United States Christianity, History, and US Politics

Matthew 7:6 - Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.

I’d like to remind the Christians here of this verse, and I’m guilty of this too. Stop trying to reach out and open yourself up to people who hate your faith and your beliefs. Don’t treat them kindly and respectfully and share with them when they want to trample it and tear you to pieces.
 
Then why does basically everyone use it as justification for their anti-gay bigotry? See this, right here, what you and a few others are doing, comes off as someone going
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after the fact.
Are you trolling or are you just unable to read and think? I'm not trying to insult you here, but you do realize that most of Leviticus is a law code right? That means that ancient jews Christians and Muslims had judicial jurisprudence and discussions on how to apply the law, when to apply in, etc. Just like in modern courts and parlimants, not all laws apply all the time to all people. Some only apply to men, some only apply to women, some only to the priestly caste, some only at certain times etc. So someone telling you something is'nt "ackchyually" like some fat nerd at a 40k debate they are trying to educate you.

Which is pretty fucked up if you put even a little bit of thought into it. But that's besides the point. The point is, you're already picking and choosing, so it doesn't pass muster to claim you're simply following "God's law" when you've shown you won't in other instances. All you are doing is searching for an excuse. You know how I know? I used to do the same exact thing. I was very much the anti-gay bigot myself when I was a Christian, and I'd cite you every passage that had something to say on the matter and just kind of ignore all the other stuff, because teh geys wanting to get married and force Christians to cater their weddings for them was what I cared about at the time.
How is it fucked up?
Also no Christians aren't picking and choosing any more than you are to modern legal codes. I'm going to assume you support the laws of the United States of America right? Well if I came at you and said "Ha you hypocrite you sometimes speed 5 miles over the speed limit, so you can't look down on serial killing rapists, both are against the law!" You'd think I was a retard. Well you are doing the same thing only in regards to the religious law of the old testament. Also if the old ceremonial laws still applied, then Christians would not neccesarily be at fault for wearing mixed clothing if they don't know what their clothing was made out of, however in that case a Christian should try and support a law that would make the FDA or other regulatory agency ban the sale of clothes that are of mixed fabrics. The differance is when you buy something you don't always look at the label and know everything, back in those times people frequently made their own clothes so you knew what you were making and how it was done, so in the modern day it is possible to wear clothes of mixed fabric without knowing about it, but it is not possible to knowingly have gay sex accidently.
 
Because, as you've been told repeatedly and seemingly refuse to acknowledge, that edict was not repealed by the new covenant and we are still bound to it.
Which is still an example of how you are picking and choosing, it's just that now you're pawning responsibility off on church officials.

Also, I'd like you to point to some examples of "basically everyone" using this as justification, because I've skimmed a few church websites discussing homosexuality, and they don't align with your characterization of their arguments.
Church websites may not put that on them, but when I was a Christian, that was not only my go-to passage, it was everyone else's that I knew, too. I've also seen it online on all kinds of different forums when I've seen the topic come up, and it even came up here, which is why we even have the argument going on now. It's amusing, because just above in the same post, you were just defending it being used, and now it's like you're claiming it never gets used in spite of all my past experience otherwise, and even just what's been posted in this thread. So basically, you're trying to have it both ways.

You’re a clown.
Right back at ya. ;)
 
Which is still an example of how you are picking and choosing, it's just that now you're pawning responsibility off on church officials.

Precisely what sort of Christian did you allegedly used to be, that you are under the impression the New Covenant is something composed by church officials?

Church websites may not put that on them, but when I was a Christian, that was not only my go-to passage, it was everyone else's that I knew, too.

You think the New Covenant is the composition of church officials, I'm not at all surprised that your views on sexual morality were likewise ill-informed, or that your presumably just as mis-educated peers were likewise wrong. But that is a problem with you specifically being ignorant, not all Christianity.

I've also seen it online on all kinds of different forums when I've seen the topic come up, and it even came up here, which is why we even have the argument going on now. It's amusing, because just above in the same post, you were just defending it being used, and now it's like you're claiming it never gets used in spite of all my past experience otherwise, and even just what's been posted in this thread. So basically, you're trying to have it both ways.

It came up here because you brought it up, not because someone else did, and while I'm sure it is used to some degree, on a casual skim it is not used the way you are claiming it is, and you're not backing up your claim.


There's a slight difference of importance between nebulous "church officials" and the Apostle Peter's inspired words recorded directly in the Bible itself.

Also, Jesus. Mark 14:24.
 
Are you trolling or are you just unable to read and think? I'm not trying to insult you here, but you do realize that most of Leviticus is a law code right? That means that ancient jews Christians and Muslims had judicial jurisprudence and discussions on how to apply the law, when to apply in, etc. Just like in modern courts and parlimants, not all laws apply all the time to all people. Some only apply to men, some only apply to women, some only to the priestly caste, some only at certain times etc. So someone telling you something is'nt "ackchyually" like some fat nerd at a 40k debate they are trying to educate you.
Sure it is. This has been nothing more than an exercise in moving the goal posts. It's been pointed out by more than just myself that anti-gay bigotry tends to be justified by a specific passage in Leviticus. When it gets pointed out that there are other passages, you go "ackchyually" there are these other passages in the NT that can get used, too, just glossing over the fact that the only reason we're even having this conversation is because of how, more often then not, Leviticus gets used. And after being pressed on that, it's shifted to "ackchyually new covenant."

How is it fucked up?
Death for being gay.

Also no Christians aren't picking and choosing any more than you are to modern legal codes.
Yes, you are. I and others have already pointed out one of the most common examples of it. Slavery would be another example of it. But the fact is, religion actually has changed quite a bit over the centuries. I guarantee you that your grandparents held to things that you don't. I guarantee you that Christians in 1500 held to things that you don't.

I'm going to assume you support the laws of the United States of America right? Well if I came at you and said "Ha you hypocrite you sometimes speed 5 miles over the speed limit, so you can't look down on serial killing rapists, both are against the law!"
Are you comparing consenting gay men having sex to serial rape, even just in terms of severity? That's kind of what I'm getting at.

Also if the old ceremonial laws still applied, then Christians would not neccesarily be at fault for wearing mixed clothing if they don't know what their clothing was made out of, however in that case a Christian should try and support a law that would make the FDA or other regulatory agency ban the sale of clothes that are of mixed fabrics.
And now we've come back from claiming that no one is bound to follow it to making excuses for it.

The differance is when you buy something you don't always look at the label and know everything, back in those times people frequently made their own clothes so you knew what you were making and how it was done, so in the modern day it is possible to wear clothes of mixed fabric without knowing about it, but it is not possible to knowingly have gay sex accidently.
And now we're back at picking and choosing what parts of the Bible we want to actually follow by way of rationalization.
 
Precisely what sort of Christian did you allegedly used to be, that you are under the impression the New Covenant is something composed by church officials?
Lutheran.

You think the New Covenant is the composition of church officials, I'm not at all surprised that your views on sexual morality were likewise ill-informed, or that your presumably just as mis-educated peers were likewise wrong. But that is a problem with you specifically being ignorant, not all Christianity.
If I am ignorant, so is a significant portion of Christianity. My views on sexual morality are informed by logic, so if you think that's ill-informed, that just tells me something about you.


It came up here because you brought it up, not because someone else did, and while I'm sure it is used to some degree, on a casual skim it is not used the way you are claiming it is, and you're not backing up your claim.
First off, I'm not the one who brought it up. Secondly, has continually been used all the time, and has been used here as well. Thirdly, if this was meaningless, you wouldn't keep insisting on defending it and making excuses for it.
 
Sure it is. This has been nothing more than an exercise in moving the goal posts. It's been pointed out by more than just myself that anti-gay bigotry tends to be justified by a specific passage in Leviticus. When it gets pointed out that there are other passages, you go "ackchyually" there are these other passages in the NT that can get used, too, just glossing over the fact that the only reason we're even having this conversation is because of how, more often then not, Leviticus gets used. And after being pressed on that, it's shifted to "ackchyually new covenant."

Are you seriously going to make me copy-paste the bit from the catechism of 1649 that quotes Genesis not Leviticus to condemn the sin of Sodom, again?

Q. 928. What is the second?
A. The sin of Sodom, or carnal sin against nature, which is a voluntary shedding of the seed of nature, out of the due use of marriage, or lust with a different sex.
Q. 929. What is the scripture proof of this?
A. Out of Gen. xix. 13. where we read of the Sodomites, and their sin. “We will destroy this place because the cry of them hath increased before our Lord, who hath sent us to destroy them,” (and they were burnt with fire from heaven.)
 
If I am ignorant, so is a significant portion of Christianity. My views on sexual morality are informed by logic, so if you think that's ill-informed, that just tells me something about you.

The fact that you got a poor theological education does not imply all other Christians were similarly mis-educated.

First off, I'm not the one who brought it up. Secondly, has continually been used all the time, and has been used here as well. Thirdly, if this was meaningless, you wouldn't keep insisting on defending it and making excuses for it.

1. Fair, but given the person that did bring it first also has no understanding of christianity, that still doesn't prove your point.
2. Not proven and no it hasn't.
3. I didn't say it was meaningless nor have I been "making excuses" for it, unless you consider telling you that you are wrong and don't know what you're talking about to be "making excuses".
 
Sure it is. This has been nothing more than an exercise in moving the goal posts. It's been pointed out by more than just myself that anti-gay bigotry tends to be justified by a specific passage in Leviticus. When it gets pointed out that there are other passages, you go "ackchyually" there are these other passages in the NT that can get used, too, just glossing over the fact that the only reason we're even having this conversation is because of how, more often then not, Leviticus gets used. And after being pressed on that, it's shifted to "ackchyually new covenant."
Because you ignoramus that is the most clear condemnation but there are others in the Bible as well. God like to repeat himself so that the message can get through people's thick skulls. Christians cite the old testament because it is relevant. If the new testament replaces everything in the old then Christian Bibles would just contain the new testament or be seperate books instead of combing them. The new testament has primacy to the old, but unless there is a part that has been fullfilled the old still applies. For example Jesus says not one jot or tiddle of the law is done away with, he is here to fullfill the law not abolish it. The new testament says that Christian gentiles don't have to keep to all of the law of moses, merely abstain from sexual immorality, idol worship, and a few other things. Now eating shrimp is not a sexual action, wearing mixed fabric is not a sexual action, sticking your dick in an asshole is a sexual action.

Death for being gay
Why is that wrong, but death for murder or rape not wrong? Who are you to decide morality?

Yes, you are. I and others have already pointed out one of the most common examples of it. Slavery would be another example of it. But the fact is, religion actually has changed quite a bit over the centuries. I guarantee you that your grandparents held to things that you don't. I guarantee you that Christians in 1500 held to things that you don't.
Actually for the most part I try to agree with my ancestors where practical. Also slavery is not immoral, the way the Ancient Isralites practiced it is not the way early America did, which was immoral. In Ancient Israel slaves came from either a legal punishment, or debt, or war captives. It was not a race based slave trade, also I'm pretty sure that the children of slaves weren't slaves, but I'm not positive.

Are you comparing consenting gay men having sex to serial rape, even just in terms of severity? That's kind of what I'm getting at.
Yes. You can get mad all you want, but sodomy is a grave offense against God's law. That is a fact, that liberals try to corrupt god's law to support their own selfish interests is not my concern.

And now we've come back from claiming that no one is bound to follow it to making excuses for it.
What part of ceremonial law is not needed for Christians to follow do you not understand? Christians are only bound by the moral law, and even if the law of Moses still applied that would not necessarily mean that Gentiles have to follow it. You do understand that you can't follow all 613 commandments right? Like if you are a man you can't follow the ones about a woman being ritually impure during that time of month, and if you are a woman you can't circumize yourself to comply with the order given by God to the Isralites. You make your arguments but you don't seem to know basic history or theology. Because even in Ancient Israel before the Roman occupation not everyone in the holy land was a Jew. Now foreign persons could live and work there, but they still had to worship the one true God, they could not commit idology, adultery, etc. But they were not required to be circumzied for example. So you'd have to look to see which specefic laws that non jews were required to obey and which ones they were not required too.

Lutheran.
Ahh a protestant, someone who listened to a heretic like Martin Luthor whose words are worse than shit from a horses ass. That might explain why you don't know anything about Church history, or even the religious history of Israel. Here is a hint, sola scriptura is false. You need the tradition of the early Church.
 
Why is that wrong, but death for murder or rape not wrong? Who are you to decide morality?
And thank you for showing why LGBT folks have every reason to fight tooth and nail against anyone who even hints at wanting to strip away same-sex marriage; because we know it won't end there. It'll end with gays being thrown off buildings like in ME shit holes.
 
The fact that you got a poor theological education does not imply all other Christians were similarly mis-educated.
Apparently the commonality of the argument I'm talking about would. Of course, me being "mis-educated" is just like, your opinion, man.

2. Not proven and no it hasn't.
I don't have to prove shit to you. This is about you trying to gaslight me that somehow my own lived experience somehow isn't true, and I should just take the word of you, some stranger on the internet, that what I saw for myself didn't actually happen.

3. I didn't say it was meaningless nor have I been "making excuses" for it, unless you consider telling you that you are wrong and don't know what you're talking about to be "making excuses".
You most certainly have been making excuses, as well as bouncing back and forth over whether the passage even counts or not.

Why is that wrong, but death for murder or rape not wrong? Who are you to decide morality?

Also slavery is not immoral

Yes. You can get mad all you want, but sodomy is a grave offense against God's law. That is a fact, that liberals try to corrupt god's law to support their own selfish interests is not my concern.

Ahh a protestant, someone who listened to a heretic like Martin Luthor whose words are worse than shit from a horses ass. That might explain why you don't know anything about Church history, or even the religious history of Israel. Here is a hint, sola scriptura is false. You need the tradition of the early Church.
And with that, any respect I had for you just went out the window.
 
Actually for the most part I try to agree with my ancestors where practical. Also slavery is not immoral, the way the Ancient Isralites practiced it is not the way early America did, which was immoral. In Ancient Israel slaves came from either a legal punishment, or debt, or war captives. It was not a race based slave trade, also I'm pretty sure that the children of slaves weren't slaves, but I'm not positive.
It was race based insofar as there were different rules for Jewish slaves vs. non-Jewish slaves; this includes the amount of time that they were enslaved for and I think whether the children were also enslaved. Slaves could also be bought from other nations.

"slavery is not immoral" OK guy
 
Apparently the commonality of the argument I'm talking about would.

You have claimed this argument is common, but not proven it in the slightest.

Of course, me being "mis-educated" is just like, your opinion, man.

You don't understand the new covenant, one of the most fundamental elements of Christian theology. You have, objectively, not been educated about what Christianity is correctly.

I don't have to prove shit to you. This is about you trying to gaslight me that somehow my own lived experience somehow isn't true, and I should just take the word of you, some stranger on the internet, that what I saw for myself didn't actually happen.

My lived experience is that people who cite "lived experience" as their proof of something are always lying. I don't care about your alleged lived experience, I care about what you can prove with verifiable evidence, which has thus far been nothing.

You most certainly have been making excuses, as well as bouncing back and forth over whether the passage even counts or not.

Um.....no, no I haven't. Cite on post where I go back and forth over if these passages even count.
 
And thank you for showing why LGBT folks have every reason to fight tooth and nail against anyone who even hints at wanting to strip away same-sex marriage; because we know it won't end there. It'll end with gays being thrown off buildings like in ME shit holes.
A few things first off not supporting same sex marriage does not correspond with supporting execution of gays let alone criminalizing sodomy. I mean traditional Buddhism would also not support gay marriage but not because it’s a crime against god. But simply it is useless attachment just like they wouldn’t support someone who likes to play golf all the time and considers golfing part of their lifestyle. Also not all Christian are against seperation of church and state so there is that.

It was race based insofar as there were different rules for Jewish slaves vs. non-Jewish slaves; this includes the amount of time that they were enslaved for and I think whether the children were also enslaved. Slaves could also be bought from other nations.

"slavery is not immoral" OK guy
It was race based? Ahh then that changes things. As for it not being immoral, I consider god to be the one who says if something is wrong or not. Though there are passages in the New Testament that forbid slave taking and slave trading, but not slave holding in and of itself as wrong. So pretty much it is impractical to have a slave society in a true Christian society. Also there is the fact that I believe a republic should make sure slavery is not allowed in its nation, since slavery did lead to the end of the Roman Republic.
 
You have claimed this argument is common, but not proven it in the slightest.

You don't understand the new covenant, one of the most fundamental elements of Christian theology. You have, objectively, not been educated about what Christianity is correctly.

My lived experience is that people who cite "lived experience" as their proof of something are always lying. I don't care about your alleged lived experience, I care about what you can prove with verifiable evidence, which has thus far been nothing.

Um.....no, no I haven't. Cite on post where I go back and forth over if these passages even count.
And you're just going to double down on the gas-lighting. There goes my respect for you, then.
 
And thank you for showing why LGBT folks have every reason to fight tooth and nail against anyone who even hints at wanting to strip away same-sex marriage; because we know it won't end there. It'll end with gays being thrown off buildings like in ME shit holes.

Only in protestant countries.Catholics or Orthodoxs rarely hurt sodomites just becouse they were sodomites.But protestants are big on Old Testament,so as long as they belive they must prosecute sodomites.And witches,too.

But considering that lutherens now have lesbian bishops,you have little reasons to be afraid.
 

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