WI: Imperial Japan joins in Operation Barbarossa

One other factor from a Japanese attack on the Soviet Far East that hasn't been mentioned. It makes it considerably better for the KMT in China. Not only will it draw off some Japanese forces but the Burma road remains open. Also since the US isn't initially at war with Japan you don't get a lot of the stuff sent over the Hump being allocated to a US bomber force in China. Depending on when sanctions are applied to Japan - and hence it either tries to go south or has to give up - China has a chance to start pushing back against them.

Also a delayed war in the Far East/Pacific gives further reinforcements to the Philippines, Guam and Wake. Their still fairly likely to fall in a war between Japan and the US but the Japanese losses are going to be markedly heavier and Wake at least might survive.

The key issue for the Japanese are is not the number of units it can man but the number it can ship to battle fronts and logistics, especially in terms of merchant shipping capacity which is as much an Achilles heel as their lack of oil supply or dependence on other imports. Not having conquests in the south will ease the shipping problem in the short term but make the resources crunch occur markedly earlier.
 
As to Japan running out of oil in "attacks USSR" scenario - won't Japan have the Sakhalin oil fields all to itself, thus alleviating the crunch?

As to the effect on the USSR - no LL over the Transsiberian RR - what other impact? The Soviet Far East is far away, sparsely populated, with no resources not duplicated elsewhere, can be defended by a single corps sitting on the one and only RR between Chita and Irkutsk. It could be like the USA losing the Phillipines or Alaska, the UK losing Cyprus, or France losing Senegal ...

Interesting point about Burma Road - maybe the RR gets built? It would have had several times the capacity of the OTL truck convoys. Before somebody jumps in disparaging 1 metre gauge - the Burmese 1 metre track gauge railroad system is the heaviest 1 metre system in the world, with a bigger loading gauge than the standard gauge network in the UK.
 
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As to Japan running out of oil in "attacks USSR" scenario - won't Japan have the Sakhalin oil fields all to itself, thus alleviating the crunch?
This is a common error I've seen in people's analysis.

Sakhalin Oil Fields are most offshore and the ones onshore are some of the deep in the world, inaccessible using 1930s or 1940s tech.

Those oil fields are completely undeveloped as of 1939. Development will take time, while creating an easy target for Soviet bombers.
 
Those oil fields are completely undeveloped as of 1939.
I've read otherwise. After transferring North Sakhalin to USSR in 1925 the Japanese retained rights to exploit oil fields north of the border.
I've read somewhere that all oil from North Sakhalin somehow belonged to the IJN?

Also, once Sakhalin is taken, it will be too far away from any Soviet airfields and/or bombers.
 
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This info above is literally cherry picked from the same Wiki page that said the Japanese invasion would run out of oil within 6-12 months.

The US and Allied wholesale embargo of Japan crippled their war industry, especially in terms of oil. And Siberia at the time was very underdeveloped, very few mines and industrial facilities.

Sure the Japanese can invade on June 22nd, 1941, but they'll be out of oil and other critical supplies by December 1941. Soviets will preform a two front counterattack and save their hide.

The Soviets have more equipment than they have men, which means they can simply conscript civilians. And I doubt the numbers of Soviet troops accounted for the reservists in the area as well. An error that cost the Germans dearly.

Japanese on the other hand, are running out of men and gear. The Battle of Changsha went badly for them and if the Chinese learned that the Japanese were occupied on another front, they would launch a massive counter-attack.

The question of oil supplies long term is a rather different subject from the question of the quality and size of the relevant forces. Specifically on that question, however, the Japanese will be better off than OTL or the same at absolute worst both because of their ample storage but also because of production in the Soviet Far East. Contrary to popular belief production in the region in 1940 amounted to 588,000 tons and grew to 1,200,000 tons in 1945, which converted to barrels is 10,140,000. To put that into context, total Japanese consumption in 1941 was thus:

Japan entered the Second World War in large part due to its need for oil. The Empire actually used relatively little oil – about 32 million barrels in 1941 (for the whole year, and a good part of that went into Japan’s strategic reserve) compared to 4.8 million barrels per day in 2012, down from Japan’s peak of 5.71 million barrels a day in 1997. The Empire produced almost none of this, relying on imports, chiefly from the United States.​
Is it enough to make Japan self sufficient? No, but it is certainly better than OTL-assuming the U.S. still places sanctions on the Japanese too-and ensures military operations can continue apace uninterrupted. As for everything else, the Soviets have nothing with which to counter-attack the Japanese with that does not come at the expense of missing out on it in Europe, nor are they growing more powerful equipment wise either; far from it in fact:

In addition, because of the number of formations being created to replace or reinforce those being shredded at the front individual Soviet rifle divisions consistently went into battle with substantial shortfalls in equipment and manpower. Early in 1942 Soviet rifle divsions weren't just running as much as 30% smaller in terms of manpower compared to their pre-war versions, but also were substantially less mobile and missing much of their pre-war punch. The main source of anti-tank capability late in 1941 had become the PTRD anti-tank rifle. Obviously, an anti-tank rifle was hardly as effective as an anti-tank gun. Nevertheless, the problem the Red Army faced late in 1941 was that divisional anti-tank gun complements in its rifle divisions had falled from 54 to only 18 such weapons. In terms of mobility things were even worse. The December 1941 rifle division was only assigned 248 motor vehicles and 2,410 horses versus pre-war totals of 558 and 3,039 respectively. All of this contributed to the problems Soviet rifle divisions would have in terms of effectively challenging German forces in 1941-1942.​
The Red Army is often portrayed as overwhelmingly powerful in 1942; for quantitative reasons as much as anything else. In reality it was numerically far weaker than it had been in June of 1941. For instance, in spite of concentrating production on key weapons systems like tanks, aircraft and artillery and mortars the Red Army's stocks hadn't come anywhere close to pre-war levels. In June of 1941 the Red Army had 22,600 tanks on its books. In May of 1942 this total had fallen to 9,325 such machines. Aircraft had dropped from 20,000 to 14,967. Artillery and mortar stocks were down from 112,800 to 107,795 on the eve of the 1942 German summer campaign. Moreover, the increased focus on tank, artillery, and aircraft production that had even enabled the Red Army to maintain such those numbers came at the expense of other very important items - not least of which being truck production.​
In 1941 the Soviet economy produced 118,704 trucks; a number that hadn't come close to meeting the Red Army's needs. Then truck output collapsed in 1942, with only 32,409 such vehicles manufactured in the entire year. This meant the Red Army's long-standing problems in coordinating the disparate combat arms only worsened as the increased flow of tanks was not matched by motorized infantry and artillery. This lack of trucks thus greatly hindered the Red Army's ability to go on the offensive. Not only couldn't the prime mover starved artillery keep up with Soviet armor once the battlefield became mobile (at least the infantry could ride on tanks - though at dreadful cost as they entered the battlefield), but each mile removed from railheads meant needed fuel, munitions, and other such critical supplies failed to reach the front. Though the 1942 era Red Army would launch aggressive offensives and counteroffensives at a dizzying pace; few of them had the logistical legs to truly threaten to take away the German hold on the initiative.​
As it were, even if we ignore all of this, the Soviets cannot suddenly grow a navy or air power in the Far East, which means the IJN still has shut down the Pacific Lend Lease route. As for the Chinese, it's important to remember they did attempt a counter-attack in 1939-1940 and the end result was such a disaster that they did not attempt such again until 1945 as the IJA was in collapse everywhere. The Kwantung Army was a separate force than that of the China Expeditionary Force, which meant a Japanese attack on the Soviets would not divert forces from China.
 
And even in 1944, with the Japanese war effort collapsing, the IJA still managed to inflict a crushing - if indecisive - defeat on the KMT during Operation Ichi-Go. China was a classic stalemate, with the Japanese lacking the manpower and logistics to decisively defeat the KMT, but the KMT similarly lacked the offensive capability to decisively defeat the Japanese.
 
The question of oil supplies long term is a rather different subject from the question of the quality and size of the relevant forces. Specifically on that question, however, the Japanese will be better off than OTL or the same at absolute worst both because of their ample storage but also because of production in the Soviet Far East. Contrary to popular belief production in the region in 1940 amounted to 588,000 tons and grew to 1,200,000 tons in 1945, which converted to barrels is 10,140,000. To put that into context, total Japanese consumption in 1941 was thus:

Japan entered the Second World War in large part due to its need for oil. The Empire actually used relatively little oil – about 32 million barrels in 1941 (for the whole year, and a good part of that went into Japan’s strategic reserve) compared to 4.8 million barrels per day in 2012, down from Japan’s peak of 5.71 million barrels a day in 1997. The Empire produced almost none of this, relying on imports, chiefly from the United States.​
Is it enough to make Japan self sufficient? No, but it is certainly better than OTL-assuming the U.S. still places sanctions on the Japanese too-and ensures military operations can continue apace uninterrupted. As for everything else, the Soviets have nothing with which to counter-attack the Japanese with that does not come at the expense of missing out on it in Europe, nor are they growing more powerful equipment wise either; far from it in fact:

In addition, because of the number of formations being created to replace or reinforce those being shredded at the front individual Soviet rifle divisions consistently went into battle with substantial shortfalls in equipment and manpower. Early in 1942 Soviet rifle divsions weren't just running as much as 30% smaller in terms of manpower compared to their pre-war versions, but also were substantially less mobile and missing much of their pre-war punch. The main source of anti-tank capability late in 1941 had become the PTRD anti-tank rifle. Obviously, an anti-tank rifle was hardly as effective as an anti-tank gun. Nevertheless, the problem the Red Army faced late in 1941 was that divisional anti-tank gun complements in its rifle divisions had falled from 54 to only 18 such weapons. In terms of mobility things were even worse. The December 1941 rifle division was only assigned 248 motor vehicles and 2,410 horses versus pre-war totals of 558 and 3,039 respectively. All of this contributed to the problems Soviet rifle divisions would have in terms of effectively challenging German forces in 1941-1942.​
The Red Army is often portrayed as overwhelmingly powerful in 1942; for quantitative reasons as much as anything else. In reality it was numerically far weaker than it had been in June of 1941. For instance, in spite of concentrating production on key weapons systems like tanks, aircraft and artillery and mortars the Red Army's stocks hadn't come anywhere close to pre-war levels. In June of 1941 the Red Army had 22,600 tanks on its books. In May of 1942 this total had fallen to 9,325 such machines. Aircraft had dropped from 20,000 to 14,967. Artillery and mortar stocks were down from 112,800 to 107,795 on the eve of the 1942 German summer campaign. Moreover, the increased focus on tank, artillery, and aircraft production that had even enabled the Red Army to maintain such those numbers came at the expense of other very important items - not least of which being truck production.​
In 1941 the Soviet economy produced 118,704 trucks; a number that hadn't come close to meeting the Red Army's needs. Then truck output collapsed in 1942, with only 32,409 such vehicles manufactured in the entire year. This meant the Red Army's long-standing problems in coordinating the disparate combat arms only worsened as the increased flow of tanks was not matched by motorized infantry and artillery. This lack of trucks thus greatly hindered the Red Army's ability to go on the offensive. Not only couldn't the prime mover starved artillery keep up with Soviet armor once the battlefield became mobile (at least the infantry could ride on tanks - though at dreadful cost as they entered the battlefield), but each mile removed from railheads meant needed fuel, munitions, and other such critical supplies failed to reach the front. Though the 1942 era Red Army would launch aggressive offensives and counteroffensives at a dizzying pace; few of them had the logistical legs to truly threaten to take away the German hold on the initiative.​
As it were, even if we ignore all of this, the Soviets cannot suddenly grow a navy or air power in the Far East, which means the IJN still has shut down the Pacific Lend Lease route. As for the Chinese, it's important to remember they did attempt a counter-attack in 1939-1940 and the end result was such a disaster that they did not attempt such again until 1945 as the IJA was in collapse everywhere. The Kwantung Army was a separate force than that of the China Expeditionary Force, which meant a Japanese attack on the Soviets would not divert forces from China.

I think the link you actually want is Soviet oil sources in WWII as the other one gives a general summary of assorted materials including oil over the war years. As you say, if the oil capacity is captured intact and expanded as happened OTL then it would supply about 10M barrels in 45 [and ~5M barrels in 1940] which would meet a fraction of the "about 32 million barrels in 1941" - which is largely about an Avalanche News article but does include that figure - about 20% in 1940 and 40% in 1945. Of course for 1941, other than in the last month, Japan's navy was largely on peacetime footing and probably much of its air forces given the logistical situation in much of China.

Of course once Japan is at war with the western powers then it loses all other sources of oil importation and in this scenario its unlikely to capture much if any of the oil supplies in Borneo or the DEIs so its going to very quickly run short. Which will have a big impact on naval and air operations as well as armour let alone on other issues such as training.

The wiki article you quote about the Chinese counter offensives in 1939-40 actually says in its intro:

The 1939–40 Winter Offensive (Chinese: 冬季攻勢) was one of the major engagements between the National Revolutionary Army and Imperial Japanese Army during the Second Sino-Japanese War, in which Chinese forces launched their first major counter-offensive on multiple fronts. Although this offensive failed to achieve its original objectives, some studies have shown that it came as a heavy blow to the Japanese forces, as well as a massive shock to the Japanese military command, which did not expect the Chinese forces to be able to launch an offensive operation on such a large scale.[1]

By April 1940 the Japanese army had successfully fought the operation to a halt. However, a Japanese counteroffensive in the northern theater failed to seize Ningxia and was defeated in Suiyuan by Chinese Muslim forces.

Note this was before the KMT gained significant support from the western powers and before Japan itself was at war with either the west or the USSR. Also that after early 42 with the cutting of the Burma Road it was difficult to get support to the Chinese. In the proposed scenario its likely that China can received much more aid while the Japanese position is markedly worse, with no economic assets in SE Asia and an additional front in Siberia.

To get a wider idea of Japanese consumption I checked one of my old books, "The WWII Databook" by John Ellis which gives significantly different figures to you. On p276, table 84, titled annual Japanese oil production and consumption it gives the following info, in million US barrels.

YearHome CrudeHome SyntheticImportsTotalUsed in yearDeficitStockpile start of Year
19411.91.28.411.522.611.148.9
19421.71.510.513.725.812.137.8
19431.81.014.517.327.810.525.7
19441.61.25.07.819.411.615.2
19450.80.2?1.0?4.63.63.6

I found a typo in the initial line where it recorded the deficit as 11.5 so have manually corrected. Note this importantation from outside, which from 1942 onward is overwhelmingly from the southern conquests in Borneo, Sumatra and Burma are extremely unlikely to be available TTL, so it would only have what it could obtain once it captured and repaired oilfields in N Sakhalin. As such the reserve stockpile would drain at least as fast as OTL.
 
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And even in 1944, with the Japanese war effort collapsing, the IJA still managed to inflict a crushing - if indecisive - defeat on the KMT during Operation Ichi-Go. China was a classic stalemate, with the Japanese lacking the manpower and logistics to decisively defeat the KMT, but the KMT similarly lacked the offensive capability to decisively defeat the Japanese.

Yes but TTL there is an extra front in Siberia while China is nowhere near as isolated as OTL so would potentially get a hell of a lot more equipment. Not saying that they would steamroller the Japanese but they are going to be in a markedly better position than OTL.
 
Yes but TTL there is an extra front in Siberia while China is nowhere near as isolated as OTL so would potentially get a hell of a lot more equipment. Not saying that they would steamroller the Japanese but they are going to be in a markedly better position than OTL.
It's not a lack of resources holding China back from pushing the Japanese out, it's their own disunity. Chang Kai Sheik still has to herd the backstabbing cats he put together for his Northern Expedition.
 
I think the link you actually want is oil produced in different locations in the USSR as the other one gives a general summary of assorted materials including oil over the war years. As you say, if the oil capacity is captured intact and expanded as happened OTL then it would supply about 10M barrels in 45 [and ~5M barrels in 1940] which would meet a fraction of the "about 32 million barrels in 1941" - which is largely about an Avalanche News article but does include that figure - about 20% in 1940 and 40% in 1945. Of course for 1941, other than in the last month, Japan's navy was largely on peacetime footing and probably much of its air forces given the logistical situation in much of China.

The Japanese don't have to capture the oil capacity intact; they didn't do so in the NEI and were able to restore production quite effectively and quickly as your charts note. Even if the Soviets are able to demolish the infrastructure, the Japanese focus on restoring it and expanding production would pay dividends starting in 1942 in terms of being able to not only restore production but boost it faster than the Soviets did since it would be their primary focus in terms of oil. Likewise, it needs to be noted the IJN was not on a peace time footing until December of 1941 given they had been conducting war preparations as early as late 1940 but certainly transitioned into a war time footing by August of 1941, because to strike across the Pacific not only required serious training but also deploying and marshalling forces for the widespread offensives.

Of course once Japan is at war with the western powers then it loses all other sources of oil importation and in this scenario its unlikely to capture much if any of the oil supplies in Borneo or the DEIs so its going to very quickly run short. Which will have a big impact on naval and air operations as well as armour let alone on other issues such as training.

Why exactly is Japan at war with the Western Powers?

The wiki article you quote about the Chinese counter offensives in 1939-40 actually says in its intro:

I'm not really sure how the Japanese "being shocked" really proves anything in terms of effecting the course or state of the conflict, as well as does nothing to challenge the fact the Chinese did not attempt such again until 1945.

Note this was before the KMT gained significant support from the western powers and before Japan itself was at war with either the west or the USSR. Also that after early 42 with the cutting of the Burma Road it was difficult to get support to the Chinese. In the proposed scenario its likely that China can received much more aid while the Japanese position is markedly worse, with no economic assets in SE Asia and an additional front in Siberia.

I have no idea where the perception of KMT aid only arriving after 1941 comes from, given the Burma Road had been in operation by 1939. It's worth noting that the Japanese, in the aftermath of the Tientsin Incident, were able to so bully and cower the weak British that the latter actually temporarily shut off said Road. By 1941, it was open again but here it would be the only route available; the Japanese had already shut off the FIC route in 1940 and their attack into Siberia would cut off Soviet aid to the Chinese. Not only would oil be available from the Soviet conquests, but here the Japanese Army is focused on the Asian Mainland, instead of being dispersed around the largest ocean on Earth, from Burma to the Solomons to the Aleutians.

To get a wider idea of Japanese consumption I checked one of my old books, "The WWII Databook" by John Ellis which gives significantly different figures to you. On p276, table 84, titled annual Japanese oil production and consumption it gives the following info, in million US barrels.

YearHome CrudeHome SyntheticImportsTotalUsed in yearDeficitStockpile start of Year
19411.91.28.411.522.611.148.9
19421.71.510.513.725.812.137.8
19431.81.014.517.327.810.525.7
19441.61.25.07.819.411.615.2
19450.80.2?1.0?4.63.63.6

I found a typo in the initial line where it recorded the deficit as 11.5 so have manually corrected. Note this importantation from outside, which from 1942 onward is overwhelmingly from the southern conquests in Borneo, Sumatra and Burma are extremely unlikely to be available TTL, so it would only have what it could obtain once it captured and repaired oilfields in N Sakhalin. As such the reserve stockpile would drain at least as fast as OTL.

So total Japanese usage in a year was 22.6 barrels as opposed to 38 million? That actually dramatically improves the Japanese picture as that means in 1945 Northern Sakhalin would be producing 50% of their needs. Given the IJN would remain on a peace time consumption level since it is not conquering the Pacific, that means overall fuel usage will be lower and the Japanese have more than sufficient production to sustain their army.
 
Why exactly is Japan at war with the Western Powers?
Because Japan is at war with the USSR which from 22.VI.41 onward is "fighting for freedom" and thus the UK's and USA's Best Friend?
However, I'd not expect the UK to lash out its own against Japan in 1941 - Britain was reeling from Churchill's fuck ups and a DOW against Japan would had led to a change of PM. For a Japanese-Western Powers war we have to to wait until 1Q42 when FDR finally gets a casus belli against Germany to sell to Congress.
 
The Japanese don't have to capture the oil capacity intact; they didn't do so in the NEI and were able to restore production quite effectively and quickly as your charts note. Even if the Soviets are able to demolish the infrastructure, the Japanese focus on restoring it and expanding production would pay dividends starting in 1942 in terms of being able to not only restore production but boost it faster than the Soviets did since it would be their primary focus in terms of oil. Likewise, it needs to be noted the IJN was not on a peace time footing until December of 1941 given they had been conducting war preparations as early as late 1940 but certainly transitioned into a war time footing by August of 1941, because to strike across the Pacific not only required serious training but also deploying and marshalling forces for the widespread offensives.

That assumes that Japan is able to build up the capacity at least as fast as the Soviets.

There is a lot of difference between war preparations and actually fighting a war with all the additions burdens that poses.

Why exactly is Japan at war with the Western Powers?

Probably because its now openly allied with the Germans so when Germany goes to war with the US its likely that either Japan will follow or that the US will declare was on Japan.

In one way that's a less bad option for Japan. Western sanctions could be applied once Japan attacks the Soviets. Its at least as much an aggressive act as the OTL trigger of the occupation of southern FIC. In that case Japan loses those vital supplies in June/July 41 while not in a position to attack south and while fighting a war in Siberia.



I'm not really sure how the Japanese "being shocked" really proves anything in terms of effecting the course or state of the conflict, as well as does nothing to challenge the fact the Chinese did not attempt such again until 1945.

My point was that a link you said argued one thing actually argued the opposite.

I have no idea where the perception of KMT aid only arriving after 1941 comes from, given the Burma Road had been in operation by 1939. It's worth noting that the Japanese, in the aftermath of the Tientsin Incident, were able to so bully and cower the weak British that the latter actually temporarily shut off said Road. By 1941, it was open again but here it would be the only route available; the Japanese had already shut off the FIC route in 1940 and their attack into Siberia would cut off Soviet aid to the Chinese. Not only would oil be available from the Soviet conquests, but here the Japanese Army is focused on the Asian Mainland, instead of being dispersed around the largest ocean on Earth, from Burma to the Solomons to the Aleutians.

Interesting that your claiming something I never said. Western, as well as Soviet aid reached China from shortly after the Japanese invasion started. However it was somewhat limited by politics as none of the other powers were either in conflict with Japan nor on a real way footing until Sep 39. [The latter being a narrow window anyway as with the fall of France and Britain being under partial blockade and threat of invasion was in limited position to supply anything. As you meant during that period Britain was pressurised to briefly shut the Burma Road].

As I actually said the road, even without it being upgraded to a railway would give a much greater capacity for supply to China than the OTL very wasteful flights "over the hump" from India to China. Furthermore once the US goes on a full war footing it would have a lot more resources to send, including at least some of that stuff that OTL can't go through Vladivostok to the Soviets. Hence the KMT could get a lot more equipment compared to OTL.

Given that from 1931 Japan was in effective control of Manchuria and from 1936 of much of NE China south of the Great Wall I very much doubt that a Japanese attack on the Soviet Far East provinces would cut off Soviet supply routes to China. How much the Soviets could spare would be an issue given their fighting a 2 front war here but that's a different issue from what you said.

That Japan isn't committing some of its army to scattered locations across the Pacific will help a bit but it will need to commit a lot, both in forces and in supply to the operations in Siberia so I wouldn't assume it would be easily able to handle a markedly stronger Chinese military, especially when all those supply short-falls start biting. Which isn't just oil don't forget.

So total Japanese usage in a year was 22.6 barrels as opposed to 38 million? That actually dramatically improves the Japanese picture as that means in 1945 Northern Sakhalin would be producing 50% of their needs. Given the IJN would remain on a peace time consumption level since it is not conquering the Pacific, that means overall fuel usage will be lower and the Japanese have more than sufficient production to sustain their army.

The key point is the date. It will take some time to 1st repair and then expand production. Also the IJN will still consume a substantial amount of fuel even while on a peace time footing which will end when Japan finds itself at war with the western powers, which I think is almost certain, probably within months of the US and Germany being at war that also ends.

Not to mention that ~22M barrels in 41 when Japan was still at peace outside China. It quickly rose to nearly 28M barrels in 1943, then declines as both supplies and Japanese military capacity dwindled. Here there is the additional fighting in Siberia to consider.

Of course if Japan doesn't end up at war with the US in 1942 then by the end of that year possibly before the Philippines are probably pretty much immune to Japanese attack and the US then can consider initialing either war itself or start supplying China directly and daring Japan to attack its ships.;)
 
Almost certainly stops Pearl along with more importantly the southern push, which makes the Japanese position dire from the start of a war with the western powers.

For all Roosevelt's stupid bias I wish people would stop the shit about him being some sort of secret communist.
Or not.If Japan simply attacked Dutch colonies and not british or american,american public would not support war.FDR could cook up casus belli and send fleet anyway,but that fleet would be sunked,and he would must made peace then.
P.S FDR was sadly not commie,but useful idiot.That is why he gave Stalin part of Europe for free withound undarstanding what is going on,and beliving that genocider Stalin is good uncle joe.
 
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Or not.If Japan simply attacked Dutch colonies and not british or american,american public would not support war.FDR could cook up casus belli and send fleet anyway,but that fleet would be sunked,and he would must made peace then.
P.S FDR was sadly not commie,but useful idiot.That is why he gave Stalin part of Europe for free withound undarstanding what is going on,and beliving that genocider Stalin is good uncle joe.


Attacking the DEI would have meant attacking Britain at least as the two were allies. It would very likely have meant US intervention against Japan, which without striking the Us 1st would have been risky. Yes if the outbreak of war in circa OTL and the US fleet is sent to try and rescue the Philippines then it could end up very badly for the USN but if they were sent to support their allies in the SE Asia region then things are a lot more difficult to repeat the OTL early Japanese successes. Even assuming they can carry out such operations while also fighting in both Siberia and China.

Roosevelt made some serious errors of judgement over foreign relations, although this also continued under Truman it should be remembered. However he didn't "give" Stalin parts of Europe for free. The Red army, except in a few small areas had already occupied those countries and regions and the US lacked the will and nukes aside probably the resources to liberate them, especially since that could mean a war as bloody as the one that had just been won, especially for the US.
 
Attacking the DEI would have meant attacking Britain at least as the two were allies. It would very likely have meant US intervention against Japan, which without striking the Us 1st would have been risky. Yes if the outbreak of war in circa OTL and the US fleet is sent to try and rescue the Philippines then it could end up very badly for the USN but if they were sent to support their allies in the SE Asia region then things are a lot more difficult to repeat the OTL early Japanese successes. Even assuming they can carry out such operations while also fighting in both Siberia and China.

Roosevelt made some serious errors of judgement over foreign relations, although this also continued under Truman it should be remembered. However he didn't "give" Stalin parts of Europe for free. The Red army, except in a few small areas had already occupied those countries and regions and the US lacked the will and nukes aside probably the resources to liberate them, especially since that could mean a war as bloody as the one that had just been won, especially for the US.

USA Pacific fleet would meet japanees in sea battle - and they would lost.After that,in 1942 was elections,and public would ask why our boys die for colonial powers.Good chance for peace with Japan.

About Europe - soviet air forces was so "good",that germans used Ju87 on East front till they were out of fuel,and german cruisers bombarded soviet army till they were out of ammo_Only one lost was sinked by british heavy bombers.
When soviet had 10:1 air advantage.
More important - their oil come from Baku and Ploesti,one week of B.17 during day and Lancasters in nights,and soviets would fight on horses.
Patton exxagerated when he said that he would beat soviets in week - but 2 months are possible.
Most important - soviet soldiers were slaves who hated Stalin.Once they would start loosing,they would surrender.

So,USA would win with little problems - if they wanted to fight.
And Stalin was aware of that - he ordered his minions to kill about 40 jews in Kielce 4.7.46,blamed "polish fascist" and waited for reaction.American ambassador reported that it was soviet work - and Truman did nothing.
In the same year Truman said to Stalin"get out from Iran" - and Stalin run.He would run from Poland and other countries in Europe,too - if USA cared.
 
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USA Pacific fleet would meet japanees in sea battle - and they would lost.After that,in 1942 was elections,and public would ask why our boys die for colonial powers.Good chance for peace with Japan.

About Europe - soviet air forces was so "good",that germans used Ju87 on East front till they were out of fuel,and german cruisers bombarded soviet army till they were out of ammo_Only one lost was sinked by british heavy bombers.
When soviet had 10:1 air advantage.
More important - their oil come from Baku and Ploesti,one week of B.17 during day and Lancasters in nights,and soviets would fight on horses.
Patton exxagerated when he said that he would beat soviets in week - but 2 months are possible.
Most important - soviet soldiers were slaves who hated Stalin.Once they would start loosing,they would surrender.

So,USA would win with little problems - if they wanted to fight.
And Stalin was aware of that - he ordered his minions to kill about 40 jews in Kielce 4.7.46,blamed "polish fascist" and waited for reaction.American ambassador reported that it was soviet work - and Truman did nothing.
In the same year Truman said to Stalin"get out from Iran" - and Stalin run.He would run from Poland and other countries in Europe,too - if USA cared.
I think you're overestimating the US and underestimating the USSR. The US didn't particularly want another war (Korea was, in a sense, the result of the US saying so out loud) while the USSR kept a large army because they were afraid of the US might do.

As for the USSR leaving Iran? The only reason they were there was to help secure a Lend-Lease route. They didn't particularly want to be there in the first place but were there because the British didn't have enough troops to secure the route without pulling troops from somewhere else and leaving that theatre underdefended.
 
Of course if Japan doesn't occupy French Indochina or hit Burma they have a big problem. The US can supply China via the deep water ports of said region which have rail links to China. Given that if the US hadn't gone to war there were plans to send enough stuff for well over 20 divisions equipped in the American fashion albeit more on the lighter spectrum of TOE by the end of 1942 and yeah things start going south in China for Japan real fast
 
I think you're overestimating the US and underestimating the USSR. The US didn't particularly want another war (Korea was, in a sense, the result of the US saying so out loud) while the USSR kept a large army because they were afraid of the US might do.

As for the USSR leaving Iran? The only reason they were there was to help secure a Lend-Lease route. They didn't particularly want to be there in the first place but were there because the British didn't have enough troops to secure the route without pulling troops from somewhere else and leaving that theatre underdefended.
If they do not wanted Iran,then why they made their own puppet goverment there? and why do not leaved in 1945,when Lend- lease ended ?

Did you saw soviet union crest? it is hammer and sicle - on Earth globe.
Did you hear soviet songs? they are about uniting Earth under their loving care.Soviets had vast armies in 1930,when nobody threathened them,and continue to keep them till the end.Why? becouse they really wanted to conqer entire Earth.

But they were also slavers,which made them weak.Almost all their soldiers wonted to surrender if they have chance.That is why Patton was sure that he would beat them,althought one week was too optimistic.

And their air forces not only sucked,but also was unable to fight heavy bombers at B.29 attitude,and would have big problems with B.17.That is why Moscow after WW2 was schielded by units using captured Fw190D.

Soviet night fighters was joke,so Lancasters would act without problems.

And they really take 50% of oil from Baku,and another 20% from nearby wells.
 
USA Pacific fleet would meet japanees in sea battle - and they would lost.After that,in 1942 was elections,and public would ask why our boys die for colonial powers.Good chance for peace with Japan.

There is a good chance that if the USN and IJN met in open sea in this period it could go pear shaped for either side, as Midway showed. If the US was trying to 'relieve' the Philippines my money would be heavily on the Japanese because that's a war their long been planning for and the USN would be sticking its head into a hornet's nest of defended island air bases and with their weaknesses in night fighting and lack of experience being further handicapped.

About Europe - soviet air forces was so "good",that germans used Ju87 on East front till they were out of fuel,and german cruisers bombarded soviet army till they were out of ammo_Only one lost was sinked by british heavy bombers.
When soviet had 10:1 air advantage.
More important - their oil come from Baku and Ploesti,one week of B.17 during day and Lancasters in nights,and soviets would fight on horses.
Patton exxagerated when he said that he would beat soviets in week - but 2 months are possible.
Most important - soviet soldiers were slaves who hated Stalin.Once they would start loosing,they would surrender.

So,USA would win with little problems - if they wanted to fight.
And Stalin was aware of that - he ordered his minions to kill about 40 jews in Kielce 4.7.46,blamed "polish fascist" and waited for reaction.American ambassador reported that it was soviet work - and Truman did nothing.
In the same year Truman said to Stalin"get out from Iran" - and Stalin run.He would run from Poland and other countries in Europe,too - if USA cared.

You under-estimate badly the Soviet forces by 1944-45. There were a lot of hardened veterans and a bitter hatred of foreigners after what the Nazis had done. A western demand for a Soviet withdrawal, which apart from anything else would have been in defiance of already agreed treaties, would have been seen as yet another attack on 'the motherland' by most of them even without any government propaganda.

I think if there had been a Soviet attack then, after heavy losses on both sides, probably going into at least 1946 the west is likely to win eventually. However given the political situation there's no way that the west could have started a war with the Soviets. Too much had been done in propaganda to make the Soviets acceptable allies and also the western powers were desperate to bring the wars to an end. Remember that Japan was still fighting and also that both Britain and the US had problems persuading troops in Europe after the German surrender to accept being transferred to the Far East. [Note that for the US forces here most would have had less than 9 months fighting so it wasn't a case of people who had been fighting for years as might have been the case with a lot of the Brits]. Also while signs were promising the atomic bomb was still a distinctly theoretical weapon.

As such the key point was that the US wasn't willing to start another war that would be hugely expensive, against a recent ally, while still fighting Japan for an undefined period in the future. Also that would have made the Japanese and Soviets potential allies while Washington was eager to get the Soviets as allies against Japan, which they did follow through on.

Similarly in Britain it was economically and psychologically exhausted. Even if Washington had been eager and given Churchill's willingness to consider war with the Soviets I doubt it would have been a popular war in Britain either. Don't forget Churchill lost heavily in the 1945 elections so his social and political position was unpopular and the suggest Britain start another war while still fighting Japan would have gone down like an Osmium balloon.


 

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