So having less content, and less fun things is a bonus? That doesn't make sense to me.
This is the game bullshit that put the game licence in the hands of EA.
Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind
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So having less content, and less fun things is a bonus? That doesn't make sense to me.
This is the game bullshit that put the game licence in the hands of EA.
And yet Fallen order and Squadrons are some of the best star wars games in the modern times
And then all of the good games we got in the past? And need I point to Microfront?
And we are getting nowhere, we either need to cut this out or have it moved. We should be talking about Dadalorian.
Skallagrim
Well-known member
There was a bit of a discussion over in the Mandalorian thread about the relative merits of the old EU and the new EU. Something that wasn't really mentioned in the comparison is that the new continuity has only existed for a bit over five years now. As far as sprawling messiness goes: if it grows at the current rate for another twenty years, it'll be more of a tangle by 2040 than the old EU was by 2014.
Personally, I think any attempt at a coherent canon, in a vast setting with lots of creators involved, is doomed to create a mess. That's not necessarily a negative (it can be a fun mess), but it's just a fact of life. Only way to avoid it is to take the Trek approach and say "all the extra stuff is not really canonical".
Personally, I think any attempt at a coherent canon, in a vast setting with lots of creators involved, is doomed to create a mess. That's not necessarily a negative (it can be a fun mess), but it's just a fact of life. Only way to avoid it is to take the Trek approach and say "all the extra stuff is not really canonical".
f1onagher
Well-known member
The old EU had levels of canon with movies at the top, tv shows below that, and then books and games kind of tangled into a mess underneath. It meant that there were hard canon beacons to keep the rest of the mess anchored. The Disney EU is just a money hungry mess that desperately tries to either compensate for the movies or make up for them, so the whole thing is deteriorating faster than Legends could ever have hoped to.
DarthOne
☦️
Additionally, the Disney canon has already reached far below the Star Wars EU's worse and in less than a fraction of the time. Not to mention that a lot of the 'worse aspects' of the Old EU have been either misremembered/deliberately taken out of context (Skippy the Jedi Droid) or were taken from children's novels that were included in the EU canon for some unknow reason (Triclops, the Glove of Darth Vader).
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Deleted member 88
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The most controversial elements of the EU-Vergere, Jacen’s downfall, Fate of the Jedi, elements of the clone wars era-coincidentally require you to be a fan of the EU to actually be controversial or be something you passionately dislike.
The most well informed and compelling criticisms of EU material have always come from EU fans. Not people who ignorantly claimed the Yuuzhan Vong are a hive mind or some other bit of misinformed IO9 drivel.
Or more simply-you have to love the EU to hate Troy Denning.
Elements of the EU criticized by casual fans are where the misinformation and ignorance comes in.
The most well informed and compelling criticisms of EU material have always come from EU fans. Not people who ignorantly claimed the Yuuzhan Vong are a hive mind or some other bit of misinformed IO9 drivel.
Or more simply-you have to love the EU to hate Troy Denning.
Elements of the EU criticized by casual fans are where the misinformation and ignorance comes in.
Skallagrim
Well-known member
The lack of tiers is going to be a problem, yes. In fact, it already is. Soon enough, they'll have to either de-canonise stuff, or re-inroduce tiers of canonicity.
It would be interesting to see some decent quality-to-quantity comparisons between the two continuities thus far (with, presumably, the stuff common to both left aside). Naturally, there will be a lot of subjectivity in any such judgement...
True. There's a lot of "this was definitely shit... but I've never even read a summary of it" going on.
Ain't that a fact!
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Deleted member 88
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Yep! There is probably nothing that gets EU fans, more passionate than criticizing Denning and the Denningverse. Traviss and Golden and Anderson don’t get near the same hostility and passionate criticism from EU fans.
Navarro
Well-known member
Not to mention ripping off the old EU.
And as I mentioned earlier, stealing from authors and refusing to pay them their royalties.
Basileus_Komnenos
Imperator Romanorum Βασιλεύς των Ρωμαίων
I can't forgive how they nerfed Grand Admiral Thrawn and had him defeated by space whales. How the hell are there large light speed traveling organisms that can survive in the vacuum of space?
Thrawn was made into a Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain. And the way Rebels treats the Lothal Group is as if they're one of the main sparks behind the Rebellion. OG Thrawn from Legends would have crushed them like boot stepping upon an ant.
In the comics Disney straight up rips-off/steals fan-art so I'm not surprised.
What do you guys think of there being a more monarchical focused Empire? Assuming the Empire was based on the German Empire (Kaiserreich) rather than Nazi Germany (aka the Third Reich)?
How would such a state be governed?
DarthOne
☦️
Well, that depends on a few things:
1) Are we changing how the formation of the Republic into the Galatic Empire happened? Also, are there any relatively equal or greater powers in this SW galaxy are or we sticking to just one big Galatic Empire/Republic with a bunch of smaller ones?
2) How much of Palpatine's personality are we keeping the same/changing?
3) Which Kaiserreich? The one under Willhelm the First with Bismark? Or the one under Willhelm the Second?
That said, I expect that the Star Wars setting would be more morally gray overall. With the 'Kaiserreich' Galactic Empire being more pragmatic than in OTL, though not without their darker moments of morality. Also, I think the Galactic Senate would be kept around, all be it in a form of...almost a sort of 'controlled opposition', though they would actually be somewhat listened to, but holding relatively little power.
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Skallagrim
Well-known member
Basically a lot like the Fel Empire, I'd say.
Val the Moofia Boss
Well-known member
When it comes to space fiction, small scale feudalism almost always make more sense then having a vast democracy/republic/federation of hundreds of worlds spread out across light years. It'd be impossible. Every member world would have a completely different culture and there would be incompatible philosophies and values and needs, not to mention that the bureaucracy of trying to run a galactic nation involving more than a few worlds would be impossible and collapse under its own weight.
In my mind, it'd be more plausible for the galaxy to be made up of many small feudal monarchies, rather than any large empire. Each monarchy would rule their own little locality, tending to their own needs and negotiating with their neighbors as necessary. Maybe a few monarchies would be able to gain control over a handful of planet, but a vast empire of hundreds of worlds would remain impossible. Each monarchy would would probably have have an sovereign who delegates control over individual star systems and planets to lords or appointed governors.
But this is Star Wars and plausibility isn't a concern here. Whatever makes for a more interesting character and moral story is what should be pursued, if we are trying to stay true to spirit of (George Lucas) Star Wars.
Skallagrim
Well-known member
Overall, I agree. If there's one thing that could make Star Wars more realistic in a 'historical' sense (and without messing with the setting's basic ideas at all), it's this: make galactic unification something intermittent, instead of something that's been the status quo for 25.000 years.
Granted, hyperdrive is absurdly fast. A fleet can effectively cross the whole galaxy in two or weeks. Fast response forces can do it considerably faster. Now keep in mind that historically, empires have usually failed whenever their 'response time' to crises on the periphery exceeded a point between ten and fifteen weeks. This has typically determined the maximum extent of empires (barring temporary and highly expensive occupations of fringe regions). Clearly, in SW, a central authority has the means to operate within that limit. This means that a galactic empire (or a republic) is not impossible.
The unrealistic part is that it lasts so long. But upart from the conceit of the Republic existing for an absurdly long time -- and there being a tech statis issue (as in: technology remains roughly static for many thousands of years) -- I'd say Star Wars is actually fairly "realistic" in this regard. At least in the old EU. Yes, there is a galactic government, but it's very obvious that it's very minimalist for most of its history. Every single attempt to centralise power is directly tied to a period of instability.
Meanwhile, we do see all sorts of small monarchies and aristocracies. They appear to run 99% of all their affairs locally, and the Old Republic -- for most of its history -- is more like a confederal league. It's like the Holy Roman Empire in space. The most unrealistic thing is that it's a Republic, instead of the eminently more credible Empire that one might expect. But given that it started as a sort of compromise between several Core worlds, even that can be forgiven.
But what I'd really expect, and would like to have seen, is a more realistic and 'complex' history of the galaxy. A decentralist 'common order' as the status quo and the most stable situation is quite believable. We also have periods where people fed up with the draw-backs of such a staid, laissez-faire order attempt to impose centralist rule. This always ends in despotism (I have often argued that on a galactic scale, overly centralist rule can only exist as tyranny). This then causes resistance. The problem is that after that, we always just go back to the "Republic stand-by".
More realistically, you'd expect a few centuries (if not longer) of division, in which competing local powers of varying sizes co-exist. Gradually, they come back together into a new international system, which gradually becomes something very much like the Old Republic that we know, which eventually leads to an aspiring centralist tyrant again... and things repeat.
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Deleted member 88
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It’s important to note hyperspace tech evolved slowly over the eons and only reached its modern standard relatively recently in galactic history. The republic spent thousands of years in the old EU colonizing and incorporating the inner rim and expansion region and mid rim. The way the republic expanded I’ve always liked to a slow moving avalanche. It grew through colonization but also incorporated more and more civilizations and polities into itself which themselves added to the expansion. So it had a lot of momentum for a long time, had a reason for enduring-five thousand years of Sith wars, and then plenty of inertia too.
Skallagrim
Well-known member
I agree with the assessment. Of course, we should also keep in mind that this still leaves us with c. 10.000 years of "the Republic is there, and no matter what wars or crises occur... unity is restored each time". I don't find this altogether credible. Nor, for that matter, the considerable tech stasis. (Again, the same time-span: tech generally freezes for 10 millennia. Both hyperdrives and energy shields become common in the same period, at which point the basic modern energy weapon is also fully developed, and then... things just stay like that. It's comparable to suggesting a scenario where the technological development between 1940 and 1970 somehow take 10.000 years to occur.)
Naturally, SW is very soft sci-fi and we can take this for granted and move on. It's not like I consider it a terrible flaw or something. I'm just saying: if I had to re-design the scope and arc of galactic history, I'd take this stuff into consideration...
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Deleted member 88
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I may be misremembering but I think the SW galaxy peaked overall technologically by 3000 BBY.
Though there were some improvements in later eras, better hologram technology, and by Legacy ship designs are much smaller overall.
There were also military innovations during the Vong war especially, and IIRC in the second galactic civil war. Though this was just generally tactics and technologies designed for those wars in question, and the fundamentals remained the same.
My headcanon is the GFFA is a technological plateau. To break the stasis, something like either the Infinity gates would have to be re engineered or teleportation invented(and it’s been worked on IU by scientists, IIRC too).
Though there were some improvements in later eras, better hologram technology, and by Legacy ship designs are much smaller overall.
There were also military innovations during the Vong war especially, and IIRC in the second galactic civil war. Though this was just generally tactics and technologies designed for those wars in question, and the fundamentals remained the same.
My headcanon is the GFFA is a technological plateau. To break the stasis, something like either the Infinity gates would have to be re engineered or teleportation invented(and it’s been worked on IU by scientists, IIRC too).
