Why fantasy avoids gunpowder?

I think part of it is the time period most fantasy takes place in. Some sword and sorcery will take place in a period best described as "Between the time the ocean's drank Atlantis and the rise of the Sons of Ares."

The other time period is just after the fall of the Western Roman Empire and the end of the 12th Century Anno Dominai. There was little if any use of gunpowder in these time frames. So it really isn't on the minds of Fantasy writers. However, there is the paradox of having plate and full plate around even though those are late Middle Ages creations. Unless it is Roman plate armor.
 
I think part of it is the time period most fantasy takes place in. Some sword and sorcery will take place in a period best described as "Between the time the ocean's drank Atlantis and the rise of the Sons of Ares."

The other time period is just after the fall of the Western Roman Empire and the end of the 12th Century Anno Dominai. There was little if any use of gunpowder in these time frames. So it really isn't on the minds of Fantasy writers. However, there is the paradox of having plate and full plate around even though those are late Middle Ages creations. Unless it is Roman plate armor.
The funny thing about plate armor is that it evolved thanks to the introduction of crossbows if I remember right. Mail armor simply didn't work against the bolts so armorers eventually developed plate mail and later full plate armors. This had the lovely addition of making the wearer defacto immune to most conventional bows. If there are crossbows, then plate armor is going to be either in the setting or on its way soon. Another indication of plate armor being around are maces, flails, war hammers, and two-handed swords like the Landsknecht's Zweihänder, for these were developed in part to counter plate armor (usually though either the ice-pick method of can opening or through sheer kinetic energy transference, i.e. bashing someone so hard that they ring like a bell)...
 
There's also few relatively minor fantasy gimmicks that could have nasty impacts on the viability of early firearms in fantasy.
For example, there's the case of silk vests being used against not so early black powder firearms...
What if in fantasy world they have cheaper, more common equivalents, or even better stuff? For example giant spiders are a staple of fantasy...
In fact spider silk is currently being researched as a new body armor material, the obvious problem being getting enough of the stuff to make even one vest.
However this could be another matter for a civilization that has cow sized spiders sticking around since forever as oversized and dangerous pests that occasionally eat adventurers after trapping them into their massive webs.
Same goes for all sorts of leathers and scales of unusually tough beasts, enchanted materials, exotic fiber plants and so on, all of this, if common enough, could pose a real problem for the adoption of early firearms, making them ineffective even where a good crossbow bolt would work (even some light modern body armor fails against those).

Another problem that is extremely nasty to the earliest and cheapest black powder firearms in particular is water magic. Not a good weapon to have your army rely on when some novice caster can just make it pour all over the place and generally splash water around in various quick and effective ways at range, even as a side effect of basic combat spells. That would really discourage use of smaller, hard to cover guns, at least until more reliable, covered mechanisms, or better yet, cartridges become a thing, but then we're well outside of the medieval era.
 
The funny thing about plate armor is that it evolved thanks to the introduction of crossbows if I remember right.

It’s actually the inverse of this. Absent the proliferation of plate defenses, specifically the brigandine or coat of plates, the cross bow remains a hunting tool and something to equip low skilled urban militias who won’t spend the time to master the selfbow. The heavy military crossbow with the hardened pile-headed bolt is a response to increasing armor protection, like the flanged mace, polaxe, and halberd.

Remember that Romans were using plate defenses in the age of thrown javelins and mild steel weapons. As soon as European steel production recovered enough to make affordable plates along with wire, plates were being integrated into the panoplies of men at arms. First as elbows and knees and shoulders, then in as coats of small plates riveted between fabric layers front and back.
 
I remember a miniatures game waaay back when that was basically fantasy napoleonics. Flintloque I think it was called. The Brit standins were Orcs, the Prussian standin were Dorfs, the French Standins were Elves etc etc.

Still available from Alternative Armies!

 
I think a major part of it is historical illiteracy, most people think guns just sprouted out of nowhere in the 19th century.
I have to disagree, most folks think of firearms as being a major thing starting with the 18th century at latest, after all, everyone knows the American Revolution was fought with flintlocks and the like, and pirates, which were predominately a late 17th / early 18th century thing, also ironically use cannon and flintlock pistols.

It's more that most folks think firearms basically appeared in the 17th century, which is kinda true if you consider "flintlocks" to be the birth of firearms... which in fairness they kinda were? There's a huge difference between Flintlocks and Matchlocks and Wheellocks, which are what firearms prior to Flintlocks were. There's a reason Flintlocks completely overshadowed those earlier designs and were in use for about two centuries they were much more reliable and effective, and the style that superseded them, the Caplock (using percussion caps) is very much a direct evolution OF the flintlock (to the point where there were kits to upgrade a flintlock to a caplock made as the technology matured).

Most people, if you pressed them, likely couldn't identify firearms prior to flintlocks. To most people those are the "first firearms" they think of, not knowing the prior styles.
 
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I have to disagree, most folks think of firearms as being a major thing starting with the 18th century at latest, after all, everyone knows the American Revolution was fought with flintlocks and the like, and pirates, which were predominately a late 17th / early 18th century thing, also ironically use cannon and flintlock pistols.
counterpoint: much modern fantasy is based directly or indirectly on D&D, which has such historical illiteracy and studded leather.
 
I have to disagree, most folks think of firearms as being a major thing starting with the 18th century at latest, after all, everyone knows the American Revolution was fought with flintlocks and the like, and pirates, which were predominately a late 17th / early 18th century thing, also ironically use cannon and flintlock pistols.

It's more that most folks think firearms basically appeared in the 17th century, which is kinda true if you consider "flintlocks" to be the birth of firearms... which in fairness they kinda were? There's a huge difference between Flintlocks and Matchlocks and Wheellocks, which are what firearms prior to Flintlocks were. There's a reason Flintlocks completely overshadowed those earlier designs and were in use for about two centuries they were much more reliable and effective, and the style that superseded them, the Caplock (using percussion caps) is very much a direct evolution OF the flintlock (to the point where there were kits to upgrade a flintlock to a caplock made as the technology matured).

Most people, if you pressed them, likely couldn't identify firearms prior to flintlocks. To most people those are the "first firearms" they think of, not knowing the prior styles.
Umm, why did my alerts say this post was quoting me? Sorry if this is off topic, I just saw it now in my alerts.
 
I would probably say most people's conceptions, and balancing of the setting certainly, falls into two catagories:

1) Pre gun powder, where spear, armor, bow, horse, knight, and sword all play off each other and have something of a balance, and you can have interesting different "nations" with distinct weaponry and combat styles: Romans famous for heavy infantry, Franks famous for their cavalry, English famous for their archers, excetera. These balances are all immediately understandable to the reader, and while there were big changes between the pre-historical Siege of Troy and Angincort, all of those battles are at least comprehendible within a certain dynamic.

2) Everyone has guns who are basically all effectively the same, and everything more or less comes down to the guns. Cavalry and pikes may exist, but it comes down to guns. This is more or less true 17th century onward: yes, the british and French used different muskets, but are they different in any way that's going to show up in the story?

Now, there is a 600 ish year gap between about the 1200s and the 1600s, at least in Europe, where everything wasn't just about the guns, but, well, those dynamics are harder to explain, certainly outside of getting a bit wanky. Like, bows and guns were both used in China and the east for a very long time. Presenting why that was the case however is difficult to really pull off. You also lose some of the neeter rock paper sizzors aspect that you could get with ancient armies, at least conceptually, and so many more questions become "well, it depends".

Is heavy infantry useful? Well, maybe. Early ones could be pistol proofed, some arquebus were surprisingly light projectiles. And pre trigger, they could be hard to aim anyways. But its not an early rule of thumb like heavy infantry will generally beat light infantry if it comes to a press. And, well, knowedge of future capacity is going to draw questions of how limited the capacity is of an existing weapon. We know muskets can shoot out to a 100-200 meters with accuracy. Why isn't this happening regularly?

And on equipment, what's the comparative equipment worth of 100 swords vs 100 guns? Why haven't guns taken over everything already?

More or less, anything set between that 1200s-1500s period where gunpowder exists, but isn't the be all end all of combat, does not have nearly as well established structures and tropes to deal with. One can make generalities about a pre-gunpowder battlefield. One can make a generality of a post gunpowder battlefield. Its very hard to say anything concrete about a midway gunpowder battlefield. Especially without any particularly famous or evocative stories/sense of the time: like, WWI is also something of a between times war, or many of those wars in the 1850s-1920s wars, where your sorta in between pre industrial and post industrial wars.

We have a couple of famous wars that give us a sense of what wars in that period could be like though: the American Civil war gives a certain flavor of almost industrial war, WWI of course provides another, and near the end you've got at a stretch some of the inter-war conflicts such as Japan in China were almost everything modern is there, some tanks are available, but there's just short of enough industrialization at play that horses and bayonet charges are still central concerns of military tactics and logistics.

We lack such examples to really inform low gumpowder settings. Pike and shot gets close, but even there that seems very gun dominated, and is just at the very dawn of the age of gunpowder dominance, rather than pre it.
 
I agree that gunpowder eventually takes over and seems to reduce some of the diversity of combat. I would disagree, though, that there aren’t good tropes for the transition into gun dominance. We have 30 Years War, which most people would more likely recognize as the Three Musketeers era. Anything in the Renaissance is that period, in fact the full plate most people associate with knights coexisted with guns and was resistant if not immune to bullets. We have Conquistadors in the New World fighting the natives. Pirates are in that category too. Even into the 19th century some European nations had Cuirassiers who wore breastplates and charged at the enemy with sabres or lances.
 
We lack such examples to really inform low gumpowder settings. Pike and shot gets close, but even there that seems very gun dominated, and is just at the very dawn of the age of gunpowder dominance, rather than pre it.

Ottoman-Hungarian wars are an excellent example of a low-gunpowder setting, and even the Hundred Years war to an extent. But as pointed out here, infantry gunpowder weapons in 15th century had almost exclusively psychological impact - and most writers do not understand psychology.
 
Ottoman-Hungarian wars are an excellent example of a low-gunpowder setting, and even the Hundred Years war to an extent. But as pointed out here, infantry gunpowder weapons in 15th century had almost exclusively psychological impact - and most writers do not understand psychology.
And then there is the fact that the boom and smoke of it may have been scary for medieval soldiers not used to the stuff...
But would it work as well in a setting where even low level casters can cast firebolts, magic missiles or lightning bolts, and any serious battlefield has big magic artillery attacks thrown around by the army commander and/or his attending mages?
 
Becouse gunpowder meant that everybody after two week training could kill hero/dragon.Fantasy is about heroic/tragic deeds,which are no longer needed in gunpowder world.


There's an old poem, which I don't remember exactly. But it goes something like:

God made some men tall and some men short.
Some men strong and some men weak.
Some men fast and some men slow.
And then Samuel Colt made all men equal.


But as others have said - lots of writers simply lack imagination. Why not have dragons with bulletproof hides?
How about a story where the hero kills the dread ancient superdragon of whatever by taunting it from cover, and the dragon mocks him back... whereupon he jumps out and fires a Davy Crockett right into the monster's open mouth!
 
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counterpoint: much modern fantasy is based directly or indirectly on D&D, which has such historical illiteracy and studded leather.
Counter counterpoint: DnD follows a universe where armor got a giant ass boost to keep up with the damage output.
 
Counter counterpoint: DnD follows a universe where armor got a giant ass boost to keep up with the damage output.
And even then it doesn't keep up past the first few levels, armor becomes increasingly useless as you get stronger in the game.



So thinking on this, I've been looking at Hwachas and I think in a common fantasy world they'd stay relevant much, much longer (not that they didn't last a heck of a long time IRL), and probably similar weapons would spread to the rest of the world. We don't see much of them because they weren't used in Europe so not on the radar of western writers, and the Japanese are likely disinclined to include a Korean weapon in their fantasy works.


However looking at it's operation, a Hwacha (slightly modified to have a higher firing-angle) is ideal for anti-air work as well as hitting packed ground forces. They're among the lightest and most maneuverable of siege engines and designed to hit a wide area with hundreds of arrows or incendiary rockets at once. IRL they fell out of disfavor because cannon could punch through heavier fortifications that a Hwacha would just inflict cosmetic damage on, and the fact that they could be aimed quickly wasn't that valuable since an army a kilometer away wasn't going to be maneuvering like the Roadrunner.

Specifically I see it as a counter to swarms of harpies, Ittan-momen, pegasi cavalry, or the like. Anti-air would need to be much stronger in such a world but I don't see harpies wearing full plate as they try to swarm a defensive position, while I do see trying to hit a harpy with a cannon as a losing proposition. Might not pierce a dragon's scales but 100 steel-tipped rockets probably won't do it's wing membranes any good.
 

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