What If? What if Dune style Shields were created tomorrow?

[King Arts]

Let's say tomorrow morning a scientist figures out how to create Dune shields, and posts how to do it on the internet so everyone can see it and there are multiple copies circulating around. Let's say it's also easy to make, and very cheap. What would the reaction to shields that can stop anything that goes faster than an arrow? So that means guns are pretty much useless that means no more school shootings, murders will go down, the military will have to find new ways to fight. So what do you think will happen?

 

[ParadiseLost]

Alternative weapons rule the battlefield now.

Imagine high tech javelins.

Can you explain more about these shields, though, for those of us unfamiliar with Dune?

 

[Bear Ribs]

Alternative weapons rule the battlefield now.

Imagine high tech javelins.

Can you explain more about these shields, though, for those of us unfamiliar with Dune?

Shield

A defensive shield, commonly referred to as simply a shield and sometimes as a Holtzman shield, was a protective energy field that could surround the person who wore it. Shields were produced by a Holtzman generator, the field deriving from Phase One of the suspensor-nullification effect...

dune.fandom.com

Dune Shields block anything physical moving above a certain speed (I don't know that it's ever exactly defined), which blocks just about any projectile weapon but can by bypassed by knives and swords, hence everybody fighting with those in Dune. Notably you can actually move your arm faster than a shield's limit, as Paul Atreides mother notes during one of his duels with the Fremen that he's moving too slowly out of habit of fighting against shields. The main counter that isn't a melee weapon is the Maula pistol, which fires slow-moving poison darts and still only works at such short range that swords are a viable weapon.

Of great concern in this scenario is that a Dune shield cooks off like a nuke when hit by a laser. It's not clear how powerful the laser has to be to do this, but if any random cat-toy pointer will work then every nation, criminal gang, and random hobbyist on the planet now has access to nukes. If it takes an industrial-strength laser same scenario except random civilians can't do it, but most countries and even well equipped civilian groups will be able to throw a shield+laser+egg timer combo to set up nuclear timebombs. The balance of terror just got a lot more terrifying.

 

[King Arts]

Shield

A defensive shield, commonly referred to as simply a shield and sometimes as a Holtzman shield, was a protective energy field that could surround the person who wore it. Shields were produced by a Holtzman generator, the field deriving from Phase One of the suspensor-nullification effect...

dune.fandom.com

Dune Shields block anything physical moving above a certain speed (I don't know that it's ever exactly defined), which blocks just about any projectile weapon but can by bypassed by knives and swords, hence everybody fighting with those in Dune. Notably you can actually move your arm faster than a shield's limit, as Paul Atreides mother notes during one of his duels with the Fremen that he's moving too slowly out of habit of fighting against shields. The main counter that isn't a melee weapon is the Maula pistol, which fires slow-moving poison darts and still only works at such short range that swords are a viable weapon.

Of great concern in this scenario is that a Dune shield cooks off like a nuke when hit by a laser. It's not clear how powerful the laser has to be to do this, but if any random cat-toy pointer will work then every nation, criminal gang, and random hobbyist on the planet now has access to nukes. If it takes an industrial-strength laser same scenario except random civilians can't do it, but most countries and even well equipped civilian groups will be able to throw a shield+laser+egg timer combo to set up nuclear timebombs. The balance of terror just got a lot more terrifying.

Dune lasguns are far more powerful than laser pointers or anything we have though. Like one of their laser pistols could slag a column of tanks. So I think before we have to worry about lasers and shields being powerful enough to cause a nuclear explosion we'd need MUCH more potent energy generation and engineering to create a energy weapon that could instantly melt steel from miles away.

 

[ATP]

Let's say tomorrow morning a scientist figures out how to create Dune shields, and posts how to do it on the internet so everyone can see it and there are multiple copies circulating around. Let's say it's also easy to make, and very cheap. What would the reaction to shields that can stop anything that goes faster than an arrow? So that means guns are pretty much useless that means no more school shootings, murders will go down, the military will have to find new ways to fight. So what do you think will happen?

thermobaric warheads.Shields do not save you from that.And even 81mm mortars could launch them now.

 

[S'task]

murders will go down

I have my doubts about them going down. The substitution effect would immediately come into play, though perhaps murder rates would in fact go down, but assault/battery/attempted murder rates would go up. If someone is going to kill another person, lack of guns isn't going to do it, there's thousands of murders performed perfectly well without them.

That said, I do have to wonder how practical Dune shields even ARE. Consider, if you can move your arm fast enough to trigger the shield, that is actually a VERY low threshold. Punching usually only gets up to 20 MPH for experienced individuals. So how does a shield interact with simply moving that fast? Most cars move much faster than that, and that low speed also implies you can get simple WINDS that would trigger the shield.

That said, if the threshold really is that low, automobile accidents just got a lot less deadly, as the shields may in fact act as a sort of airbag.

 

[DocSolarisReich]

The shields used in Dune are at the end of a long history of technical refinement. In other words they are a mature technology. There’s no reason to believe that prototypes and first generation examples will be as cheap, easily portable, easy to power, as strong, as impermeable, etcetera as the ones in the time of the Padashah Emperors.

 

[King Arts]

I have my doubts about them going down. The substitution effect would immediately come into play, though perhaps murder rates would in fact go down, but assault/battery/attempted murder rates would go up. If someone is going to kill another person, lack of guns isn't going to do it, there's thousands of murders performed perfectly well without them.

That said, I do have to wonder how practical Dune shields even ARE. Consider, if you can move your arm fast enough to trigger the shield, that is actually a VERY low threshold. Punching usually only gets up to 20 MPH for experienced individuals. So how does a shield interact with simply moving that fast? Most cars move much faster than that, and that low speed also implies you can get simple WINDS that would trigger the shield.

That said, if the threshold really is that low, automobile accidents just got a lot less deadly, as the shields may in fact act as a sort of airbag.

Well of course guns by themselves don't kill people. People kill people. It's just that guns make it a bit easier. Shields will just make it easier to survive the attacks when they do happen. As for assault/battery rates going up. Not really, the thing is almost every murder involved an assualt and battery. It's just that prosecutors won't charge because it's kind of pointless at that point. It's like if the police caught someone who was using their computer to commit massive crimes, the prosecutor probably won't bother with too much time on a piracy charge.

The shields used in Dune are at the end of a long history of technical refinement. In other words they are a mature technology. There’s no reason to believe that prototypes and first generation examples will be as cheap, easily portable, easy to power, as strong, as impermeable, etcetera as the ones in the time of the Padashah Emperors.

I mean yes in real life if the technology was invented the prototypes would be expensive, big and bulky, and might not be able to stay powered on long. But the OP did say they were able to be made cheaply and are just like the Dune Shields, for simplicities sake.

 

[Bear Ribs]

Shields can also be applied to buildings so artillery is probably completely obsolete. Shields can protect from gasses so gas shells, thermobarics, flamethrowers, they all quit working. As we've handwaved away the nuke-from-lasers effect, the ideal ranged weapon is now going to be using laser pointers to try to blind enemy troopers as visible light seems to be the only thing that reliable penetrates them.

That said, I do have to wonder how practical Dune shields even ARE. Consider, if you can move your arm fast enough to trigger the shield, that is actually a VERY low threshold. Punching usually only gets up to 20 MPH for experienced individuals. So how does a shield interact with simply moving that fast? Most cars move much faster than that, and that low speed also implies you can get simple WINDS that would trigger the shield.

Wind does in fact trigger the shield. It's mentioned on the wiki page I linked above that the acceptable speed for a shield needs to be between 6 and 9 centimeters per second, else not enough air can get in the shield and you suffocate (SCUBA gear is apparently lost technology). Installations and buildings with shields typically dial it way lower because they just include air purifiers so that wind doesn't need to be able to get through.

 

[UltimatePaladin]

Forgot if this was ever brought up in Dune - could a shielded object penetrate another shielded object? Or do they repel one another?

 

[Bear Ribs]

I don't think it's said specifically but if they didn't interpenetrate, it wouldn't make sense for a shielded guy with a knife to be able to stab another shielded guy with a knife. However I believe shielded objects still have to move below the speed threshold, hence Paul moving his hand too slow because he was trained to stab through shields.

 

[PsihoKekec]

Micro drones with poison darts, it's how they tried to kill Paul right after arrival to Arrakis

 

[King Arts]

Shields can also be applied to buildings so artillery is probably completely obsolete. Shields can protect from gasses so gas shells, thermobarics, flamethrowers, they all quit working. As we've handwaved away the nuke-from-lasers effect, the ideal ranged weapon is now going to be using laser pointers to try to blind enemy troopers as visible light seems to be the only thing that reliable penetrates them.

Wind does in fact trigger the shield. It's mentioned on the wiki page I linked above that the acceptable speed for a shield needs to be between 6 and 9 centimeters per second, else not enough air can get in the shield and you suffocate (SCUBA gear is apparently lost technology). Installations and buildings with shields typically dial it way lower because they just include air purifiers so that wind doesn't need to be able to get through.

Wait I have a few questions? How would shields protect against gas? I mean if they don't allow poison gas inside then people can't breath air, unless they have a gas tank/NBC gear on them. My other question is if the shield is set too low on a building wouldn't that just cause problems? I mean yes you want it slow enough so that no one can kamikaze the building or launch artillery at it. But if it won't allow wind inside, couldn't people that are walking in and out keep fucking themselves up by accidently walking into the equivalent of a wall because they were walking to fast?

 

[Bear Ribs]

Wait I have a few questions? How would shields protect against gas? I mean if they don't allow poison gas inside then people can't breath air, unless they have a gas tank/NBC gear on them. My other question is if the shield is set too low on a building wouldn't that just cause problems? I mean yes you want it slow enough so that no one can kamikaze the building or launch artillery at it. But if it won't allow wind inside, couldn't people that are walking in and out keep fucking themselves up by accidently walking into the equivalent of a wall because they were walking to fast?

Ask Frank Herbert. The way shields work has no small amount of wonky involved, and it's one of those "author didn't fully think through the implications" which is fine since the books weren't really about the technology and the shields were just an excuse to have matters settled with knife fights. Shields also don't work well on Arrakis since they attract and enrage Sandworms so the vast majority of the books' action occurs in places you can't use a shield. Consequently actual feats involving them are rare and they're mostly a background item that isn't thoroughly explored.

My best guess is that since "Half-Shields" that only cover part of an area exist, we can extrapolate that shields can be shaped and be missing sections. Consequently buildings might have a section over the doorway that is taken down briefly when a person walks in through it, possibly something like a mantrap. That's my conjecture though.

As for air, it's specifically spelled out that buildings have starship-grade life support so that they can be shielded tightly enough not to let air in. A person could thus do the same with an air tank (but nobody in Dune carries one).

Micro drones with poison darts, it's how they tried to kill Paul right after arrival to Arrakis

It should be relatively easy to create full-body armor that could block such slow-moving darts, you hardly need bulletproof armor for them. It probably wouldn't be day-to-day wear but I'd expect in short order that soldiers would commonly wear such full body suits, along with anti-laser goggles and an air supply good for a few minutes so that the shield can be set to "block everything" in a pinch.

 

[King Arts]

Ask Frank Herbert. The way shields work has no small amount of wonky involved, and it's one of those "author didn't fully think through the implications" which is fine since the books weren't really about the technology and the shields were just an excuse to have matters settled with knife fights. Shields also don't work well on Arrakis since they attract and enrage Sandworms so the vast majority of the books' action occurs in places you can't use a shield. Consequently actual feats involving them are rare and they're mostly a background item that isn't thoroughly explored.

My best guess is that since "Half-Shields" that only cover part of an area exist, we can extrapolate that shields can be shaped and be missing sections. Consequently buildings might have a section over the doorway that is taken down briefly when a person walks in through it, possibly something like a mantrap. That's my conjecture though.

As for air, it's specifically spelled out that buildings have starship-grade life support so that they can be shielded tightly enough not to let air in. A person could thus do the same with an air tank (but nobody in Dune carries one).

No I get that building level shields could not let air in, and you can still breath by relying on life support and there is air inside the building. But for regular infantry that are not wearing gas masks the shield would have to be high enough to let air and some wind move through otherwise once you turn on the shield you start suffocating.

It should be relatively easy to create full-body armor that could block such slow-moving darts, you hardly need bulletproof armor for them. It probably wouldn't be day-to-day wear but I'd expect in short order that soldiers would commonly wear such full body suits, along with anti-laser goggles and an air supply good for a few minutes so that the shield can be set to "block everything" in a pinch.

But flame throwers and knives, swords, and spears should still work since those don't really rely on speed to kill.

 

[Bear Ribs]

No I get that building level shields could not let air in, and you can still breath by relying on life support and there is air inside the building. But for regular infantry that are not wearing gas masks the shield would have to be high enough to let air and some wind move through otherwise once you turn on the shield you start suffocating.


But flame throwers and knives, swords, and spears should still work since those don't really rely on speed to kill.

What I mean is that shields can clearly be dialed to prevent gasses from entry because we see it done, therefore infantry shields could be made to prevent gas entry. The soldier in question would need an air tank but that's not exactly rare technology, and the military would need to be as sharp as a bag full of hammers to not include that option.

It's spelled out in Dune that the Emperor wipes out Houses that start developing intelligent tactics and well-trained troops, hence they rarely use their tech to the full.

"The Padishah Emperor turned against House Atreides because the Duke's Warmasters, Gurney Halleck and Duncan Idaho, had trained a fighting force - a small fighting force - to within a hair as good as the Sardaukar. Some of them were even better. And the Duke was in a position to enlarge his force, to make it every bit as strong as the Emperor's."

At the point where you're blocking gas you'll also block flame since that's effectively just superheated gas and burning liquid, which wouldn't pass through the shield and also wouldn't stick to it. It's possible the thermal radiation would pass through sufficiently to kill anyway but it would take longer than normal, and flamethrowers take a minute or so to kill without shields.

Of great interest, the Holtzman effect that allows shields and the Holtzman generator they are powered by is also what's used to produce FTL drives and can levitate objects. So we should be able to build spacecraft and have easy spacelift if we can build shields. In-universe you need Spice Melange to fly through space but that's because they don't use so much as calculators and thus you need Awareness Expanding Narcotics to supercharge a human brain to do the calculations. Ixian Navigation Machines did just fine and we have computers so we can likely manage it. Even if FTL is unavailable cheap hover and levitation tech is going to probably be as influential, if not more, than shields.

 

[King Arts]

I was about to bring up the Holtzman Effect for anti grav and teleporation. But I mean I don't know if shields will be made that slow for infantry. I mean NBC gear is not comfy to be in, a shield is like a small belt. It would be easier to have the soldiers always have it on, so that means keeping it fast enough to allow air in. But maybe special forces or storm trooper units or SWAT that are going to assault a position now, would be given the super slow shields for extra protection.

 

[Bear Ribs]

It may be possible to set the shield with a dial-a-density setting so that a soldier can hit a button to switch to "airtight" mode when needed and breath when it's not. It could even potentially be connected to a chemical sensor that automatically protects the soldier when poison gas is detected. That said it's equally possible a shield's density has to be built in when it's made so this bit's speculation on my part.

If it's not, I agree that infantry won't typically have an airtight shield, just as most soldiers don't carry a gas mask 24/7. However if there's a chance of gas being deployed, the military would likely immediately issue NBC gear just as they do today.

We may see a return of modified shield wall tactics and medieval armor as well. It's really hard to stab a guy though brigadine and if stabbing's the only option on the table, soldiers are going to switch from bulletproof vests to armor that works against stabbing. Tactics would be modified to account for differences from those days, archers will no longer be a threat while shielded tanks (probably no longer mounting a cannon, instead using a bulldozer blade or the like) rolling through the front lines crushing dudes would be a serious issue so tactics would have to be adjusted to account for those changes.

 

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Swords become popular among normal people. There would probably be lots of cheap, mass produced swords, like the swords manufactured for the Japanese Imperial Army during WW2. Swords are more fashionable than guns so I'd imagine that there would be a lot more people willing to pay for highly decorated swords than people pay for fancy guns today. There could also be innovations for sword technology, such as folding swords that can be concealed catching on (swords have the advantage over knives in reach and momentum at the tip and are way easier to block with, and in a world where everyone is going to have a sword, you'll want one too, so if you can choose between carrying a knife and a folding sword, you'll pick the sword).

As for armies, that depends on the limitations of shield technology. I'd imagine mundane stuff like gas or tasers or poisoned dart repeaters seeing more use. I doubt stuff like the flamethrower suggestion would see that much more use, as it causes a lot of collateral damage and can kill people you didn't intend to.

 

[King Arts]

Swords become popular among normal people. There would probably be lots of cheap, mass produced swords, like the swords manufactured for the Japanese Imperial Army during WW2. Swords are more fashionable than guns so I'd imagine that there would be a lot more people willing to pay for highly decorated swords than people pay for fancy guns today. There could also be innovations for sword technology, such as folding swords that can be concealed catching on (swords have the advantage over knives in reach and momentum at the tip and are way easier to block with, and in a world where everyone is going to have a sword, you'll want one too, so if you can choose between carrying a knife and a folding sword, you'll pick the sword).

As for armies, that depends on the limitations of shield technology. I'd imagine mundane stuff like gas or tasers or poisoned dart repeaters seeing more use. I doubt stuff like the flamethrower suggestion would see that much more use, as it causes a lot of collateral damage and can kill people you didn't intend to.

So what about things like cane swords, those are elegant and stylish, yet can also be subtle so it's like the premodern version of concealed carry lol.