WI: Christian Japan

[Circle of Willis]

With Christmas a few days away, this seems like a good time to pitch this question. During the mid-to-late Sengoku period, several Japanese clans were enamored not only by the trade goods brought by the 'Nanban' (Europeans - at first Portuguese & Spaniards for the most part) but also their religion. These clans converted to Christianity and promoted the new faith in their lands, where it also gained some steam with the commons - IIRC 300,000 Christians (including a number of native Japanese priests, some of whom were martyred by the increasingly anti-Christian governments of Toyotomi Hideyoshi and then Tokugawa Ieyasu) were reported at the height of Western missionary activity in Japan. As we know though, none of those clans came even close to unifying Japan (the closest to get there were the Otomo, who unified the northern half of the westernmost island of Kyushu and seemed to be a contender for control of the whole island until they were badly beaten by their regional Shimazu rivals at the Battle of Mimigawa) and Christianity was ruthlessly suppressed by the Tokugawa who did eventually unite the country.

So, what if the Oda/Toyotomi/Tokugawa triad were not the ones to unite Japan, but were instead beaten to it by a Christian (not merely Christian-friendly, but actual converts) clan? The aforementioned Otomo (the subject of many 'power of God and anime' memes from the Shogun 2 Total War community outward) seem like the best bet since they really do seem to have been the single most powerful Christian clan in Japan's Sengoku Period and their greatest lord, Otomo Sorin sent the first formal Japanese diplomatic mission to Europe. If you can think of alternatives, I'd happily hear them out: the only other potential convert/unifier I can think of right now are the Ouchi, who hosted Francis Xavier in Yamaguchi for a time but were toppled by the Mori barely a decade after the Portuguese came to Japan. In any case how does Japanese, and indeed East Asian, history proceed with Japan being a Christian-led power aligned with the Spanish/Portuguese and presumably remaining open to the world, rather than the fervently isolationist Tokugawa Shogunate of reality?

 

[Buba]

A Christian Japan need not necessarily be aligned with the Iberian Powers - which will go their separate ways in 1640 - as the Protestants are coming soon to a Church near you!
And the Orthodox are just around the corner too ...

 

[Circle of Willis]

A Christian Japan need not necessarily be aligned with the Iberian Powers - which will go their separate ways in 1640 - as the Protestants are coming soon to a Church near you!
And the Orthodox are just around the corner too ...

My understanding is that the Protestants came to Japan with business as their priority, not conversion, and that was why the Tokugawa were more chill toward Dutch traders than Iberian ones. The Orthodox Russians did make it to the Pacific around the mid-17th century (IIRC Okhotsk got founded ~1650?) but seem like they'd have trouble projecting power & influence toward Japan, since they couldn't even beat the Qing in various border disputes on land around this same timeframe.

I'd agree that overall Japan doesn't have to and quite possibly won't remain buddies with the Spanish-Portuguese though. Even if they become Catholics, expanding southward into the Philippines/East Indies seems like a project that would interest them - lots of riches (spice trade, long before oil becomes a necessity!), much nicer weather than Hokkaido & beyond, and less massive & organized enemies than they're sure to find in China. And obviously, if the history of western Europe around this time is any indicator it's hardly unheard of for two Catholic kingdoms to go to war with one another when geopolitics makes it seem logical.

I wonder if the local peculiarities of Japanese society might lead even a Catholic Japan to a schism with Rome, as well, or at least Rome coming up with a Japanese Rite if the leadership of the Church is willing to take a more pragmatic attitude (something like the Jesuits' attitude toward ancestor worship in China). There's a lot to unpack there - how to make the Japanese Emperors' claim to descent from Amaterasu the sun goddess mesh with the Shoguns' strictly monotheistic new religion for example. (I'd also imagine the new regime can't go around demolishing old shrines left & right for long, as the Otomo army and other overzealous converts did when on the warpath, because that would obviously create too many tensions with their still Buddhist-Shintoist majority subjects at a time when Christians will still be far from comprising even 50% of the population)

 

[Skallagrim]

I still think the best way would be to start with Oda. He's in a good position already, whereas the actual Christian nobles aren't. But he's tolerant, at least. So have Oda survive, and then have Toyotomi (and maybe Tokugawa) get killed at some point in the near future, instead. Then have another assassination attempt on Oda fail due to a Christian saving him, and you're set for them to get a favoured position.

Assuming Oda Nobunaga lives longer, then Nobutada will be his heir (as he distinctly indicated was his wish in OTL). You can easily craft a scenario where he becomes a patron of Christians, albeit probably still not a Christian himself. But there's a good chance that political rivals would use one of his brothers as a puppet, and use opposition to "foreign influences" as one of their key justifications for that kind of thing.

Obviously, the Christians fight for Oda Nobutada, and assuming they win, their fiercest enemies have just been cast down and branded traitors, whereas they showed themselves as loyal men. From there, a path to greater influence, and eventual religious supremacy, can plausibly be traversed.

I imagine this will involve a series of civil wars, during which reactionary elements try to overthrow the Oda Shogunate, possibly trying to claim that they're fighting for the Emperor. Eventually, that could see an actually Christian Shogun, by now leading a sizable Christian population, to outright remove the Emperor (and commit to a drastic purge of the most obvious internal foes), and then claim uncontested rulership in his own name-- starting a new, overtly Christian period in Japanese history.

 

[Circle of Willis]

I still think the best way would be to start with Oda. He's in a good position already, whereas the actual Christian nobles aren't. But he's tolerant, at least. So have Oda survive, and then have Toyotomi (and maybe Tokugawa) get killed at some point in the near future, instead. Then have another assassination attempt on Oda fail due to a Christian saving him, and you're set for them to get a favoured position.

Assuming Oda Nobunaga lives longer, then Nobutada will be his heir (as he distinctly indicated was his wish in OTL). You can easily craft a scenario where he becomes a patron of Christians, albeit probably still not a Christian himself. But there's a good chance that political rivals would use one of his brothers as a puppet, and use opposition to "foreign influences" as one of their key justifications for that kind of thing.

Obviously, the Christians fight for Oda Nobutada, and assuming they win, their fiercest enemies have just been cast down and branded traitors, whereas they showed themselves as loyal men. From there, a path to greater influence, and eventual religious supremacy, can plausibly be traversed.

I imagine this will involve a series of civil wars, during which reactionary elements try to overthrow the Oda Shogunate, possibly trying to claim that they're fighting for the Emperor. Eventually, that could see an actually Christian Shogun, by now leading a sizable Christian population, to outright remove the Emperor (and commit to a drastic purge of the most obvious internal foes), and then claim uncontested rulership in his own name-- starting a new, overtly Christian period in Japanese history.

Huh. It would seem that Nobunaga's grandson Hidenobu (son of Nobutada) was actually a Catholic convert himself, which would explain both his alignment with Ishida Mitsunari before Sekigahara (most if not all of the other Christian daimyo, like former Korean expeditionary commander Konishi Yukinaga, chose Mitsunari/Toyotomi Hideyori's side) and why he didn't kill himself after that battle ended in defeat, unlike his own vassals. Seems like an Oda Shogunate would work just fine in the medium term then, as you suggest.

The Oda have never been particularly beholden to Japanese traditions (as Nobunaga himself would demonstrate over and over) so I could imagine Hidenobu basically being a chip off the old block when it comes time to deal with the Yamato. Disposing of the old imperial line and declaring himself the first Christian 'King of Japan' would certainly be one way to sidestep the religious complexities of trying to mash said imperial line's claimed divine lineage with Catholic teachings, and probably wouldn't even be seen as especially out of character for the grandson of the dreaded 'Demon King' by Buddhist diehards ITL.

 

[Buba]

The Japanese could examine the various brands of Christanity on offer - even reach out and "shop around". Maybe Presbyterianism will catch their fancy - "democratic", maybe Orthodoxy or High Church Lutheranism/Anglicanism - more showy, with a priesthood. None comes with a single non-Japanese authority, all are open to use of vernacular in rites and rituals.
Orthodoxy - which could be encountered earlier by "get to know the world" Japanese exploration - being politically "weak" could be a positive, at least to some. I'd not rule out the possibility of any flavour putting down roots or the paralel co-existence of various denominations.

 

[ATP]

With Christmas a few days away, this seems like a good time to pitch this question. During the mid-to-late Sengoku period, several Japanese clans were enamored not only by the trade goods brought by the 'Nanban' (Europeans - at first Portuguese & Spaniards for the most part) but also their religion. These clans converted to Christianity and promoted the new faith in their lands, where it also gained some steam with the commons - IIRC 300,000 Christians (including a number of native Japanese priests, some of whom were martyred by the increasingly anti-Christian governments of Toyotomi Hideyoshi and then Tokugawa Ieyasu) were reported at the height of Western missionary activity in Japan. As we know though, none of those clans came even close to unifying Japan (the closest to get there were the Otomo, who unified the northern half of the westernmost island of Kyushu and seemed to be a contender for control of the whole island until they were badly beaten by their regional Shimazu rivals at the Battle of Mimigawa) and Christianity was ruthlessly suppressed by the Tokugawa who did eventually unite the country.

So, what if the Oda/Toyotomi/Tokugawa triad were not the ones to unite Japan, but were instead beaten to it by a Christian (not merely Christian-friendly, but actual converts) clan? The aforementioned Otomo (the subject of many 'power of God and anime' memes from the Shogun 2 Total War community outward) seem like the best bet since they really do seem to have been the single most powerful Christian clan in Japan's Sengoku Period and their greatest lord, Otomo Sorin sent the first formal Japanese diplomatic mission to Europe. If you can think of alternatives, I'd happily hear them out: the only other potential convert/unifier I can think of right now are the Ouchi, who hosted Francis Xavier in Yamaguchi for a time but were toppled by the Mori barely a decade after the Portuguese came to Japan. In any case how does Japanese, and indeed East Asian, history proceed with Japan being a Christian-led power aligned with the Spanish/Portuguese and presumably remaining open to the world, rather than the fervently isolationist Tokugawa Shogunate of reality?

As @Skallagrim said,friendly Oda gave best chance for that.
Of course,they would probably fight with spaniards over Philippines and maybe North America/Kuro-siwo is sea road there/
But they would remain catholics - probably in their own version,answering directly to popes.

A Christian Japan need not necessarily be aligned with the Iberian Powers - which will go their separate ways in 1640 - as the Protestants are coming soon to a Church near you!
And the Orthodox are just around the corner too ...

Since there was no orthodox envoys then,and protestants cared about money,not religion/dutch had no problems with walking on cross/ ,then no,there would be no such thing.

You forget,that people once REALLY belived in their religion,and they convert to find God,not political or economical advantages.
And you think about current pope and greek orthodox,not how it look like about 1600AD.

Becouse ANY foreign leader who would look at Catholic,Orthodox and heretics would choose popes.

P.S They could even discover Australia!

 

[Buba]

dutch had no problems with walking on cross

I recommend

Ikonoklazm – Wikipedia, wolna encyklopedia

pl.wikipedia.org

Iconoclasm - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

To some strands of Christianity the cross is not so important. To them awarding it importance reeks of idolatry/bałwochwalstwo, which is a Bad Thing and Soul Damning.

Nevertheelss, back to our sheep - I repeat that IMO any brand of Christianity is possible.

As to discovering Australia - ask around at the bazaar in Surabaya or Djakarta, and they will point you in the right direction.
In OTL the Land Down Under was discovered by Europeans in 1606, hence this date is "just around the corner".

 

[bintananth]

I can't say much about what circumstances would have resulted in a Christianized Japan or which version of Christianity they'd adopt.

The butterflies ...

A Christianized Japan c.1650 would be a "western" world power European powers have to respect and treat as an equal. The Samurai of the late-Warring States period loved firearms, used them extensively, and actually wrote drill manuals describing how to train Ashigaru for effective night fighting while it's raining back when loading one meant handling gunpowder while holding a lit match ... without letting either get wet.

 

[Buba]

wrote drill manuals describing how to train Ashigaru for effective night fighting while it's raining back when loading one meant handling gunpowder while holding a lit match ... without letting either get wet.

All praise the Horned Rat for prehensile tails!

 

[Agent23]

The Japanese could examine the various brands of Christanity on offer - even reach out and "shop around". Maybe Presbyterianism will catch their fancy - "democratic", maybe Orthodoxy or High Church Lutheranism/Anglicanism - more showy, with a priesthood. None comes with a single non-Japanese authority, all are open to use of vernacular in rites and rituals.
Orthodoxy - which could be encountered earlier by "get to know the world" Japanese exploration - being "weak" could be a positive, at least to some. I'd not rule out the possibility of any flavour putting down roots or the paralel co-existence of various denominations.

methinks that Eastern Orthodox with the emperor serving as head of the church and it being independent from central supranational church authorities will be the easiest one for them to swallow.

 

[Buba]

methinks that Eastern Orthodox with the emperor serving as head of the church and it being independent from central supranational church authorities will be the easiest one for them to swallow.

Pretty much the same applies to Lutheranism ...
Now, how to syncrethise the Theokotos and Amaterasu ...

 

[VictortheMonarch]

A Christian Japan need not necessarily be aligned with the Iberian Powers - which will go their separate ways in 1640 - as the Protestants are coming soon to a Church near you!
And the Orthodox are just around the corner too ...

Even then by this point the Nestorian Church wasn't completely dead (and still isn't, just split between two difference sects). So it's whole heartedly possible Christianity could've been brought onto Japan with a successful Mongol Invasion.

 

[ATP]

I recommend

Ikonoklazm – Wikipedia, wolna encyklopedia

pl.wikipedia.org

Iconoclasm - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

To some strands of Christianity the cross is not so important. To them awarding it importance reeks of idolatry/bałwochwalstwo, which is a Bad Thing and Soul Damning.

Nevertheelss, back to our sheep - I repeat that IMO any brand of Christianity is possible.

As to discovering Australia - ask around at the bazaar in Surabaya or Djakarta, and they will point you in the right direction.
In OTL the Land Down Under was discovered by Europeans in 1606, hence this date is "just around the corner".

1.Then,they are not Christians at all,becouse Jesus is God,and everybody could see HIM.Somebody plaing in iconoclazm is not Christian,but jew,becouse only in judaism people could not see God,or they die.
And protestants were jews eating pigs.Except being tool of their state.

2.Not every brand,but those with ships sailing to Japan in those times.Which mean - no orthodox.
And,since becoming protestants mean being subject of King wwhom they served,it is no-go for Japan.
When becoming catholics subjected to pope mean being independent and being ruled only by shogun.

3.Indonesiansfishermans discovered Australia - in 18th century.So,they would not help anybody discover it.

 

[Buba]

Even then by this point the Nestorian Church wasn't completely dead (and still isn't, just split between two difference sects). So it's whole heartedly possible Christianity could've been brought onto Japan with a successful Mongol Invasion.

The OP specific middle to late Sengoku Period.
Also, Nestorianism might be identified with the Mongols too much as to be attractive to Japanese. So I'd eliminate that route.

However ... maybe some Nestorians flee Ming persecution for non-Han Thoughtcrime to Japan? And thrive, forming a small prosperous yet usually under-the-radar minority, being otherwise Nipoonised. Then, when the fashion for Christianity rolls along, they become attractive as being a brand already tailored to Japanese tastes?
Or simply a Nestorian St.Patrick?

 

[ATP]

The OP specific middle to late Sengoku Period.
Also, Nestorianism might be identified with the Mongols too much as to be attractive to Japanese. So I'd eliminate that route.

However ... maybe some Nestorians flee Ming persecution for non-Han Thoughtcrime to Japan? And thrive, forming a small prosperous yet usually under-the-radar minority, being otherwise Nipoonised. Then, when the fashion for Christianity rolls along, they become attractive as being a brand already tailored to Japanese tastes?
Or simply a Nestorian St.Patrick?

Or nestorians coming to Japan earlier.I remember story about skilled craftsman from 8th century AD who come to Japan from China mass producing bronze,who supposed to be christian.
Since there were no other christians there then nestorians,it must be one of them.They were relatively popular during Tang dynasty,but vanished till Ming times.

So,what about group of skilled craftsman going to Japan in 8th century,and creating very useful minority?

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

my inner weeb loves the idea of a Christian Japan but I can't help but fear what it has done in the long term. Politicized religion has done a lot to destroy cultural cohesion and identity especially when said religion kowtows to the politics of the Current Day Thing *see the modern Catholic Church and just about every protestant mega-church on the planet.*

Seeing what the Scandinavians have become over the last 50-100 years or so has been depressing.

 

[ATP]

my inner weeb loves the idea of a Christian Japan but I can't help but fear what it has done in the long term. Politicized religion has done a lot to destroy cultural cohesion and identity especially when said religion kowtows to the politics of the Current Day Thing *see the modern Catholic Church and just about every protestant mega-church on the planet.

Seeing what the Scandinavians have become over the last 50-100 years or so has been depressing.

Yes,religion as tool of state destroy each society.But - catholics then were not tool of state,except Spain.Japan could do fine ,like Portugal till masons take over.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

Yes,religion as tool of state destroy each society.But - catholics then were not tool of state,except Spain.Japan could do fine ,like Portugal till masons take over.

I know. what I'm saying is I'm not sure what the ripples in the long term would be. I'm sure it'd start out fine until the world wars. After that I'm not sure. Would they still be based or would they be as woke as the rest of the world is right now? I truly don't know.

 

[Circle of Willis]

I know. what I'm saying is I'm not sure what the ripples in the long term would be. I'm sure it'd start out fine until the world wars. After that I'm not sure. Would they still be based or would they be as woke as the rest of the world is right now? I truly don't know.

With a POD 300+ years back, I think the chances of anything resembling our world wars (or even ideologies) still happening is virtually nil. Not to say a world war or two in the early 20th century would be totally impossible, but the butterfly effect could very well ensure that it's a world war between a globe-spanning Habsburg giga-empire (with the Christian Japan as one of its allies) on one hand and a coalition of a Dzunghar-founded Neo-Yuan China & a Maratha-united India on the other (or something equally out there), while Nazism & Communism don't even exist due to the ancestors of Hitler, Marx and Jean-Jacques Rousseau eating cannonballs in a random 17th-century battle during the alt-timeline's Thirty Years' War equivalent.