What if the French adopted a 7mm SLR before WW1?

sillygoose

Well-known member

Edit:


IOTL the French developed and adopted a semi-automatic rifle in 1910, but couldn't settle on the ammo specifics, so didn't ultimately work that out until it was too late and WW1 prevented it from ever seeing significant service. What if they had figured out the ammo specs at the same time as the rifle design so they had it in widespread service as of 1914? How might it impact the battles of 1914, WW1 overall, and how might other armies respond? As this time the British had their own 7mm design that was stopped by the war:
It however was a bolt action.

The semi-automatic feature would make it the best rifle in service in the world at the time, a WW1 Garand, so how might it influence development post-war? Seeing as long recoil rifles have otherwise never been adopted by a military, could it be viewed as a dead end and replaced? Might we see everyone adopting a 7mm cartridge after WW1 and how might that impact designs for WW2?

I have a bunch of thoughts, but want to hear what the community thinks first.
 
Last edited:
No major change. It is artillery and machineguns which do the killing.
Nevertheless it shows how the French were in the forefront of military tech development.
Chapeux bas!
 
  • Like
Reactions: ATP
No major change. It is artillery and machineguns which do the killing.
Nevertheless it shows how the French were in the forefront of military tech development.
Chapeux bas!
In 1914 machine guns were crew served and semi-auto pretty much doubles or triples the maximum rate of fire when compared to something manually cycled like a bolt-action rifle.
 
Biggest change would be, IMO, the new cartridge. The 8mm Lebel was rather unsuited for automatic fire(rimmed cartridge, bottleneck angles made automated feeding and extraction complicated). A newer cartridge may lead to a better machine gun earlier than the post-war Chatellerault.
 
The Lebel was fine for strips/semi-rigid belt feed.
Problems were with spring loaded box magazines.
 
No major change. It is artillery and machineguns which do the killing.
Nevertheless it shows how the French were in the forefront of military tech development.
Chapeux bas!
From when I looked up casualty stats it was in 1916 that artillery overtook small arms in terms of casualty infliction. In more mobile fighting it is more mobile weapons that do the majority of killing/wounding. MGs of course are more effective at that, but they were not all that common until 1916 as well and so heavy that they were more defensive weapons than offensive. So having more effective rifles and a 10-15 round internal magazine would be pretty important in 1914 and '15 before fire and movement tactics because standard.

Having a lighter, lower recoiling, more long range cartridge in service before the war would give the French a pretty important advantage as well, much like how the Spanish 7mm Mausers made them much more effective in the Spanish-American war than the US forces. That and all the above making MGs easier to make lighter and more efficient. Can you imagine how much better the Chauchat would have been without rimmed cartridges and the brutal recoil of the 8mm Lebel? Actually come to think of it the Chauchat might have been a pretty darn decent auto-rifle with better ammo.

In 1914 machine guns were crew served and semi-auto pretty much doubles or triples the maximum rate of fire when compared to something manually cycled like a bolt-action rifle.
Indeed and given the tactics of the day the high rate of fire and lower recoil, plus ability to carry more ammo would have been a massive advantage.

Biggest change would be, IMO, the new cartridge. The 8mm Lebel was rather unsuited for automatic fire(rimmed cartridge, bottleneck angles made automated feeding and extraction complicated). A newer cartridge may lead to a better machine gun earlier than the post-war Chatellerault.
Indeed, the Chauchat would be highly interesting with a 7mm Mauser-like cartridge. In fact it might have been available in 1914 without having to design around the 8mm Lebel, since development started in 1903 and took until 1914 to get into first production. Having box magazines, like the .30-06 version, would have fixed a lot of the unreliability issues, as the French claimed 2/3rds of stoppages were caused by the half moon, open magazines and troops greasing the magazines to get the 8mm Lebel cartridges to feed properly.
Rimmed cartridges can be designed around (Bren gun obviously), but they are a nightmare to engineer a design to get to work properly.


So for everyone what about the influence it could/would have on other countries during and after the war? Let's assume the general course of the war and outcome are the same.

IMHO the US would jump on the .276 Pedersen ammo much more quickly once they experienced the 7mm Chauchat, so we could see the Pedersen rifle or .276 Garand considerably sooner than OTL development. The British would follow as they planned on adopting it if the US did so they could maintain commonality of ammo in case of another war so they could ensure supply lines would be more efficient/cheaper.

So we could see a US battle rifle with a box magazine and select fire capabilities before WW2 in .276 Pedersen, which would remove the need for the BAR and could well end up being a viable version of the M14 considering the cartridge was lower powered, so had substantially less recoil and heat build up.

The Germans too might adopt their 7x46mm or 39mm (two different designs) interwar cartridges that they were experimenting with since all the cool kids were doing it. The Soviets being Soviets would likely keep what they had to save money for the 5 year plans. The Italians and Japanese already had their own 6.5mm designs, so no need to change much.

A 7x46mm MG42 sounds quite interesting, especially since it would be made significantly lighter due to the lower powered cartridge. Same with a .276 Bren gun.
 
Indeed and given the tactics of the day the high rate of fire and lower recoil, plus ability to carry more ammo would have been a massive advantage.
While maximum rate of fire is much higher with semi-auto as opposed to manually-cycled the aimed rate of fire isn't all that much different with a well-designed one.

Spencer Repeating Rifle: 14-20/minute
Short-Magazine Lee-Enfield: 20-30/minute
Stuff like the AR-15: about 30/minute, IIRC

Spencers are black powder, lever action, and manually cocked with a 7-round tube magazine. SMLE's are bolt-action with a 10-round internal magazine. AR-15s are semi-auto and use detatchable box or drum magazines of up to 100 rounds which can be dropped and forgotten about.
 
While maximum rate of fire is much higher with semi-auto as opposed to manually-cycled the aimed rate of fire isn't all that much different with a well-designed one.

Spencer Repeating Rifle: 14-20/minute
Short-Magazine Lee-Enfield: 20-30/minute
Stuff like the AR-15: about 30/minute, IIRC
SMLE regulations say 15 aimed shots per minute. 12 is standard for non-straight pulls. 20-30 is a 'mad minute' unaimed FPF fire to prevent from being overrun or suppressing before a final assault.
Also aimed fire in this context is at a target 300 yards away and doesn't say anything about how many hits on average are achieved there. Keep in mind that is prone at a known distance and a pre-loaded rifle on a range. I have extreme doubts that in most combat situations even 15 aimed rounds per minute is viable for the average rifleman even with the SMLE. Experts could do all sorts of things on a range, but the average rifleman in combat is a very different situation.

30 for the AR is fully believable for aimed fire at that distance and if anything a serious undercount.
 
Last edited:
I'd like to know how they determined that and what the level of accuracy differences are. The 'mad minute' is basically range trick with bolt actions (the straight pulls are quite a bit easier than the rotating ones) that requires a lot of practice and experience with little accuracy and no way to really sustain fire in that mode if needed. I'd also question the ROF based on reloading alone.
The numbers for the Spencer and SMLE were pulled from directly from wikipedia and all three are probably low because a British Army musketry instructor once managed to hit a target 38 times in one minute from about 3/8 of a mile away ... in 1914 while using an SMLE.
 
The numbers for the Spencer and SMLE were pulled from directly from wikipedia and all three are probably low because a British Army musketry instructor once managed to hit a target 38 times in one minute from about 3/8 of a mile away ... in 1914 while using an SMLE.
You know what they say about wikipedia and accuracy. Also how does the world record by the best shooting instructor the British had mean the average is probably too low???
Also he didn't hit from 3/8s of a mile away the test was at 300-400 yards.
 
You know what they say about wikipedia and accuracy. Also how does the world record by the best shooting instructor the British had mean the average is probably too low???
Also he didn't hit from 3/8s of a mile away the test was at 300-400 yards.
I never said I had the best sources.

One of my sisters has an SMLE and tried to replicate his feat at about 800yds. She says she came close with 32 hitting the target and another 10 hitting the 3'x3' piece of plywood the target was glued to.
 
Last edited:
I never said I had the best sources.

One of my sisters has an SMLE and tried to replicate his feat at about 800yds. She says she came close with 32 hitting the target and another 10 hitting the 3'x3' piece of plywood the target was glued to.
Pretty impressive if she did that.

Here is a video of it being done:


No way a semi-auto rifle couldn't decisively beat that.
(these guys didn't have a similar video with the Garand firing as fast as possible)
 
Last edited:
Pretty impressive if she did that.

Here is a video of it being done:


No way a semi-auto rifle couldn't decisively beat that.

My sis wouldn't be an amateur struggling to work the action. She'd be lining up a shot while she's closing the bolt and might not need to use the sight.
 
Last edited:
Ultimately I think it would fail. A lot of the early semi-auto designs were just not good or reliable enough.

The French had a semi-auto rifle in WW1 that was not killed by ammo logistics - the Model 1917. Troops didn't like it because it was heavy, unreliable, and required too frequent cleaning. Production was stopped in 1918.

A 1914 semi-auto rifle is unlikely to be a Garand. It's far more likely to be a Gewehr 41.
 
Last edited:
Ultimately I think it would fail. A lot of the early semi-auto designs were just not good or reliable enough.

The French had a semi-auto rifle in WW1 that was not killed by ammo logistics - the Model 1917. Troops didn't like it because it was heavy, unreliable, and required too frequent cleaning, and production was stopped in 1918.

A 1914 semi-auto rifle is just not going to be a Garand, in all likelihood. It's far more likely to be a Gewehr 41.
Keep it stupid simple. If you want something semi-auto that's reliable and will work damn near anywhere: Beretta M1934

I think the total part count is 39 ... 5 of which are the 7-round heel-release magazine.
 


The extreme speed versions of the "Mad Minute" drill actually involve a specific technique where the middle finger is used to pull the trigger so that the shooter does not have to repeatedly grab and ungrab the bolt. Note that even though the shooter in this video does fumble several times, the rate of fire achieved is vastly higher than in the other video.
 


The extreme speed versions of the "Mad Minute" drill actually involve a specific technique where the middle finger is used to pull the trigger so that the shooter does not have to repeatedly grab and ungrab the bolt. Note that even though the shooter in this video does fumble several times, the rate of fire achieved is vastly higher than in the other video.

True, the ROF is higher. He also isn't aiming. He's just pointing the gun downrange and trying to spam as many shots off as he can addressed "to whom it may concern" instead of "you".
 


The extreme speed versions of the "Mad Minute" drill actually involve a specific technique where the middle finger is used to pull the trigger so that the shooter does not have to repeatedly grab and ungrab the bolt. Note that even though the shooter in this video does fumble several times, the rate of fire achieved is vastly higher than in the other video.


The TFB TV guy does do the same thing in the other video, although he's clearly less experienced with the technique.
 
The TFB TV guy does do the same thing in the other video, although he's clearly less experienced with the technique.
I sent the videos to my twin sister's husband. He's from East St. Louis and I'm pretty sure that repeating what he had to say would get me banned from TS.
 
True, the ROF is higher. He also isn't aiming. He's just pointing the gun downrange and trying to spam as many shots off as he can addressed "to whom it may concern" instead of "you".

The historical record for "mad minute" firing is 38 shots fired, all hitting the military standard 24-inch target at 300 yards.WWhile that was obviously exceptional, the service standard was that every soldier was expected to score fifteen hits in the minute using this rapid fire technique.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top