohol-or-drug-use-disorders-1-768x542.png

I can't even imagine how hard the shitty people's republics would hit their own stash.
Likewise, muh guns will make criminals unstoppable is an argument straight from US leftist idiots.
But keep simping for soon to be North Korea's bigger cousin.
At least we have the original of this meme, and we know what stage its at.
1*6-VKs3D_4GgBxpU5b6y7Pw.png
photo-2022-03-11-11-37-04.jpg


photo-2022-03-11-11-37-05.jpg


haha.jpg


EDIT:

Hello all,
Yep, it's mod colors. I've been tracking this thread. And I am not impressed. This is the War College. We're supposed to be having a sober,
reasoned discussion of what is going on in this war from a military standpoint, not having an exercise in poo-flinging on who the hell is right. That to me is a discussion for the Politics channel. I speak in my mod colors because I am very concerned about what's going on here.

This war, like any war, is a sad waste of human life and potential. We're seeing the spectacle of a Russian army shelling the birthplace of modern Russia into dust. We're seeing the specter of a modern, full-stop, conventional conflict stalk Europe again. The Sietch could and should have been a place to discuss this with some really good analysis. We certainly have the skill set. Instead? We get shills. We get people saying things I'd expect from the mouths of men like Heydrich and Eichmann. Yeah, that's right, I said it. I am an Eastern European Jew by descent. I've probably got distant cousins on both sides in this mess. I am sure I have distant relatives in the soil at Babi Yar.

So do me a favor, if a post seems political? Post it on the Political channel? If it's a sober analysis of what the hell is going on and what you think *might* happen fra military standpoint? Then post it here.

Sorry about this, didn't see your post, please banish both mine and @Marduk s posts to the Slav civil war thread.
But frankly, he is too close emotionally to this to be objective, and I probably am, too, and the only reason we are seeing each-other's posts is because I can't block him.
 

TheRejectionist

TheRejectionist
True, they did it for the supremacy of Russian elites.



What exactly would you call the Soviet Union, or the Warsaw pact if you want it purely in military terms?

  1. The first hasn't outreached beyond the former member states of the USSR.
  2. We are talking about the Russian federation not the USSR
  3. The Russian Federation has attacked : Georgia, Ukraine. And after they expressed in NATO. Your country has tendecies to invade without moral justification.
 

Battlegrinder

Someday we will win, no matter what it takes.
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Obozny
The first hasn't outreached beyond the former member states of the USSR.

And most of our interventions have been in countries that fall under the Monroe doctrine, so I guess we're fine.

We are talking about the Russian federation not the USSR

Very convenient that you write off all of Russia's cold war shenanigans as being the USSR's fault, as if the USSR was some totally alien entity that has no real connection or relation to modern Russia, but the US is stuck with its cold war stuff.

The Russian Federation has attacked : Georgia, Ukraine. And after they expressed in NATO. Your country has tendecies to invade without moral justification.

Since the cold war, the US has engaged in military action against countries that invaded and tried to conquer other countries or were murdering innocent civilians, were terrorists that attacked us first, or had no government/an evil government and we attempted to impose a stable, functional democracy onto them.

Russia has invaded its neighbors because they considered joining a purely defensive alliance designed to protect people from Russian invasion, or because they're not real countries and should be part of Russia anyway.

Of those two, the US is the only one that has anything that can be described as a moral justification. "How dare you try to position your country so it can fight back against us if we attack you" is not in any way a position based in moral principles.
 

TheRejectionist

TheRejectionist
And most of our interventions have been in countries that fall under the Monroe doctrine, so I guess we're fine.



Very convenient that you write off all of Russia's cold war shenanigans as being the USSR's fault, as if the USSR was some totally alien entity that has no real connection or relation to modern Russia, but the US is stuck with its cold war stuff.



Since the cold war, the US has engaged in military action against countries that invaded and tried to conquer other countries or were murdering innocent civilians, were terrorists that attacked us first, or had no government/an evil government and we attempted to impose a stable, functional democracy onto them.

Russia has invaded its neighbors because they considered joining a purely defensive alliance designed to protect people from Russian invasion, or because they're not real countries and should be part of Russia anyway.

Of those two, the US is the only one that has anything that can be described as a moral justification. "How dare you try to position your country so it can fight back against us if we attack you" is not in any way a position based in moral principles.

  1. What a perfect excuse !
  2. Considering that the first three leaders had barely anything Russian about them and the ideology was of German origin I do (partially) separate pre-Soviet and post-Soviet Russia as two separate separate entities from the Soviets.
  3. Do you really expect me to believe that fairytale ?
  4. Defending from what ? The downtrodden of the rest of the world ?
 

Battlegrinder

Someday we will win, no matter what it takes.
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What a perfect excuse !

It's essentially the same as your "well, we're only really awful to former Soviet countries" logic.

that the first three leaders had barely anything Russian about them and the ideology was of German origin I do (partially) separate pre-Soviet and post-Soviet Russia as two separate separate entities from the Soviets.

That's like saying nazi Germany wasn't really Germany because Hilter was Austrian. A government, even an authoritarian one, is more than than the man at the top.

Do you really expect me to believe that fairytale ?

"That fairytale" being...what, that our military actions over the past 30 years have been motivated by self defense or a self declared moral duty to punish bad guys and spread democracy? It seems entirely consistent with our actions overseas. What else did Afghanistan have that we wanted? Sand and rocks? Even if we'd seized control of Iraq's oil production and taken it for ourselves, which we didn't, would it have ever even covered the cost if the war and occupation, let alone turned a profit?

Defending from what ? The downtrodden of the rest of the world ?

Yes. Just because they're not a peer power doesn't mean they're not capable of causing considerable damage, something we learned 20 years ago at the cost of two skyscrapers in NYC.
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
What’s this I hear about Azov gathering Ethnic Russian from Mariupol and blowing up a theater?
Russia covering up its most recent major war crime.

Nice war crime coverup you have there.
You forgot the "This news brought to you by the MSM of Kiev" tag there, bucko.
 

Captain X

Well-known member
Osaul
I support Russia for the simple reason that they haven't fucked up over half of the world for the supremacy of the US elites.
You're right - they did it for their own elites.

I support Russia because hasn't chained my countries into an alliance that is more submission than genuine partnership.
The Warsaw Pact disagrees. As do Chechnya and Georgia, and frankly Belarus and Kazakhstan, not to mention Ukraine now.

I support Russia because they have been the ones offering equal partnerships, which were turn down since the elites might just treat my countries as banana republics if given the slightest of reasons.
:ROFLMAO:


Russia doesnt want to occupy all of Ukraine. Thier goals are clear..neutralise Ukraine, pull off the russian speaking areas east of the Dnieper and secure the flow of water to the crimean.
If that were the case, Putin wouldn't have made a point of calling Ukraine an artificial country.


Why, if I were Putin I'd want them to make the rump state of Ukraine into a bigger and bigger shithole, I will also have all of Russia's worse criminals building a great wall of the Don river, with people who finish their quota getting very, very little supervision.

All of the people of interest to Russia, if they are smart, will be moving west.
Some of those people are criminals, oligarch proxies, mobsters, they will get a lot of nice, shiny guns with which to make things even worse.
At this point, I am sure Russia will want the leftovers of Ukraine to be a very costly badlands for Europe.

Also, hint hint nudge nudge the Donbass and Odessa republics to get into fentanol and ecstasy production(Nazis love benzadrine, they invented the stuff), and that maybe some of all those weapons they are confiscating might be sold off to "reputable pan-slavic businessmen out west"
I'm just going to put this here for future reference. :)
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
All western and UA media, or few usual pro-Russian propagandists, who to believe?
For one Russians can't even get their story straight, was it Azov false flag blowing up civilians, or was the place an Azov HQ bombed by Russia?
Generally I prefer to follow news outlets that do not call me a terrorist, "worse than ISIS", Muhsoggykneesist, istaphobe and that pushes crap like the Ghost of Kiev.

Anyways, here is Colonel Macgregor with some redpills, like for example:
1) There is a deficit of truth in the West.
2) Zelenski is bullshitting.
3) Russia is winning.
4) Azov are fanatics that actively stopped the evacuation of civillians.

But I am sure you don't care about any of that stuff, you didn't the last 20 times.

 

Marduk

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Generally I prefer to follow news outlets that do not call me a terrorist, "worse than ISIS", Muhsoggykneesist, istaphobe and that pushes crap like the Ghost of Kiev.

Anyways, here is Colonel Macgregor with some redpills, like for example:
1) There is a deficit of truth in the West.
2) Zelenski is bullshitting.
3) Russia is winning.
4) Azov are fanatics that actively stopped the evacuation of civillians.

But I am sure you don't care about any of that stuff, you didn't the last 20 times.


Excuse me, are you trying to convince me that a podcast run by a leftist activist of very long record going way beyond even the Russia\Crimea stuff who happens to be taking Russian state money through RT and Sputnik is an objective source?
Also Alternet, Al Jazeera and NYT. Very objective, right wing conservative and pro-west.
 
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Marduk

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I don't understand the Ukrainian insistence on keeping some of their best forces at the Donbass front. Like seriously their capital is under siege what's the point in staying there and risking being encircled?
a) Moving them is risky and would incur losses, withdrawals under attack do that. Meanwhile the positions themselves are well stockpiled and fortified due to being the skirmish line for years.
b) Moving them would grant a morale boost to the enemy.
c) The ceded territory may need to be taken back at greater cost in the future.
d) The encirclement potential is real, but the sources claiming that it is just about to happen are so far bullshit - consider the fact that they were claiming that since the beginning of the war. Brought to you by the same people who greatly exaggerate Russian territorial gains.
e) Said forces in their fortified positions are tying down a considerable amount of enemy resources, which could be redirected elsewhere if they did withdraw, in addition to unblocking some potential logistical routes.
Sounds a hell of a lot better than CNN if you ask me.

If you can't attack the messenger, then attack the message.
The messenger is to the left of CNN, on this and many other topics.
The messenger is so left wing that even wikipedia calls him far left, and that's with wikipedia editors generally being pretty left wing.
If that sounds good to you, i have no choice but to consider you a leftist. And i just don't trust leftist sources.
 

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