WI: Dinosaurs survived on Madagascar

[History Learner]

James E. Fassett of the U.S.G.S has been producing very compelling evidence for Paleocene dinosaurs in the Ojo Alamo Sandstone of the San Juan Basin in New Mexico since the early 2000s. Fassett is of the belief that some Dinosaur species continued on as late as 64.5 Million years ago, which is about 1.5 Million years after the K-PG Impact. Outside of Fassett's research, there has been some evidence for the same in Australasia and in China, there has been the discovery of the Qinornis, a non-neornithine ornithuran from 61 Million years ago despite the previous belief that they had all died out during the K-PG Impact. Interestingly, both the New Mexico and New Zealand arguments lines up with evidence concerning the rising of mammals at the start of the Paleocene. My personal interpretation is that, with their populations heavily devastated by the K-PG Impact, the relic population of Dinosaurs simply failed to proliferate in time before the Mammals took their ecological niches, ultimately outcompeting and thus dooming these Mesozoic survivors.

So what does this have to do with anything? We know for a fact that Madagascar had several extant Dinosaur species and its relative isolation as an island meant it was hard for Mammals to reach it. Existing evidence suggests that there was only four separate waves of invasive species since the K-PG Impact, which has resulted in the extremely unique fauna of the island today that cannot be found elsewhere. This relative isolation would thus make the island a prime candidate as a "Lost World" of surviving Dinosaur fauna, enabling the plucky survivors to successfully repopulate their island and thus maintain their environmental niches instead of being displaced by mammals.

So, as the Austronesians come to settle Madagascar around 350 BC - 550 AD, they find an island predominantly ruled by dinosaurs, with mammals playing a more background roll since they can only dominate certain ecological niches. In particular, the Rapetosaurus-the late Cretaceous sauropod species that dominated the island-has survived relatively unchanged physically but has become socially-sophisticated as a result of an evolutionary arms race with the descendants of Rahonavis, who have evolved into terror bird like predators that replaced the now extinct theropod Majungasaurus. Outside of the explicitly dinosaurian fauna, Simosuchus has also survived and has grown in size to take the place Hadrosaurs and like took elsewhere.

Rapetosaurus, physically unchanged for the most part but now with Elephant-like herd defensive mechanisms:

 

[PsihoKekec]

Could Majungosaurus, instead of dying out, evolve into smaller dinosaur, equivalent of lion? Another issue is whether the dinosaurs would greatly impede the human settlement of the island and whether the humans would exterminate them as so many other species. If they survive to the modern age, they will be a big source of dragon stories as the first seafarers reach the island, a massive curiosity once the interest in paleontology kicks in and major attraction for trophy hunters. I wonder how their exiastance would influence the works of Charles Darwin.

 

[History Learner]

Could Majungosaurus, instead of dying out, evolve into smaller dinosaur, equivalent of lion? Another issue is whether the dinosaurs would greatly impede the human settlement of the island and whether the humans would exterminate them as so many other species. If they survive to the modern age, they will be a big source of dragon stories as the first seafarers reach the island, a massive curiosity once the interest in paleontology kicks in and major attraction for trophy hunters. I wonder how their exiastance would influence the works of Charles Darwin.

Yeah, that could definitely happen; I just wrote it as I did because I like Terror Birds more than Theropod Dinosaurs lol.

As for the Dinosaur-Human interaction, my thinking is that it becomes a symbiosis of sorts. Because of the social nature of the Sauropods, they're domesticated and used in agriculture. Like, for example, instead of slash and burn, farmers can send them into a given area and they'll eat all they can or generally crush it down into the soil were its decomposition adds nutrients to the soil. They could also serve as beats of burden, such as pulling plows or serving as pack animals. I'd imagine the Rahonavis would go the way of the Moa/Haast's Eagle though.

 

[ATP]

James E. Fassett of the U.S.G.S has been producing very compelling evidence for Paleocene dinosaurs in the Ojo Alamo Sandstone of the San Juan Basin in New Mexico since the early 2000s. Fassett is of the belief that some Dinosaur species continued on as late as 64.5 Million years ago, which is about 1.5 Million years after the K-PG Impact. Outside of Fassett's research, there has been some evidence for the same in Australasia and in China, there has been the discovery of the Qinornis, a non-neornithine ornithuran from 61 Million years ago despite the previous belief that they had all died out during the K-PG Impact. Interestingly, both the New Mexico and New Zealand arguments lines up with evidence concerning the rising of mammals at the start of the Paleocene. My personal interpretation is that, with their populations heavily devastated by the K-PG Impact, the relic population of Dinosaurs simply failed to proliferate in time before the Mammals took their ecological niches, ultimately outcompeting and thus dooming these Mesozoic survivors.

So what does this have to do with anything? We know for a fact that Madagascar had several extant Dinosaur species and its relative isolation as an island meant it was hard for Mammals to reach it. Existing evidence suggests that there was only four separate waves of invasive species since the K-PG Impact, which has resulted in the extremely unique fauna of the island today that cannot be found elsewhere. This relative isolation would thus make the island a prime candidate as a "Lost World" of surviving Dinosaur fauna, enabling the plucky survivors to successfully repopulate their island and thus maintain their environmental niches instead of being displaced by mammals.

So, as the Austronesians come to settle Madagascar around 350 BC - 550 AD, they find an island predominantly ruled by dinosaurs, with mammals playing a more background roll since they can only dominate certain ecological niches. In particular, the Rapetosaurus-the late Cretaceous sauropod species that dominated the island-has survived relatively unchanged physically but has become socially-sophisticated as a result of an evolutionary arms race with the descendants of Rahonavis, who have evolved into terror bird like predators that replaced the now extinct theropod Majungasaurus. Outside of the explicitly dinosaurian fauna, Simosuchus has also survived and has grown in size to take the place Hadrosaurs and like took elsewhere.

Rapetosaurus, physically unchanged for the most part but now with Elephant-like herd defensive mechanisms:

Great birds on Magadascar were hunted down so bigger dino would die,too,but smaller species should survive.Just like with lemurs.
And Madagascar would become rich thanks to all turist coming there.Maybe entire island would live only from that.

 

[Val the Moofia Boss]

If dinosaurs survived on Madagascar, then I'd imagine that the first group of settlers to the island who managed to tame the dinosaurs would become a dominant empire. I'd imagine life would look something like Dinotopia or The Dinosaur Lords, where you have dinos being used as beasts of burden, knights riding dinos into battle, princes riding atop Brachiosaurus, and so on. Dinosaur tamers would be highly sought after by other nations, who would try to bribe them into their service. being a dinosaur tamer/breed/raiser would be an extremely lucrative profession, moreso than horse breeders were during the pre-modern period.






Dinosaurs would dominate warfare until firearms technology becomes advanced enough that a single soldier can kill a big dino charging at them.

As for tactics used during dinosaur warfare, I'm not sure if the Roman tactics of phalanxes to defeat the Persian elephants would work. Dinosaurs may or may not have thicker skin.

The Dinosaur Lords may have explored medieval dino warfare in more detail, but I never made it through the first chapter. It was so boring.

 

[History Learner]

Great birds on Magadascar were hunted down so bigger dino would die,too,but smaller species should survive.Just like with lemurs.
And Madagascar would become rich thanks to all turist coming there.Maybe entire island would live only from that.

Yeah, I'd imagine the Terror Birds and the like would be hunted down. I figure the Sauropods, however, would go the way of the Asian Elephants; domesticated for use as beats of burden.

 

[Free-Stater 101]

AOT but without humans, societal problem and walls and replace titans with dinosaurs.

 

[stevep]

If dinosaurs survived on Madagascar, then I'd imagine that the first group of settlers to the island who managed to tame the dinosaurs would become a dominant empire. I'd imagine life would look something like Dinotopia or The Dinosaur Lords, where you have dinos being used as beasts of burden, knights riding dinos into battle, princes riding atop Brachiosaurus, and so on. Dinosaur tamers would be highly sought after by other nations, who would try to bribe them into their service. being a dinosaur tamer/breed/raiser would be an extremely lucrative profession, moreso than horse breeders were during the pre-modern period.






Dinosaurs would dominate warfare until firearms technology becomes advanced enough that a single soldier can kill a big dino charging at them.

As for tactics used during dinosaur warfare, I'm not sure if the Roman tactics of phalanxes to defeat the Persian elephants would work. Dinosaurs may or may not have thicker skin.

The Dinosaur Lords may have explored medieval dino warfare in more detail, but I never made it through the first chapter. It was so boring.

That would depend on how practical they are to tame. That's one reason why Africa has struggled so much and Latin America as they simply didn't have much in the way of animals that could be domesticated, despite Africa especially having such a broad span of animals. For instance both the Indian and N African elephant proved domesticated but the elephant of sub-Saharan Africa did not.

Also this assumes that such large animals could be maintained, as they would need a hell of a lot of food even if they could be tamed. If your got huge sauropods that would be a serious issue in trying to take them overseas and then maintaining them in a different environment. I'm not going to even contemplate the idea of taming a large carnivore like a T Rex!

I'm not saying it would be impossible to tame any dinosaur but it wouldn't be certain either. Coupled with the costs of maintaining them, transferring them to some other shore then keeping them healthy and under control could be big issues.

 

[Sailor.X]

There is a chance some of the Dinosaurs could have made it to mainland Africa during the Ice Age. The Sea Level was very low exposing several islands that would make an easy hoping point for Dinos to get to the Dark Continent. Similar things happened in what is now Europe during the Mesozoic.

 

[History Learner]

That would depend on how practical they are to tame. That's one reason why Africa has struggled so much and Latin America as they simply didn't have much in the way of animals that could be domesticated, despite Africa especially having such a broad span of animals. For instance both the Indian and N African elephant proved domesticated but the elephant of sub-Saharan Africa did not.

Also this assumes that such large animals could be maintained, as they would need a hell of a lot of food even if they could be tamed. If your got huge sauropods that would be a serious issue in trying to take them overseas and then maintaining them in a different environment. I'm not going to even contemplate the idea of taming a large carnivore like a T Rex!

I'm not saying it would be impossible to tame any dinosaur but it wouldn't be certain either. Coupled with the costs of maintaining them, transferring them to some other shore then keeping them healthy and under control could be big issues.

The weight of a Rapetosaurus is about as much as an elephant according to Kristina Curry Rogers, and the social sophistication would place it about the same level of the Asian Elephant.

 

[stevep]

The weight of a Rapetosaurus is about as much as an elephant according to Kristina Curry Rogers, and the social sophistication would place it about the same level of the Asian Elephant.

According to wiki, which mentions her discovery of the remain, that is roughly the estimated weight of a juvenile Rapetosaurus. It mentions that such a juvenile would have the weight of an elephant. The full quote is

It was fairly modest in size, for a titanosaur. The juvenile specimen measured 8 metres (26 ft) from head to tail, and "probably weighed about as much as an elephant". An adult would have been about twice as long (15 metres (49 ft) in length)[2] which is still less than half the length of its gigantic kin, like Argentinosaurus and Paralititan. In 2020 Molina-Perez and Larramendi estimated the size of the probable adult specimen (MAD 93-18), which is known from a femur, at 16.5 meters (54 ft) and 10.3 tonnes (11.35 short tons).

As such it sounds like an adult would be substantially larger than even an African elephant.

I'm not sure how the different characteristics, with a longer neck and tail would have affected the creature's suitability for either a beast of burden or a possible war machine. It might even be better although assuming any controller was mounted on the body of the beast that means long reins to the head to control it as a rider couldn't simply reach the head with a stick from such a position.

One other factor is are the sauropods cold or warm blooded or something between as that would affect both their potential use and their food requirement but is there a clear decision on that nowadays. [As far as I'm aware its been an heated issues for at least 50 years].

As I said they may be suitable for domestication and even for military use but there are a lot of issues to consider.

Steve

 

[Ariel Schnee]

Well...

It all depends on one important thing.

Do they develop sapience, or remain dumb animals instead?

 

[ATP]

Well...

It all depends on one important thing.

Do they develop sapience, or remain dumb animals instead?

Herbivores rarely are sapient,althought...elephants are quite smart.Maybe some human-sized raptors could become sapient ?
once i read about such possibility.

 

[BlackDragon98]

[REDACTED]

 

[Buba]

So, it is a wee matter of surviving 65 MILLION years?
BTW - where was Madagascar 65MYA? Wasn't it attached to India at that time? Also - didn't Madagascar experience glaciation (even if partial) at certain points between 65MYA and today, making it not very reptile friendly?

EDIT:
88MYA Madagascar and India "parted ways".

 

[Bear Ribs]

So, it is a wee matter of surviving 65 MILLION years?
BTW - where was Madagascar 65MYA? Wasn't it attached to India at that time? Also - didn't Madagascar experience glaciation (even if partial) at certain points between 65MYA and today, making it not very reptile friendly?

Quite honestly surviving 65 million years isn't that surprising. Tyrannosaurus was 65 million years ago, and Allosaurus was 155 million years. Tyrannosaurus and human are closer together than Allosaurus and Tyrannosaurus. Dinosaurs lasted a really long time. There's also several species that have fundamentally not changed a bit in longer than that, several sharks are in the hundred million years range, f'rex, and lampreys are over 360 million.

 

[Erwin_Pommel]

The Dinosaur Lords may have explored medieval dino warfare in more detail, but I never made it through the first chapter. It was so boring.

Can agree with that, bought it at Forbidden Planet because it was Dinosaurs and Knights, like, cool, only then it turned out to be a confused mess of a story that jumped all over the place and was just a big what-if Spain was dinosaur land... Blegh. How it even got a quote of recommendation from George of A Song of Ice and Fire fame is beyond me.

"WI: Dinosaurs survived on Madagascar"
I like to think my answer is simple, my life goal would be to become a dinosaur breeder as younger me was pretty much nothing but dinosaurs.

 

[Agent Mulder]

Given how isolated madagascar is I doubt they'd play as big a role as people are assuming. More likely they'd be in zoos across the world and facing extinction in their native habitat like most other forms of megafauna. Also, taming a dinosaur is way easier said than done. Most dinosaurs aren't exactly dogs. Raptors do admittedly have some similarities with wolves, which we did tame, but raptors are a lot bigger than wolves.

 

[History Learner]

Given how isolated madagascar is I doubt they'd play as big a role as people are assuming. More likely they'd be in zoos across the world and facing extinction in their native habitat like most other forms of megafauna. Also, taming a dinosaur is way easier said than done. Most dinosaurs aren't exactly dogs. Raptors do admittedly have some similarities with wolves, which we did tame, but raptors are a lot bigger than wolves.

Basically what I was thinking, with the native Sauropods being more akin to Oxen rather than Dogs.

 

[ATP]

I've heard rumors of large sauropod like dinosaurs surviving deep in the rainforests of Central Africa, so it's technically possible for dinosaurs to survive on the tropical island of Madagascar. They would probably be limited to that island alone and transporting them elsewhere probably kills them.

On a similar note, isolated populations of woolly mammoth survived on Wrangel Island and St. Paul Island up until 4000 BC, so as long as the dinosaurs aren't hunted to extinction they stand a pretty good chance.

Monkele-mbebe/diplodoc-like/,and 2 other kinds which looked like triceratops and Stegosaur.
Interesting thing - when locals hunters was asked to show animal they knew,they showed pictures of that trio of dinosaurus,not any other.And they,at least in 19th and early 20th century,spoke about animals they killed and eaten sometimes.

That also Suth america - Conan-Doyle write his story when he learned what lcal indians talk about animals living on some tepui /mountains/there - diplodoc and allosaur like.