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Why the French Revolution was the ultimate cause of our problems

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
Let’s take the concept of privilege as an example.

White privilege, male privilege, etc...

You're making a bait-and-switch argument against socio-cultural privilege, then saying that this refutes legal equality.

Eventually I’d want to develop genetic engineering tech to keep the peasantry in their state. They would be engineered for servility, submissiveness, and obedience. This would be heritable.

Brave New World, then. You do realize that was meant to be satire, right?

Even the Janissary and Mameluke soldiers, who were literal slaves, became major political forces and in the latter case actually became the ruling elite. What likely happens is after a few generations they realise they have all the guns and overthrow the "spiritual aristocracy", becoming a bog-standard warrior elite.

Yeah, the idea of a "servant warrior class" has never, ever worked out at any point in history.

If you're going to play the game of "inferiors and superiors", then the superiors are the people who control the violence, not the people who think they're smarter.

I don't mind them either, in fact every civilization that has ever existed had them. The question is: how do we get the best elites we can?

Over thousands of years of history, the United Kingdom managed to forge a noble class who for the most part really actually tried to live up to the ideals they professed. Then WWI happened, they bravely went to war in the name of their ideals and nation, and they were demographically annihilated, leaving behind little but the selfish and venal white-feather cowards. The aristocracy of the UK has never recovered from that, and probably never will.
 
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Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
Over thousands of years of history, the United Kingdom managed to forge a noble class who for the most part really actually tried to live up to the ideals they professed. Then WWI happened, they bravely went to war in the name of their ideals and nation, and they were demographically annihilated, leaving behind little but the selfish and venal white-feather cowards. The aristocracy of the UK has never recovered from that, and probably never will.

The idea that World War One was a conflict of working class men being sent to die in droves by upper class fops is a Marxian lie. The flower of our aristocracy (and that of Europe in general come to think of it) was cut down in the fields of Flanders, and as far as they were concerned they were dying alongside their countrymen instead of class inferiors.

I'm quite convinced the Great War and the mayhem it unleashed sit at the heart of so much that has gone wrong today, more so than even the French Revolution itself. It destroyed the old orders of Europe (The Austro-Hungarian Empire kept central Europe stable, whilst the Ottomans did the same for the Middle East), practically culled the political elite of brave patriots (World War Two probably wiped out the rest), and broke the barriers keeping radicalism in check.
 

ShieldWife

Marchioness
WWI played a big role in replacing the older aristocracy, one which still had a sense of community and noblesse oblige, with a newer more ruthless and globalist class of rulers. Even outside of those killed in battle, many old British estates were taxed into oblivion to help pay for the war while bankers and war profiteers became richer than ever.
 
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D

Deleted member 88

Guest
You're making a bait-and-switch argument against socio-cultural privilege, then saying that this refutes legal equality.
I’m not exactly sure what you mean here. My point with these forms of privilege(white, male, heterosexual, right handed, whatever) is they are a priori assumed to be bad, and thus injustices to be dismantled.

I’m arguing privilege is inherently good and the privileged should be proud of and aggressively defend their privilege, perhaps they should fight to expand its prerogatives even.
 
The idea that World War One was a conflict of working class men being sent to die in droves by upper class fops is a Marxian lie. The flower of our aristocracy (and that of Europe in general come to think of it) was cut down in the fields of Flanders, and as far as they were concerned they were dying alongside their countrymen instead of class inferiors.

I'm quite convinced the Great War and the mayhem it unleashed sit at the heart of so much that has gone wrong today, more so than even the French Revolution itself. It destroyed the old orders of Europe (The Austro-Hungarian Empire kept central Europe stable, whilst the Ottomans did the same for the Middle East), practically culled the political elite of brave patriots (World War Two probably wiped out the rest), and broke the barriers keeping radicalism in check.


As cynical as this is going to sound, if the great war hadn't killed them, something or someone else would have, because when the chips fall down, everyone is equal when they are the receiving end of a gun barrel. For good or for ill, so long as there are idols, there are going to be those that try to make them bleed and either they or simply time would succeeded in that endeavor. The classical concept of an aristocratic super-class was never going to last forever. All curtains tear no matter how beautiful they look.

What makes Marxist so frustrating is simply the fact they are annoying little liars. They are like that loser brother thar lies through his teeth and no one with half a brain believes a quarter of what he says. Not only are they toxic to be around at this point they are just straight up energy vampires. If they admitted their true intentions (IE we conquer because we can) I might have at least some minor drop of respect for them.
 
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ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
As cynical as this is going to sound, if the great war hadn't killed them, something or someone else would have, because when the chips fall down, everyone is equal when they are the receiving end of a gun barrel. For good or for ill, so long as there are idols, there are going to be those that try to make them bleed and either they or simply time would succeeded in that endeavor. The classical concept of an aristocratic super-class was never going to last forever.

I would point out that the World Wars were immensely lethal events for everyone, not just the nobility, and Sovereign's take on it is grossly disrespectful towards the common soldiers who fought with skill and bravery and laid down their lives for their nation. His further assertion that officers did not even regard common soldiers as countrymen and were really fighting only for the sake of fellow officers, is even more deeply fucked up.

The difference, in practical terms, was that common soldiers who were cowardly and selfish were forced into battle or shot for desertion, whereas nobles who were cowardly and selfish were often able to leverage their power and privilege in order to serve in positions of minimal risk or not serve at all. Sovereign's spin on this is just as dishonest as the Marxists', just in the opposite direction.
 

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
I would point out that the World Wars were immensely lethal events for everyone, not just the nobility, and Sovereign's take on it is grossly disrespectful towards the common soldiers who fought with skill and bravery and laid down their lives for their nation. His further assertion that officers did not even regard common soldiers as countrymen and were really fighting only for the sake of fellow officers, is even more deeply fucked up.

The difference, in practical terms, was that common soldiers who were cowardly and selfish were forced into battle or shot for desertion, whereas nobles who were cowardly and selfish were often able to leverage their power and privilege in order to serve in positions of minimal risk or not serve at all. Sovereign's spin on this is just as dishonest as the Marxists', just in the opposite direction.

Errr...this ain't it, chief.

I don't recall undercutting the skill of the common soldier, merely emphasizing the often much maligned aristocracy's contribution (fuck you, Blackadder). You seem to have jumped to that conclusion. Also, I specifically pointed out that the overwhelming majority of officers didn't feel that way towards their troops. They were all British in the trench and thusly bled the same. For a supposed "butcher", Field Marshal Haig had a lot of his soldiers turn up at his funeral.

And yes, some men are more fortunate than others in terms of their wealth and influence, I didn't even bring that up because it doesn't need mentioning.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
Errr...this ain't it, chief.

I don't recall undercutting the skill of the common soldier, merely emphasizing the often much maligned aristocracy's contribution (fuck you, Blackadder). You seem to have jumped to that conclusion.

You literally claimed that the aristocratic elite were "dying alongside their countrymen instead of class inferiors".

Also, I specifically pointed out that the overwhelming majority of officers didn't feel that way towards their troops. They were all British in the trench and thusly bled the same.

Where did you say this? All I see is you dismissing common soldiers as "class inferiors".

And yes, some men are more fortunate than others in terms of their wealth and influence, I didn't even bring that up because it doesn't need mentioning.

"Some are just more fortunate than others" goes diametrically against your previous insistence that being privileged makes you morally superior and that "class inferiors" should be aggressively suppressed because the concept of equality is evil.
 

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
You literally claimed that the aristocratic elite were "dying alongside their countrymen instead of class inferiors".

Where did you say this? All I see is you dismissing common soldiers as "class inferiors".

"Some are just more fortunate than others" goes diametrically against your previous insistence that being privileged makes you morally superior and that "class inferiors" should be aggressively suppressed because the concept of equality is evil.

Right. Let me make this clear. When I say "class inferiors", I mean what the Marxian left thinks is what the officer class thought of the ordinary tommy. To an officer leading his men into battle, he would have viewed them as his countrymen instead of disposable plebs.

Does that clarify things for you? Now, stop accusing me of things I don't believe.
 

ATP

Well-known member
I think that main problem with 1789 is,that it proven that utopia truly could be tried in RL.
Yes, it ended in genocide and failure - but for true belivers it is only proof,that they do not try hard enough.
Yes, before we had some protestants in 1525 ,but they were killed by both catholics and other protestants.But in 1789 they take over France and almost conqered most of Europe.
Since then, every leftist belive that he could take over contry/continent/Earth and made his/her version of utopia.And if he kill enough people,rest would live in eartly paradise.

Before 1789 almost nobody tried, becouse even progressives do not belived in succes.1789 changed that.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
I think that main problem with 1789 is,that it proven that utopia truly could be tried in RL.
Yes, it ended in genocide and failure - but for true belivers it is only proof,that they do not try hard enough.
Yes, before we had some protestants in 1525 ,but they were killed by both catholics and other protestants.But in 1789 they take over France and almost conqered most of Europe.
Since then, every leftist belive that he could take over contry/continent/Earth and made his/her version of utopia.And if he kill enough people,rest would live in eartly paradise.

Before 1789 almost nobody tried, becouse even progressives do not belived in succes.1789 changed that.

Now this is something I can agree with.
@Navarro I see we have nothing to discuss then. You don't seem to be very interested in arguing with me, so I'm not going to argue against you. I mean characterizing me as some kind of neo-feudalist is a mistake you've made again and again and again, in spite of my repeated corrections.

You're not a neo-feudalist, but you ...

blame the end of feudalism for all society's problems and call it an usurpation

say it's a moral obligation that some form of serfdom exists and furthermore that we other posters here are obligated to live such a life

go on to say that you'd be happy with being a serf.

You come across as something like an absolutely-not-a-communist who views the downfall of the USSR as the greatest disaster in history, says it's a moral obligation that the collective owns the means of production, and says he'd be happy living on a kolkhoz under good 'ole "Uncle Joe" (I am being sarcastic here obviously, in case you can't tell). I mean, there are countries today where the principle you claim has caused as much damage as Communism (that of equality under the law) is unheard of, and you reacted in a fit of rage when I asked why you didn't emigrate to those places, or even to traditionally Catholic countries in Europe such as Lichtenstein or San Marino where it constitutes the state religion.

(Not to mention that de Jouvenel enthusiastically supported one of the most tyrannical, bloodthirsty and intrusive-into-private-life modern states during its period of ascendancy, then later on became a cheerleader for the French Socialist Party and outright communists both at home and abroad. An honest supporter of small-government, localist principles he evidently was not.)

Saying that a particular time period like medieval Europe has its merits over the modern day doesn't mean that I think it's some kind of golden age.

I agree that Medieval Europe had certain merits over the modern day, but remain unconvinced that in order to have the merits it had we need to recreate its political and economic system wholesale, or that the benefits of doing such would outweigh the costs.

It's that kind of outright distortion of my beliefs that makes me think you have some kind of grudge against me.

I mean, this is your consistent pattern of behaviour. You say something outrageous, then when other people argue against it complain at length about how you're being misrepresented, how people are lying about you etc. etc. while continuing to repeat what you originally said and asserting how you're morally superior to your interlocutors.
 
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The Name of Love

Far Right Nutjob
You're not a neo-feudalist, but you ...

blame the end of feudalism for all society's problems and call it an usurpation

say it's a moral obligation that some form of serfdom exists and furthermore that we other posters here are obligated to live such a life

go on to say that you'd be happy with being a serf.

Dishonest as always, eh? Those first two statements aren't even accurate descriptions of my own beliefs.

Also, very nice ad hominem attack on Jouvenel. Shows your true colors.

I don't talk to dishonest actors. I'll be ignoring you from now on.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Whether or not it’s ideal from a moral perspective, having a recognised aristocracy under the law allows the law to have a higher standard of behaviour for them, for example requiring military service. There were also social moral constraints on their behaviour as a consequence of their recognition. The attempt to make society equal has in fact blatantly replaced a recognised aristocracy with an unrecognised one which has no such restraints on its conduct, as we see every day in the vile behaviour of the international globalist monied elite. This was not an improvement and anyone who says it was is a lunatic. However, it’s not necessary to be a monarchy for you to have a recognised aristocracy socially; the United States had one for its first eighty years.

Despite how blatantly this equalism has failed, opening us to the rapacious tyranny of an unchecked, lustful elite which sells its own people for gold, equalists claim that the solution is more equalism—but we already know where that leads, a third kind of elite called the “apparatchiki” who will escalate their contempt for their countrymen by sending them to gulags by the job lot in the name of ideology.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
Dishonest as always, eh? Those first two statements aren't even accurate descriptions of my own beliefs.

Yeah, I'm still not convinced you're right on this. And you fail to realize: all of the problems we have today can be blamed on how we went away from this kind of society. The problems I pointed out with individualism are real, even if my positive solution to them has flaws. Or do you deny this?

In the end, it's about what you value. I don't think us peasants should be living like lords, and you do.

I argue for inequality, and I can conceive of myself being forced to live as the equivalent of a serf and be satisfied with it. If you think that a system of inequality is just, how you end up materially shouldn't really invalidate the theory, now would it?

I literally just paraphrased your own words. Stop pretending you don't believe what you believe. Because you see, that's how you work. You say something absurdly outrageous and offensive to the political sensitivities of almost everyone here, then when challenged on it start whining about how no-one understands what you're really saying and then do things like give a long essay where you say something milquetoast like "I'd be satisfied if the State just recognised the God of the philosophers". Then when it's suggested that you move to an officially Catholic country where the hereditary monarch still holds a significant degree of political power, which goes beyond what you say you'd be satisfied with in a country, you fly into a rage as if outrageously slandered.

I'm sure the thread on the American Revolutionary War, for instance, would have been greatly improved if you had went all out and said "I believe sovereigns are owed an absolute loyalty and subservience by their subjects, and no conceivable act of tyranny could be so great so as to justify a rebellion against them".

At least then we could have had an honest discussion.

Also, very nice ad hominem attack on Jouvenel. Shows your true colors.


He was in favour of Franco-German rapprochement (during the 1930s) and created the "Cercle du grand pavois", which supported the Comité France–Allemagne (Franco-German Committee). Here he became friends with Otto Abetz, the future German ambassador to Paris during the occupation.[4] In February 1936 he interviewed Adolf Hitler for the journal Paris-Midi,[5] for which he was criticised for being too friendly to the dictator.[citation needed]

That same year he joined Jacques Doriot's Parti populaire français (PPF).[6] (The most pro-German, pro-collaborationist political movement in France, which went on to actively fight on the German side later).

....

After the French defeat in 1940 Jouvenel stayed in Paris and under German occupation published Après la Défaite, calling for France to join Hitler's New Order. He fled to Switzerland just before the liberation of Paris by the Allies.

...

Later in his life, Jouvenel's views shifted back to the left. In 1960, he complained to Milton Friedman that the Mont Pelerin Society had "turned increasingly to a Manichaeism according to which the state can do no good and private enterprise can do no wrong."[8] He was sympathetic to the student protests of 1968 and critical of the Vietnam War.[9] He also expressed support for the Socialist François Mitterrand.[8]

Verified historical facts concerning an individual's political views, statements and actions are not an ad hominem if you are using him as a source of political theory. If I wanted to actually give an ad hominem I could have brought up the incestuous and adulterous affair he committed with his stepmother, but that's neither here nor there when it comes to de Jouvenel's politics, which to be blunt had nothing to do with localism or an organic social order and everything to do with the all-powerful State you claim that he decried. You're literally doing the equivalent of saying that calling Marx a Marxist is an ad hominem here.

So all you do by this is prove simply that you don't know what an ad hominem is.

I don't talk to dishonest actors. I'll be ignoring you from now on.

You're the one who's consistently been dishonest and disingenous in his entire posting history, then accused all his interlocutors of either being too stupid to understand him or debating in bad faith.

I mean I have far less problem with your political beliefs than your utter and complete sophism in "arguing" for them (which you don't really, all you do is make evidence-free assertions while occasionally saying things like "do you deny this?" as if what you're saying is utterly self-evident).
 
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Navarro

Well-known member
Whether or not it’s ideal from a moral perspective, having a recognised aristocracy under the law allows the law to have a higher standard of behaviour for them, for example requiring military service. There were also social moral constraints on their behaviour as a consequence of their recognition. The attempt to make society equal has in fact blatantly replaced a recognised aristocracy with an unrecognised one which has no such restraints on its conduct, as we see every day in the vile behaviour of the international globalist monied elite.

It is true that giving the elite a defined social status can work to control their behaviour, but the aristocrats of the Middle Ages were, to be blunt, too powerful to be really restrained in such a way, given that the Medieval kings functioned more as "firsts among equals" than real sovereigns. @Lord Sovereign did bring up the example of the British nobility of the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries, who were genuinely virtuous and did try to live up to the values they preached; but they were restrained far more by cultural and religious factors than by legal ones, which IMO are generally less powerful.

It's easier to do something that's *merely* against the law than the sort of thing that's Not Done, or that which would be sinful. One of the key problems with enshrining cultural or religious values into civil law, in fact, is that it works to debase them and turns them from an issue of morality into one of *mere* legality; and a law is always easier to break than a taboo.

The medieval aristocrats were also "globalist" in the sense than they had more in common with fellow aristocrats from across Europe than their fellow countrymen of lower social status - which again, is one of the problems with our current set of elites. So I don't see how going back to a defined aristocracy could then solve it.

In such a situation the predominant problem with the current elite classes isn't legal but cultural and religious; and a legislative solution doesn't really work for those problems.

Walt Disney certainly came from no aristocratic bloodline and possessed no special legal status, but he lived virtuously and was loyal to his country against its enemies both in WW2 and the Cold War because of the culture and religion in which he was brought up.

Despite how blatantly this equalism has failed, opening us to the rapacious tyranny of an unchecked, lustful elite which sells its own people for gold, equalists claim that the solution is more equalism—but we already know where that leads, a third kind of elite called the “apparatchiki” who will escalate their contempt for their countrymen by sending them to gulags by the job lot in the name of ideology.

I mean, the industrialists of the 19th and early 20th centuries were undoubtedly patriotic towards their countries and philanthropic towards the lower classes; but this was an issue, again, not of the law making them act in such a way but the culture and faith they were raised and inculcated in.

So, what, fundamentally is the problem? I personally would peg it as the great crisis that was the World Wars severely damaging cultural self-confidence and religiosity, not an "ideal of equalism mutating into one of communism". The Second World War really set back the recovery from the first, both in that it was an even more appalling bloodbath of atrocity, and that it allowed the Communists to associate cultural self-confidence with the toxic racial ideology which motivated the genocidal slaughters that took place during it (a racial ideology which actually came from them ultimately, too). This has generally had bad effects on all of society, not specifically the elite classes.

I mean, the current problems only date back to the mid-late 20th century - casting them as the inevitable result of the way things have been for the past two centuries is jumping the gun a bit!

The behaviour of Communist apparatchiks is again, a case of the elite having no cultural, legal or religious reason to behave in a virtuous way - which inevitably makes them run amok with their power.
 
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Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
So, what, fundamentally is the problem? I personally would peg it as the great crisis that was the World Wars severely damaging cultural self-confidence and religiosity, not an "ideal of equalism mutating into one of communism". The Second World War really set back the recovery from the first, both in that it was an even more appalling bloodbath of atrocity, and that it allowed the Communists to associate cultural self-confidence with the toxic racial ideology which motivated the genocidal slaughters that took place during it (a racial ideology which actually came from them ultimately, too). This has generally had bad effects on all of society, not specifically the elite classes.

I mean, the current problems only date back to the mid-late 20th century - casting them as the inevitable result of the way things have been for the past two centuries is jumping the gun a bit!

It's as if the cultural and ideological underpinnings of Europe and the Anglosphere were flattened by the Great German Sperg Out, a.k.a, World War II. To this day we are culturally and I'd say psychologically scarred by that event, and it has embedded itself as a near new foundation myth of the West. The morbid terror of "racism" and "nationalism" did not come from nowhere. Commies buggering about in academia made it a whole lot worse, but it was the example of a civilised European country totally embracing barbarism that kicked us in the cultural bollocks. Suddenly, it seemed as if any civilised country could do it. Thus, Nazism has become a near "original sin" for us, that we can never escape and can always succumb to unless we remain "virtuous" (immigrants welcome, social justice, diversity, etcetera. They are modern day flagellants).

The West has lost faith in itself, and is thus weak to persuasion, be it from internal radicals or external bad actors. These individuals are pretty much abusing a culture that is mentally unwell due to civilisational PTSD.

So, just to trot out an old and favourite saying of mine, thanks, Germany, what the actual fuck!? Jesus Christ, we should have just let Napoleon or the Hapsburgs rule you.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
It's as if the cultural and ideological underpinnings of Europe and the Anglosphere were flattened by the Great German Sperg Out, a.k.a, World War II. To this day we are culturally and I'd say psychologically scarred by that event, and it has embedded itself as a near new foundation myth of the West. The morbid terror of "racism" and "nationalism" did not come from nowhere..

The issue again is that whereas the Communists were honest about making a clean break from the past, the Nazis wrapped themselves up in ideals of patriotism and support for tradition ... which itself made those ideals toxic to an extent.

Commies buggering about in academia made it a whole lot worse, but it was the example of a civilised European country totally embracing barbarism that kicked us in the cultural bollocks. Suddenly, it seemed as if any civilised country could do it. Thus, Nazism has become a near "original sin" for us, that we can never escape and can always succumb to unless we remain "virtuous" (immigrants welcome, social justice, diversity, etcetera. They are modern day flagellants).

The thing about Nazism is that its form of barbarism was uniquely worse than previous ones in that it was a civilized barbarism ... which is what really distinguishes them from other groups. Any horde of savages can loot and rape a city, but it takes a civilized mind to round up all the inhabitants, place them in a labour camp, and systematically gas them once they're of no more use. Which in turn casts doubt on the whole of modern civilization.

The West has lost faith in itself, and is thus weak to persuasion, be it from internal radicals or external bad actors. These individuals are pretty much abusing a culture that is mentally unwell due to civilisational PTSD.

Indeed. The culture that produced the virtuous elites of the past was badly damaged, which allowed a new crop of un-virtuous elites to rise up in the 60s and 70s. If the current problems are a result of the French and American revolutions, why did they take until that time period to manifest?

So, just to trot out an old and favourite saying of mine, thanks, Germany, what the actual fuck!? Jesus Christ, we should have just let Napoleon or the Hapsburgs rule you.

I think having the Hapsburgs and their ethos balance out Prussia when Germany was formed would have prevented a lot of strife.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Eventually I’d want to develop genetic engineering tech to keep the peasantry in their state. They would be engineered for servility, submissiveness, and obedience. This would be heritable.

This is a kind of wickedness enacted in it the world which would be horrible to all righteous peoples. Morality held society in the Orders, which were and will always be equal before God. This is a savage vision of Nietzsche--a totalitarianism of the 20th century.
 

ATP

Well-known member
This is a kind of wickedness enacted in it the world which would be horrible to all righteous peoples. Morality held society in the Orders, which were and will always be equal before God. This is a savage vision of Nietzsche--a totalitarianism of the 20th century.
And in real medieval states, peasants had real chance to become gentry.Not good, but real - thanks to that, those who otherwise would become heads of peasant rebellion,try/and usually made it/ become gentry.
In Poland for example, such way practically stopped working after 1655.
 

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