Philosophy Why Individualism is False

Navarro

Well-known member
Social mobility, from what I've seen in modern society, is one of the things that's causing alienation and cultural disintegration and is a direct result of individualism's leveling effect.

Now, we see from an actual look at history that communism and proto-communism had its greatest success (Russia, France, et al) where there was a distinct lack of social mobility.

The old feudal orders had peasant revolts caused by famines, but the society didn't fall apart until the kings started centralizing all the power to create absolutist, proto-individualist states.

Feudal society collapsed when gunpowder meant that the aristocracy no longer had a monopoly on military force and the mounted knight along with the castle became militarily obsolete. I wonder if you're planning to turn that back somehow, because that's the only way you'll get your desired restoration of feudal society.

You claim that social mobility is able to appease people's envy, but I don't believe envy can be satisfied by anything.

Again, from an actual look at history we see that countries where there was a strong level of social mobility were able to fend off communist ideological attack better than countries where there wasn't (Russia, China, most of Latin America).

In the end, it's about what you value. I don't think us peasants should be living like lords, and you do.

Be the change you want to see in the world. Go live in a medieval hovel then, if that's what you think you "should" be doing. After all, peasants like you shouldn't be living like lords, am I right? I mean, the modern equivalent of "peasants" certainly don't live like modern "lords" - class structures always have existed, and always will - so your conclusion seems to be that what's wrong with society is all technological progress after approximately 1215. Because those technological advances - gunpowder, the printing press, et al - are what ended feudalism as a social structure. It was not a case of kings suddenly deciding to absolutise their domains, but advances in military technology drastically weakening the role of heavy cavalry (the upkeep of which was the starting point of the feudal system) and rendering the castles which represented the power base of the military aristocracy almost totally ineffective against artillery bombardment.

What I'm talking about is restoring a sense of sovereignty among the people. Instead of embracing the lie that we the people consented to have the people in charge be in charge or that the people in charge "deserve" to be in charge by virtue of their merit.

>Restore/create a sense of popular sovereignty.
>Do away with the idea that the people choose their rulers.

Pick one.

Also, literally all countries on Earth have claimed that their rulers deserved to be in charge by virtue of some form of merit, be it military, religious, hereditary or otherwise. Which is fairly obvious, since all rulers need to be seen as legitimate in order to rule.
 
Last edited:

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
Meritocracy means useful for the purposes of whoever is in charge. It also means that the elites in society have no sense of noblesse oblige, because they feel they've "earned it." I'll also add that which "measurable qualities" are considered merit-worthy is also dependent on what is in demand, no?

I'm not sure we'll be able to come to an agreement on the issue of social mobility. Social mobility, from what I've seen in modern society, is one of the things that's causing alienation and cultural disintegration and is a direct result of individualism's leveling effect. The old feudal orders had peasant revolts caused by famines, but the society didn't fall apart until the kings started centralizing all the power to create absolutist, proto-individualist states. You claim that social mobility is able to appease people's envy, but I don't believe envy can be satisfied by anything.

In the end, it's about what you value. I don't think us peasants should be living like lords, and you do. Medieval societies had ways of dealing with class envy that didn't involve the social mobility you are advocating for (assuming that social mobility ever really existed and wasn't just propaganda).

Alright, so!

Henry Ford, The Wright Brothers, John D. Rockefeller, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Sam Walden, and many, many more people that aren't as readily recognizeable by name. Social mobility isn't a myth, in America, it's a fact of life.

An enormous number of immigrants in the 19th century came to America, and went from low-class peasants to middle-class, or ensured that their children were able to become such. Last I checked, in modern life 17% of households will spend at least some time in the top 1% of the population for income. There are literally hundreds of thousands of millionaires in this country.

This would not have been possible under feudalism, or absolute monarchies.


What I'm talking about is restoring a sense of sovereignty among the people. Instead of embracing the lie that we the people consented to have the people in charge be in charge or that the people in charge "deserve" to be in charge by virtue of their merit.

All government happens by the consent of the people. If every single Chinese person decided one day that they were done with Xi, he'd be out immediately. If 60% of the people in the USA decided to vote for, say, Dave Rubin for president this year, he'd become the bloody President.

All governing requires some degree of consent. Sometimes that consent is pushed by fear. Sometimes it is pushed by an understanding of civic duty and agreement with the purpose the government has set itself to. It can vary greatly in between.

But when a group of people decide they will not be governed, and they are willing to face torture and death to resist the government that wants to rule them, then they cannot be governed.

Few are willing to make such a decision.

Navarro has covered most other points I was going to make fairly well.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
The assumption that aristocrats inherently have noblesse oblige is ridiculously wrong as well - in Europe that only happened due to Christianity, and even then imperfectly. Meanwhile in feudal Japan they were literally slaughtering passing peasants just to test the sharpness of their shiny new katanas ...
 

The Name of Love

Far Right Nutjob
Now, we see from an actual look at history that communism and proto-communism had its greatest success (Russia, France, et al) where there was a distinct lack of social mobility.

Please explain why communism didn't come about in the history of medieval feudalism, please?

Feudal society collapsed when gunpowder meant that the aristocracy no longer had a monopoly on military force and the mounted knight along with the castle became militarily obsolete. I wonder if you're planning to turn that back somehow, because that's the only way you'll get your desired restoration of feudal society.

There's so much wrong with what you just said, I don't even know where to begin.

First, I don't want to recreate feudalism. I'm a communitarian conservative in the vein of someone like Alastair MacIntyre.

Second, I doubt that the creation of gunpowder was THE factor. I think the rise of the modern state under centralizing monarchies is a much more salient factor. Noble power didn't decentralize during the rise of firearms, it centralized, and then was usurped by merchants.

Again, from an actual look at history we see that countries where there was a strong level of social mobility were able to fend off communist ideological attack better than countries where there wasn't (Russia, China, most of Latin America).

I've discussed this before. We see in these countries a kind of top-heaviness combined with a lack of economic prosperity. Monarchical absolutism is the revolutionary's best friend, as is anarchy and general lawlessness. This explains Russia and China; they are essentially what happens when you take an absolute monarchy and replace its king with the Communist Party. Latin America is just an extension of the general Socialist Third-Worldism. These countries are following the trend set by Che Guevara, using socialism as a way to promote nationalistic interests against capitalist globalism.

Most societies throughout history didn't have social mobility. That's sort of an American innovation, which it spread to other ocuntries later. If you were correct, then most countries around the world would've been socialist a long, long time ago.

Be the change you want to see in the world. Go live in a medieval hovel then, if that's what you think you "should" be doing. After all, peasants like you shouldn't be living like lords, am I right? I mean, the modern equivalent of "peasants" certainly don't live like modern "lords" - class structures always have existed, and always will - so your conclusion seems to be that what's wrong with society is all technological progress after approximately 1215. Because those technological advances - gunpowder, the printing press, et al - are what ended feudalism as a social structure. It was not a case of kings suddenly deciding to absolutise their domains, but advances in military technology drastically weakening the role of heavy cavalry (the upkeep of which was the starting point of the feudal system) and rendering the castles which represented the power base of the military aristocracy almost totally ineffective against artillery bombardment.

Oh you of little imagination. The more interesting question is this: would 1215 with iPods be better than 2020 with iPods? If not, why not? See, we aren't talking about technological advancement, we're talking about ideology and politics. Feudalism in the modern world would be very different from its thirteenth-century counterpart.

>Restore/create a sense of popular sovereignty.
>Do away with the idea that the people choose their rulers.

Pick one.

Also, literally all countries on Earth have claimed that their rulers deserved to be in charge by virtue of some form of merit, be it military, religious, hereditary or otherwise. Which is fairly obvious, since all rulers need to be seen as legitimate in order to rule.

Consent of the governed is actually a lie. What matters is recognition of the governed. You keep rulers accountable by having them actually be responsible for their mistakes, not by using self-deception to trick yourself into thinking that, somehow, you are the one in charge of your rulers (which is the entire problem with democracy, but this thread isn't about democracy).

Alright, so!

Henry Ford, The Wright Brothers, John D. Rockefeller, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Sam Walden, and many, many more people that aren't as readily recognizeable by name. Social mobility isn't a myth, in America, it's a fact of life.

An enormous number of immigrants in the 19th century came to America, and went from low-class peasants to middle-class, or ensured that their children were able to become such. Last I checked, in modern life 17% of households will spend at least some time in the top 1% of the population for income. There are literally hundreds of thousands of millionaires in this country.

This would not have been possible under feudalism, or absolute monarchies.

All very true facts. But so what? Why should I care?

All government happens by the consent of the people. If every single Chinese person decided one day that they were done with Xi, he'd be out immediately. If 60% of the people in the USA decided to vote for, say, Dave Rubin for president this year, he'd become the bloody President.

All governing requires some degree of consent. Sometimes that consent is pushed by fear. Sometimes it is pushed by an understanding of civic duty and agreement with the purpose the government has set itself to. It can vary greatly in between.

But when a group of people decide they will not be governed, and they are willing to face torture and death to resist the government that wants to rule them, then they cannot be governed.

Few are willing to make such a decision.

Navarro has covered most other points I was going to make fairly well.

Ask any libertarian or anarchist if he consented to being ruled by leader, and he'd say "like hell I did!" There's a great book by Michael Huemer called The Problem of Political Authority that deals with this. What you are talking about with Xi and Rubin examples isn't "consent of the governed," but "recognition of the governed." People can intellectually understand that the people in charge are in charge even if they don't consent to them or their laws.

The assumption that aristocrats inherently have noblesse oblige is ridiculously wrong as well - in Europe that only happened due to Christianity, and even then imperfectly. Meanwhile in feudal Japan they were literally slaughtering passing peasants just to test the sharpness of their shiny new katanas ...
Given how highly regarded peasants were in Japan due to providing food for the samurais and daimyos, I highly doubt that your characterization of feudal Japan is accurate.

In any case, what I'm calling for is a return to a hierarchical, communitarian society with class collaboration based on the ideals of Catholic Social Teaching and Solidarism. Not some kind of return to feudalism. I mean, even if I wanted to recreate the aristocracy, who would be the worthy aristocrats?
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
Ask any libertarian or anarchist if he consented to being ruled by leader, and he'd say "like hell I did!" There's a great book by Michael Huemer called The Problem of Political Authority that deals with this. What you are talking about with Xi and Rubin examples isn't "consent of the governed," but "recognition of the governed." People can intellectually understand that the people in charge are in charge even if they don't consent to them or their laws.


Given how highly regarded peasants were in Japan due to providing food for the samurais and daimyos, I highly doubt that your characterization of feudal Japan is accurate.

In any case, what I'm calling for is a return to a hierarchical, communitarian society with class collaboration based on the ideals of Catholic Social Teaching and Solidarism. Not some kind of return to feudalism. I mean, even if I wanted to recreate the aristocracy, who would be the worthy aristocrats?

A Libertarian might claim he's not giving his consent, but when he does not refuse to follow laws, he is in fact consenting. I do not agree with the mask edict in Michigan, but I follow it when going into businesses because I do not want to cause trouble for them, and in this I consent to follow rules with which I do not agree.

Your 'recognition of the governed' is playing word games.


Your conception of the life of Japanese peasantry is one of the most distant from reality statements I have ever seen. Congratulations.

Regarding the 'hierarchical, communitarian society' derived from Catholic social teaching, would you care to give an example of when this existed so that we can 'return' to it?
 

Navarro

Well-known member
Your conception of the life of Japanese peasantry is one of the most distant from reality statements I have ever seen. Congratulations.

While Samurai killing peasants to test their swords was technically a crime (which wasn't enforced until the Edo period) it was still so common that a word was developed just to describe the practice. A Samurai could legally kill any non-Samurai on the spot if he believed he had been disrespected, and in at least one case this was stretched to justify the extermination of a whole family.
 

The Name of Love

Far Right Nutjob
A Libertarian might claim he's not giving his consent, but when he does not refuse to follow laws, he is in fact consenting. I do not agree with the mask edict in Michigan, but I follow it when going into businesses because I do not want to cause trouble for them, and in this I consent to follow rules with which I do not agree.
Tacit consent is covered in the book too. The actions of the state make it impossible to tacitly refuse the laws of the state. Compulsory schooling, for instance.

Your 'recognition of the governed' is playing word games.
That's not an argument. There's clearly a difference between intellectually recognizing some group has authority over you and consenting to that authority. A thief may not consent to laws against theft, but he knows they exist and who enforces them.

Your conception of the life of Japanese peasantry is one of the most distant from reality statements I have ever seen. Congratulations.
From what I read, peasants were the highest ranking of the non-nobles. The lowest were the merchant class. What I'm curious about is where you got this idea that Japanese samurai would just cut down peasants willy-nilly. Could you provide some reading material? I'd be interested in learning.

Regarding the 'hierarchical, communitarian society' derived from Catholic social teaching, would you care to give an example of when this existed so that we can 'return' to it?

I consider all premodern societies were communitarian and hierarchical insofar as they lacked the levelling and atomizing effects of modernity. However, we cannot expect such a society, were it to be created now, to have the properties of feudalism (such as serfdom or the guild system). It'd be something completely new that hasn't been tried before, so caution would be warranted. As someone who is decidedly not a revolutionary, I would say that some amount of experimentation would have to take place to get it right. This is why I advocate for more decentralized government control - not because I'm for "limited government" as an ideal, but because I think people should try setting up societies that can work better than what we currently have.

While Samurai killing peasants to test their swords was technically a crime (which wasn't enforced until the Edo period) it was still so common that a word was developed just to describe the practice. A Samurai could legally kill any non-Samurai on the spot if he believed he had been disrespected, and in at least one case this was stretched to justify the extermination of a whole family.
That's pretty much a feature of every society's privileged classes. The modern equivalent of this would be anti-discrimination laws and hate speech laws. Societies that didn't have some kind of privileged class like this were bizarre anomalies in world history. This is hardly the same as "samurai could just kill peasants in order to practice his swordsmanship."
 

Navarro

Well-known member
That's pretty much a feature of every society's privileged classes. The modern equivalent of this would be anti-discrimination laws and hate speech laws. Societies that didn't have some kind of privileged class like this were bizarre anomalies in world history. This is hardly the same as "samurai could just kill peasants in order to practice his swordsmanship."

Not many privileged classes literally had an enshrined right to do things like this for centuries:

A popular incident tells how a commoner bumped into Saiheiji Tomo, treasurer of the Owari-Tokugawa family, and ignored him further when Tomo demanded him to apologize. Feeling merciful, the samurai offered the peasant his wakizashi so he had a chance to defend himself, but instead, the commoner decided to run away with his wakizashi, causing further dishonor. The incident resulted in Tomo being disowned from the Owari-Tokugawa clan. He later regained his honor by seeking out the commoner, collecting the wakizashi and killing the whole family.

I wonder if you would be fine with such incidents being commonplace in your neo-hierarchical society, or if you would humbly expose your neck to the slicing blade of the passing noblemen. After all, you yourself said that "us peasants shouldn't live like lords".

And the killing of peasants just to test swords was indeed a phenomenon, though an illegal one -not that this mattered, since:

A. Contrary to your claims in other threads, making something illegal does not make it unthinkable or physically impossible.
B. The authorities (until the Edo period) did not care about enforcing the laws against tsugijjiri, since the victims were "worthless" peasants and merchants.
 
Last edited:

Hlaalu Agent

Nerevar going to let you down
Founder
Not many privileged classes literally had an enshrined right to do things like this for centuries:



I wonder if you would be fine with such incidents being commonplace in your neo-hierarchical society, or if you would humbly expose your neck to the slicing blade of the passing noblemen. After all, you yourself said that "us peasants shouldn't live like lords".

This is why I think the classical writers have much to teach us, one we might try to have a diverse or more than one ruling class sharing power (or share power between the classes as much as possible) and two prevent hybris from settling in to the ruling class, make it actionable that acting "arrogantly" (in the old sense) towards the people is considered "impious" by society and actionable. Probably the only way that we can get society working under any conception is if certain codes regulate how the powerful treat the weak.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
This is why I think the classical writers have much to teach us, one we might try to have a diverse or more than one ruling class sharing power (or share power between the classes as much as possible)

No, we just need a neo-feudal class of tech oligarchs. Never mind that they're at best indifferent to Christianity, have no concern for national loyalties, etc. - what matters is they're unquestionably in charge, and they make sure to let you know it!

and two prevent hybris from settling in to the ruling class, make it actionable that acting "arrogantly" (in the old sense) towards the people is considered "impious" by society and actionable.

No, you see, the ruling class can't be hubristic, they're the rulers after all! It's perfectly acceptable for them to murder passers-by if they feel said individuals didn't grovel sufficiently on encountering them, that's just how the world works. Worse, imagine if they had to earn their position instead of being born into it, and might remember what being one of the people on the bottom was like. Just think how insufferable they would be then!
 

The Name of Love

Far Right Nutjob
Not many privileged classes literally had an enshrined right to do things like this for centuries:



I wonder if you would be fine with such incidents being commonplace in your neo-hierarchical society, or if you would humbly expose your neck to the slicing blade of the passing noblemen. After all, you yourself said that "us peasants shouldn't live like lords".

And the killing of peasants just to test swords was indeed a phenomenon, though an illegal one -not that this mattered, since:

A. Contrary to your claims in other threads, making something illegal does not make it unthinkable or physically impossible.
B. The authorities (until the Edo period) did not care about enforcing the laws against tsugijjiri, since the victims were "worthless" peasants and merchants.
Yeah, I'm still not convinced you're right on this. And you fail to realize: all of the problems we have today can be blamed on how we went away from this kind of society. The problems I pointed out with individualism are real, even if my positive solution to them has flaws. Or do you deny this?
 
Yeah, I'm still not convinced you're right on this. And you fail to realize: all of the problems we have today can be blamed on how we went away from this kind of society. The problems I pointed out with individualism are real, even if my positive solution to them has flaws. Or do you deny this?


your not going to get a utopia kid, yes individualism has some flaws, but they are no worse than the issues your idea society faced back then. If you are not convinced of these problems many have brought to you, then I'd argue look no futher than the writings of the apostles/saints the fact that Paul in his letters had to tell people the likes of "Stop being murderers" (paraphrasing mind you) should be pretty telling. Duels and killings were very much a thing. Probably not as common as it is portrayed in hollywood but it was very much a thing. And that's with populations that are much MUCH smaller than modern societies today.

At best your trading one devil for another. I would say you seem the kind of guy that would rather deal with the devil you know, but frankly I'm not convinced you know it as well as you think you do. What's more likely is that your letting that same devil in just wearing a different skin.

I get it. things are scary right now but it really isn't anything that hasn't occurred in times past in fact it's actually milder. It's a specific group of people being encouraged and provoked by a very specific organization, and said orginization is trying to convince you every minute of everyday that the sky is falling. What makes things seem so bad is that this is the first time WE as a genration have witnessed it,and when you witness something going on the first time, you tend to think it's the worse it has ever been. Then it passes and pops up again in another century or two. We'll get through this. It won't be a bed of roses, but we'll get through it.
 
Last edited:

The Name of Love

Far Right Nutjob
your not going to get a utopia kid, yes individualism has some flaws, but they are no worse than the issues your idea society faced back then. If you are not convinced of these problems many have brought to you, then I'd argue look no futher than the writings of the apostles/saints the fact that Paul in his letters had to tell people the likes of "Stop being murderers" (paraphrasing mind you) should be pretty telling. Duels and killings were very much a thing. Probably not as common as it is portrayed in hollywood but it was very much a thing. And that's with populations that are much MUCH smaller than modern societies today.

At best your trading one devil for another. I would say you seem the kind of guy that would rather deal with the devil you know, but frankly I'm not convinced you know it as well as you think you do. What's more likely is that your letting that same devil in just wearing a different skin.

I get it. things are scary right now but it really isn't anything that hasn't occurred in times past in fact it's actually milder. It's a specific group of people being encouraged and provoked by a very specific organization, and said orginization is trying to convince you every minute of everyday that the sky is falling. What makes things seem so bad is that this is the first time WE as a genration have witnessed it,and when you witness something going on the first time, you tend to think it's the worse it has ever been. Then it passes and pops up again in another century or two. We'll get through this. It won't be a bed of roses, but we'll get through it.

I don't appreciate you talking down to me like I'm some child, Hastur. As far as you know, we're the same age. Nor did I ever imply that the modern day doesn't have its good points. Nor did I ever express a desire for utopia. So your "advice" doesn't really do much. It just comes across as pretentious.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
Oh you of little imagination. The more interesting question is this: would 1215 with iPods be better than 2020 with iPods? If not, why not? See, we aren't talking about technological advancement, we're talking about ideology and politics

Technological advancement inherently shapes (and is shaped by) ideology and politics, so this is incoherent. "The world of 1215, but with iPods" is a contradiction in terms. The world of 1215 could not support iPods or their technological requirements (electricity, the internet, plastics, silicon circuitry, etc.) without radical shifts in its ideology and politics, unless it were reliant on imports from outside. Which would make it dependent on those imports, and hence on a world which was not that of 1215.


Well, I have no doubt that whatever form of interstellar government may arise probably will be feudal or similarly decentralised in structure, owing to the difficulty of transport and communication across such vast distances. But on the shorter-run timeframe, what we are more likely to see if the "tech overlords" win is something similar to the rule of the Chinese Mandarins.

Also, why do you seem to view these developments favourably? If you think the "tech overlords", given governmental authority, would be favourably disposed towards traditionalist Catholicism - or conservative Christianity in general - I have a bridge in New York City and an acre of swampland in Florida to sell you. Unless it doesn't matter to you that the lords are Christian or even moral in a more basic, "virtuous pagan"-style sense, save that they are lords?

Yeah, I'm still not convinced you're right on this.

"My own intuitions on what Soviet Russia feudal Japan must have been like according to my ideological beliefs trump actual historical reports from Soviet Russia feudal Japan!"

And you avoided my question - would you bare your neck to the sword so that the nobleman's status in society over you might be affirmed? Are you willing to put your money where your mouth is, to live and die according to your conviction that "peasants shouldn't live like lords"?

Second, I doubt that the creation of gunpowder was THE factor. I think the rise of the modern state under centralizing monarchies is a much more salient factor. Noble power didn't decentralize during the rise of firearms, it centralized, and then was usurped by merchants.

Which is why even in countries which didn't go through a period of absolute monarchy like England and the Netherlands, the merchant classes still took the reins of political power? Feudalism rose in a context where the West Roman urban civilisation had collapsed, and heavy cavalry (which required a great deal of land to support) was becoming the major factor in warfare due to technical developments (the selective breeding of far stronger warhorses, and the stirrup).

When the context for these ended (that is, when bureaucratic structures and professional armies similar to those of Rome were redeveloped, along with new military innovations that weakened the dominant position of the heavy cavalryman), feudalism ended and political power returned from the castles back to the cities (where it had been in Classical times, and never really left in areas where the Roman Empire never underwent wholesale civilisational collapse), which had become the domain of the merchant class (and so they eventually ended up holding the reins).

One should note that it's not even the merchant class who took sole power in the early modern period, but a coalition of them, the urban aristocracy, and the lower-ranking rural aristocracy. And that in certain cases the line between the burghers and the aristocracy was blurred - one can think of the ruling class of La Serenissima, or the House of Medici, who lived lavish lifestyles and possessed great political might but whose wealth and power came from trade and banking respectively (and it's ironic that you extoll the feudal aristocracy while also deploring rent as a source of income (to the point you said all accumulation of wealth not based directly on physical labour was immoral, including an author wanting to earn money from a book he was trying to get published), given that the entire economic basis of the feudal ruling class was rent-as-labour provided by serf-tenants, which is where the modern term "land-lord" comes from ).

Let it not be said that the feudal aristocracy was wholly a source of negativity for the countries where they held power - they were generally good leaders, provided the backbone of Europe's military might in an age where it faced continuous threat of invasion from the north, east and south, and produced a decent sampling of genuinely noble individuals. But they were far from the eidolons of pure and just rule subject to foul betrayal from scheming kings and burghers that you present them as.

And it's not as if the absolutising monarchs were wholly unjustified in taking power from the feudal aristocracy in the manner that you present them as being, given the constant trouble they caused for them and their realms.

The assumption that aristocrats inherently have noblesse oblige is ridiculously wrong as well - in Europe that only happened due to Christianity, and even then imperfectly. Meanwhile in feudal Japan they were literally slaughtering passing peasants just to test the sharpness of their shiny new katanas ...

It's worth noting that the idea that "self-made-men" inherently have no sense of noblesse oblige also isn't borne out by actual history. Namely the philanthropic endeavours of the "rags-to-riches" tycoons of the 19th century, or the behaviour of the "dollar-a-year men" of America's early 20th century wars.
 
Last edited:

Morphic Tide

Well-known member
Please explain why communism didn't come about in the history of medieval feudalism, please?
Two reasons: It actually did in many respects, as the peasant villages met most qualifiers for communism internally since that's actually really effective for their socioeconomic context and the nobles gave no fucks about the details of how their food and cloths were made, and the ideology of revolutionary communism didn't exist in medieval times so those who revolted couldn't have any presupposition of doing it to establish big-C Communist rule.

There's also the matter that all the "Communist" dictatorships stem from the "Dictatorship of the Proletariat" transitory socialism described by Marx, being the co-opting of the path to "real" Communism. Which takes the logistical needs of even the most rudimentary industrialization and promptly sets them on fire by abandoning formal hierarchy altogether.

Edit: Meritocratic individualism does away with centralized hierarchy, in the sense of there being one cohesive class system for the broad structure of society. It replaces the class-based hierarchies of pre-industrial societies with topical hierarchies that largely grew out of the guild system, in the form of corporations. You still have a boss as absolutely as any King would be, but you can get a different job with a different boss.

And each corporation is a hierarchy unto itself, constructed specifically for the needs of a given business. This is where the logistical issues get dealt with, because every single problem has several people who's livelyhood is the obsessive search for solutions to specifically that problem. Decentralizing the hierarchies from a single societal class structure to the specialized corporations means that the countless intricacies of modern economics all have specialists dedicated to handling them, with nearly zero interference from the uninformed.

It's extremely vulnerable to disruption because every step assumes the next and previous are safely solved, but its efficiency is so absurdly huge that the main reason starvation's an issue anywhere is because we haven't finished pulling places out of the holes of your "harmonious" societies. The food to overfeed the entire existent human population exists, but it isn't viable to transport it where people are still starving.

Partly because of asshole dictators getting in the way, partly because all the charities just give handouts instead of setting up local infrastructure, mostly because de-colonization was just "You're now a country" without any efforts to move away from the mercantilist policies first so they actually had independently functional economies.
 
Last edited:

Navarro

Well-known member
It's extremely vulnerable to disruption because every step assumes the next and previous are safely solved, but its efficiency is so absurdly huge that the main reason starvation's an issue anywhere is because we haven't finished pulling places out of the holes of your "harmonious" societies. The food to overfeed the entire existent human population exists, but it isn't viable to transport it where people are still starving.

Medieval society also wasn't particularly harmonious. Even ignoring peasant revolts, you had squabbles between the Holy Roman Emperor and the Pope, nobles rebelling and intriguing to make themselves king, nobles fighting private wars against each other (both within and outside the realm), kings fighting wars over disputed territories and dynastic claims ...
 
Last edited:

Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
Two reasons: It actually did in many respects, as the peasant villages met most qualifiers for communism internally since that's actually really effective for their socioeconomic context and the nobles gave no fucks about the details of how their food and cloths were made, and the ideology of revolutionary communism didn't exist in medieval times so those who revolted couldn't have any presupposition of doing it to establish big-C Communist rule.

Also, in at least some parts of Europe, a peasant was not allowed to leave his village and go live somewhere else without the permission of his lord.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
Also, in at least some parts of Europe, a peasant was not allowed to leave his village and go live somewhere else without the permission of his lord.

So our dear friend here wants to be legally banned from leaving his home town?
 
Last edited:

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
I don't appreciate you talking down to me like I'm some child,

Your argumentation thus far, is to assert things, and use appeal-to-authority arguments. If you continue in this pattern, you can expect to be talked down to a lot, because your arguments are, quite frankly, terrible. Even children can make more effective 'appeal to emotion' arguments, but your usual fare doesn't even rise to that level.

You habitually refuse to accept any evidence that doesn't fit your preconcieved notions, and you constantly try to define terms and language in ways that will make you win by default.

The best conclusion I can come to, is that you are the ideological footsoldier of tyrants. If you're lucky, you'll rise up through the ranks, and be a Bishop or Inquisitor for whatever ideological movement you end up being useful to, but one thing I can say for sure, is that nothing I've seen you arguing for will be of any benefit to people's souls, health, or prosperity. Excepting the prosperity of tyrants.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top