United States Why the hate for Donald Trump? I'm genuinely curious.

Culsu

Agent of the Central Plasma
Founder
Yes, looking at the title I'm a couple of years late to the show, but bear with me. I've been sitting on the sidelines watching half a country and 80% of global media devolve into a delusional mob when it comes to the U.S. president ever since he announced he was running for office in earnest in 2016. And, truth be told, I just don't get the why?

I mean, parts of it I do get. If your preference for politicians is the slick party professional who has gone through all the DC hoops and loops, or any other career politician in the broadly western world, Trump certainly isn't that. He's brash, too eager to go off script for many, egocentric, boorish even. He looks like an oversized oompa-loompa. He has funny or weird mannerisms. But these are superficial things (which don't bother me personally, but I understand that they might bother someone else). Me personally I prefer a straught talker even if he or she ends up sticking their foot in their mouth once in a while.

Is it that he doesn't play the press' and blue Twitter checkmarks' game and that he has by and large turned the tables on them? Is it that he, more or less, could also reach his followers by completely bypassing traditional channels?

Is it his stance on the border? But how is that stance substantially different from the presidents preceeding him. Sure, he's more vocal on it, and he's putting more pressure on Mexico (actually, it's probably that he's putting any pressure on Mexico at all that is making the border less porous...), but in essence his actions are not that different from what others have done before him? He's just a bit more... loud and pressing on it?

As far as social policies go, I really don't know enough about the US developments these past three and a half years, but by and large Trump seems like and old school social liberal to me. It's certainly not as if he's leading an arch-conservative, bible-thumping regime, leaving all diggs at Mike Pence?! Dude's pro gay, has been married more than once, has a Jewish son-in-law.

Under his government economic activity and prosperity has soared for the overwhelming majority of US citizens. Nobody can deny this. Sure, it can be claimed that this might be more due to some long-term effects of policies enacted by Obama rather than just by his early term tax cuts (which might be possible, if one looks at the reforms of German chancellor Gerhard Schröder that enabled much of the prosperity that Merkel's governments have enjoyed). But the outcome is the same: people prosper (or prospered until CoViD-19, but then that's hit everybody squarely in the balls). Massively, going by the pre-CoViD-19 unemployment figures. Businesses returned to the US, and businesses in the US have received greater protection from outside dumping price competitors, meaning jobs either stayed or were created in the US.

Is it Russiagate? That Nothingburger-from-the-start? I'm sorry, everybody looking from the outside in who didn't have their heads stuck up their own asses could see that this was bogus. I'm really baffled by the position that it ought to have needed Putin's magic finger for a business- and showman with decades of nationwide media exposure to beat a grumpy DC harpy suffering from party infighting. It's also a pretty risky stance to take, given the numbers of elections the US itself has actively meddled in! Ukraine comes to mind, which was an Obama op, if I'm not mistaken.^^

With regards to US military interventionism, this is maybe the one where it logically baffles my mind the most. Primarily because I like a certain amount of consistency in political stances. How can it be that one political side went from a broad anti-war, anti-interventionist stance that had large public support in the first half of the first decade to praising to heaven and back someone who was busy drone bombing half the planet to smithereens while at the same time lobbying for that someone to receive the Nobel Peace Prize? Only to complete the 180° by throwing their weight behind a candidate who, while possessing all the virility of a mummified corpse, proclaimed a foreign policy stance that would have gotten the US into a shooting war with the only other near peer power on the globe on an issue where the other guy would never have backed down!?

And yet at the same time the news outlets and seemingly half the electorate where busy screeching about something Trump said - at that point - something like ten years ago. The "grab them by the pussy" bit. Boorish, again, yes. Inappropriate, sure - in any official circumstance. But out of the ordinary in a seemingly private conversation between two machos trying to out-alpha each other? Because no man has ever talked hilariously inappropriate shit in private, ever, right? What does Trump's shit-talking ten years past in private have to do with his qualifications and stances for president in 2016? How does this in any way, shape or form disqualify his government's achievements or policies or, at that point, plans? That shit went on for weeks!

And now you've got a US government that's been trying to scale back US interventionist involvement against all internal and external pressures, something leftists have been clamoring for for decades - and that's wrong again? Suffenly you need more troops on foreign soil, more interventionist strikes? Huh?!?

Really, I don't get the scizophrenia. I freely admit that most likely I don't even have half the info I need as an outsider, but just from the way the overall sizuation has presented itself to me during the past years I can't wrap my mind around this. Disagree with his policies, fine. But then present viable alternatives. All it seems to me is that leftists seem to get stuck on fighting the man's style, but they've got no idea how to fight his policies' substance?!? Why this irrational hate? I get not liking the man's style. I get not being behind his policies. What I don't get is this nigh religious fervour with which he is hated?
 

CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
@Culsu
Long text, but I just have to ask you the following:
1) How much do people even remember before 2016 or the 2010s
2) How much do people even know much regarding actual history that is NOT abridged or simplified for class schedules and possible propaganda purposes?
3) How much do people even know what goes in-terms of politics and economics in-detail

People have short and/or selective memories
 

Culsu

Agent of the Central Plasma
Founder
@Culsu
Long text, but I just have to ask you the following:
1) How much do people even remember before 2016 or the 2010s
2) How much do people even know much regarding actual history that is NOT abridged or simplified for class schedules and possible propaganda purposes?
3) How much do people even know what goes in-terms of politics and economics in-detail

People have short and/or selective memories
The apparent answers seems to me "less with every passing years than the years before". I've just never encountered this kind of completely over the top hysterical shrieking in place of actual political debate. It honestly was never that bad before!
 

CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
The apparent answers seems to me "less with every passing years than the years before". I've just never encountered this kind of completely over the top hysterical shrieking in place of actual political debate. It honestly was never that bad before!

Or it already was, they just weren’t activated yet and maintained the idea they were the sane ones
 

Shipmaster Sane

You have been weighed
It's nothing new, it's just like, 50%-100% more than Bush.

Rah rah rah, bush devil bush devil bush devil all we heard for eight years, there was even a cringey comedy central cartoon, like not some one off thing, but week after week, that was nothing but lame George bush jokes. They screech the same shit every single time, you should read what the democrats used to shriek about Lincoln, same shit.


The difference is that Trump actively baits them, he inflames them as much as he can on purpose.
 

CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
The difference is that Trump actively baits them, he inflames them as much as he can on purpose.

It's weird how someone as old as Trump learned to use things like Twitter and sorta troll people en masse

I think him actively baiting them is the key to make them get worse

When they get worse, they end up disillusioning some people and Trump in turn gets more supporters or simply put his opposition fails to receive said people. Only relying on crazy Far Left college students(who were a thing before), Hollywood Celebrities, other Far Left entertainment producers who act as if they're anything new or in-danger and lots of illegal immigrants.
 

Culsu

Agent of the Central Plasma
Founder
The thing is, I understand what Trump does and why, but I don't understand the reactions to it.
 

CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
The thing is, I understand what Trump does and why, but I don't understand the reactions to it.

I think it has to do with your Left having gone even further Left recently and combining with so many other things like Identity Politics and the idea of Globalism and China as the way of the future

Trump winning, even before he won, was a sign of so much being challenged

It’s NOW that they have to take their stands lest their worldview shatter some more
 

Shipmaster Sane

You have been weighed
The thing is, I understand what Trump does and why, but I don't understand the reactions to it.
It's not that hard. Look at how inflamed they were about George (He'll kill us all! He engineered Katrina! aaaah devil devil devil aaaaah) with him basically never responding to anyone or having any personal media presence, and then add someone constantly and actively trying to prompt the hysterics already going on.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
Danged forum ate my post.

So, more vicious? I do think that's the case and I think there's a couple reasons, however it's not as extreme as you might think.

Consider the Kavanaugh nomination. Democrats scream about how refusing to talk on the nomination for six months destroyed all norms and was a breach of any reason. Yet under GW Bush the Democrats did the same thing, refusing to see any nominations to any court, for a year and a half, ending only when they lost control of the senate. And then in 2007 3 years later? They got a 51-49 majority in congress and did it again. Both sides do the same things over and over. Let's see a speech, and I'll redact the names.

---'s America is a land in which women would be forced into back-alley abortions, blacks would sit at segregated lunch counters, rogue police could break down citizens' doors in midnight raids, schoolchildren could not be taught about evolution, writers and artists could be censored at the whim of the Government, and the doors of the Federal courts would be shut on the fingers of millions of citizens for whom the judiciary is—and is often the only—protector of the individual rights that are the heart of our democracy ... President --- is still our president. But he should not be able to reach out from the muck of ---, reach into the muck of Watergate and impose his reactionary vision of the Constitution on the Supreme Court and the next generation of Americans. No justice would be better than this injustice.

Look familiar? Maybe an attack on Kavanaugh? That speech happened well over 40 years ago in the first hour of the nomination of Robert Bork, who was attacked so viciously that to "Bork" something up is used as a euphemism for breaking it even to this day. Things aren't quite as different as they look, only moderate changes in scale.

So why do I say it is a bit worse*? The main difference is twofold. First Social Media. G.I.F.T. is a thing. Social media makes echo chambers and sharing outrage much, much easier. The second is generations. Look at political attacks where ageism comes into play. What two words come to mind? Boomer and Millennial. Where are Deneration X, Deneration Y, and the Silent Generation? They don't vote as much so they don't matter in political discussions. Millennials are among the most aggressively political generation in decades, I suspect because their parents put them through college in larger numbers and got more indoctrinated by the notoriously partisan faculties. This yields a generation both more able to vote, and less able to remember what happened a few years ago. No Millennial was alive during the Bork administration and most were toddlers when Bush was being blocked on justice nominations so this is all new to them, and adding in social media echo chambers makes it easy to keep them in the dark, letting the media paint what's actually business as usual as if it were something sinister and evil.

*I don't think it's a whole heck of a lot worse, as you might note from Bork.
 

Sol Zagato

Well-known member
Trump has critical differences from all presidents of the last 60+ years.

1. Serious about border restriction. Last president with this stance: Eisenhower
2. Protectionist- essentially Ross Perot's reform party platform. Last president with this stance: Hoover?
3. A blowhard whose main political strategy is to enrage his opponents. Last president????
4. Fat. Last president: Taft
5. Isolationist. Last president: Harding?


Most importantly, our presidents since WWII have been on board with free trade and quasi-empire. This is the bipartisan ruling class perspective, what they consider the business of the United States. Bureaucracies staffed by millions have served that vision for generations. Recently, mass immigration has also become another central unquestioned theme.

Trump is a fundamental break with these very longstanding bipartisan traditions. He's not just any old Skull and Bones Republican. To the establishment, he's an illegitimate usurper.
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
There's two specific things that Trump did and has done which the left in particular, and the political establishment in general, cannot tolerate.

1. He broke Political Correctness. He will call a spade a spade, and beyond that, if you try to throw PC insults at him, he'll throw non-PC insults right back. Breaking the fear of the mass social ostracization/humiliation of the PC is huge. And yes, he didn't break it completely, but before he started, it was far more powerful.

2. He gets things done. Not everything, but he does not accept the glacial 'process' of Washington politics, and he sees actual results as the objective, not 'well we tried.' This probably wouldn't work very well in the legislature, but in the Presidency, it's a pretty effective thing.

That second one in particular is terrifying to the political establishment. If America at large realizes that the reason Washington is so bogged down is because of incompetence, not some inherent aspect of politics that simply cannot be removed, a lot of party leadership and senior politicians are in deep shit.
 

PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
It is simple, for progressives Obama was the promised messiah, who ended the history, they belived that with his election they won forever and Hillary was merely to seal deal. Donald however robbed them of their promised rapture, thus in the eyes of the true beliver he is living embodiment of Satan. And I don't mean the way most people see the Devil - something bad, but as a true devoted believer sees the avatar of all evil.

Thes people claim to be a rational believers, but in reality they are just another sort of religionists, that they themselves so despise. Just look at Mueller, who was portrayed by them as a veritable St. George, who will slay the wicked dragon, there was even Mueller theme worship parnaphelia, like prayer candles, which supposedly sold rather well, before the big dissapointment. Hell, even in my rare excursions into Whitehall I could read the progs talking about him with reverence, not out of place in religious texts.
 

Cherico

Well-known member
Simply put we are going through a political realignment those always suck, the republicans collapsed first after the Bush administration, the old republican coalition was further shattered by Trump who is now rebuilding the party with a new coalition. The democrats are next.

If they lose 2020 which is the most important election of the decade the knives will come out and entire sections of the democratic alliance will be forcibly removed from the party. If they win they can attempt to paper over the increasingly large fissures for a couple years.

A Bernie victory in the primary followed by a loss in the general would have created the best outcome for the democrats rebirth that was dashed if Joe loses a lot of the establishment will be slaughtered by upcoming primaries and a truly ugly purge. No one knows the outcome of all this we just hope it isn't too bad.
 

Shipmaster Sane

You have been weighed
I don't get why he's worse than Hitler either.

He didn't order people in America to be killed.

Overseas killing on the other hand is what he has to inherit from previous president's with their interventions.
They said George Bush was worse than Hitler. If I recall correctly, the first Republican elected after WW2 was publically compared to Hitler.
 

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