What are your thoughts on amending the US Constitution in order to allow naturalized US citizens to become US President?

[Bacle]

I think most people by this point are the children of immigrants as most of the original families have died out or have intermarried into immigrant bloodlines. Most whites at this point are about as British or as German as so called "African" Americans are actually African. We can argue about whether we need to put a no vacancy sign on the American but unless we actually plan to start a civil war (please for the love of all things good no.) Arguing about which bloodline America "rightfully" belongs to is stupid. This is The United States of America not Crusader Kings 2

I dare you to go to the Navajo nation and say that everyone there is a 'child of immigrants'.

That entire idea is a neolib twisting of facts to try to make it easier to excuse immigration abuses, nothing more or less.

 

[SpaceOrbis]

No, because a lot of the ancestors of many Americans came to the US before there WAS a US, and we're here when the Revolutionary War happened. That makes them Americans, not immigrants or citizens of other nations who 'came' here.

For example one of my ancestors was Daniel Boone himself, who kept the Brits and Indians off Washington's western flank and scouted out the Cumberland Gap. And that goes double for anyone with Native American ancestory, or family who were on the land before the US became a thing or took control of the land (Norteno Hispanic families in the West, for example).

Not everyone in the US is a 'child of immigrants' despite what the Left spouts, and treating everyone in the US as a child of immigrants is a farce the neolibs came up with. It's part of why I left the Dems.

So acting like the standards we have for immigration now are should be turned round to attack people who came before in some pathetic 'gatcha' moment is a hallmark of Leftist bullshit.

America is not a 'land of immigrants' despite what Lefty lies proclaim, or what that stupid poem says on the Statue of Liberty implies.

We are not obligated to allow people to abuse our immigration system to pull fast ones on the American public, simply because things are not perfect in someone's home country. If people are truly fleeing for their lives, they can try for refugee status; just wanting to get your kid US citizenship using a well-timed vacation is not something the US wants to encoarage and that is why CBP has pregnancy issues as part of it's screening.

America is not obligated to be the place that takes in all the rest of the world's charity cases and problems. Our immigration system is too easy to abuse as is, no way should we make it any loser. We need to focus on making things better for the people already here, which is difficult as is.

I feel like you're taking what I said and spinning it to mean something else mate. I agree we shouldn't be the dropping grounds for the world's losers but we also shouldn't just turn them away. They clearly want to be citizens or they would be making the trip to our nation. We need people to come here if for no other reason than so nobody else can have them.

We have to make our immigration system function in such a way so that it doesn't take nearly 10 years to become a citizen of the country. Making walls sounds nice as a sound bit but walls don't stop people from coming here. If people want to be here they will find a way in. People will dig their way in if that's what it will take.

What we need to be doing isn't making it easier par say but make it take less time. Hire more workers or something. We have people willing to be here lawfully. Let us help them become lawful citizens.

 

[Bacle]

I feel like you're taking what I said and spinning it to mean something else mate. I agree we shouldn't be the dropping grounds for the world's losers but we also shouldn't just turn them away. They clearly want to be citizens or they would be making the trip to our nation. We need people to come here if for no other reason than so nobody else can have them.

We have to make our immigration system function in such a way so that it doesn't take nearly 10 years to become a citizen of the country. Making walls sounds nice as a sound bit but walls don't stop people from coming here. If people want to be here they will find a way in. People will dig their way in if that's what it will take.

What we need to be doing isn't making it easier par say but make it take less time. Hire more workers or something. We have people willing to be here lawfully. Let us help them become lawful citizens.

You act like the US owes it to the people of other nations to make it as easy for them to come here and become citizens as possible.

We need stricter, more merit based immigration, and we need to actually deport the illegals who have come here; you will not get may people on the Right onboard with loosening the immigration system at all. If people truly want to get into the US and deserve it, they can prove it by going through the current legal methods, which includes the wait times.

 

[WolfBear]

No, because a lot of the ancestors of many Americans came to the US before there WAS a US, and we're here when the Revolutionary War happened. That makes them Americans, not immigrants or citizens of other nations who 'came' here.

For example one of my ancestors was Daniel Boone himself, who kept the Brits and Indians off Washington's western flank and scouted out the Cumberland Gap. And that goes double for anyone with Native American ancestory, or family who were on the land before the US became a thing or took control of the land (Norteno Hispanic families in the West, for example).

Not everyone in the US is a 'child of immigrants' despite what the Left spouts, and treating everyone in the US as a child of immigrants is a farce the neolibs came up with. It's part of why I left the Dems.

So acting like the standards we have for immigration now are should be turned round to attack people who came before in some pathetic 'gatcha' moment is a hallmark of Leftist bullshit.

America is not a 'land of immigrants' despite what Lefty lies proclaim, or what that stupid poem says on the Statue of Liberty implies.

We are not obligated to allow people to abuse our immigration system to pull fast ones on the American public, simply because things are not perfect in someone's home country. If people are truly fleeing for their lives, they can try for refugee status; just wanting to get your kid US citizenship using a well-timed vacation is not something the US wants to encoarage and that is why CBP has pregnancy issues as part of it's screening.

America is not obligated to be the place that takes in all the rest of the world's charity cases and problems. Our immigration system is too easy to abuse as is, no way should we make it any loser. We need to focus on making things better for the people already here, which is difficult as is.

A lot of Americans' ancestors actually came here after 1840, which is when our first great post-independence immigration wave began. Hillary Clinton, for instance, if I recall correctly, doesn't actually have any ancestors who lived in the US before 1840.

 

[SpaceOrbis]

I dare you to go to the Navajo nation and say that everyone there is a 'child of immigrants'.

That entire idea is a neolib twisting of facts to try to make it easier to excuse immigration abuses, nothing more or less.

I would have to disagree. Just about everybody here has some immigrant family members somewhere in their family trees. Unless you're a native whose people have done their best to be pure native you're going to have British, French, German, Polish, Russian, African, Japanese, Korean and various other ethnicities in your family tree.

When your nation is older than 240+ years it'll be damn near impossible to not have that be a fact. This is of course overlooking the 100+ years before the United States was even a nation.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

I dare you to go to the Navajo nation and say that everyone there is a 'child of immigrants'.

That entire idea is a neolib twisting of facts to try to make it easier to excuse immigration abuses, nothing more or less.

the Navajo nation as well as all other Native American nations are dead. there are a totally of five million in the entire world. That's less than 2% of just America alone and I guarantee you a decent size of them have probably intermarried into non native american families so there probably is some white or some black in a good chunk of them. So in a way they probably are a child of immigrants.

 

[Bacle]

the Navajo nation as well as all other Native American nations are dead. there are a totally of five million in the entire world. That's less than 2% of just America alone and I guarantee you a decent size of them have probably intermarried into non native american families so there probably is some white or some black in a good chunk of them. So in a way they probably are a child of immigrants.

As I said, I dare you to actually say that to the faces of people like the Navajo nation.

'Intermarried with immigrants' does not remove ancestory that was here before the nation was formed or mean that it makes people 'children of immigrants'.

As I've said, this is a neolib narrative that they've created to excuse trying to loosen immigraiton laws and get amnesty for illegals.

 

[SpaceOrbis]

You act like the US owes it to the people of other nations to make it as easy for them to come here and become citizens as possible.

We need stricter, more merit-based immigration, and we need to actually deport the illegals who have come here; you will not get may people on the Right onboard with loosening the immigration system at all. If people truly want to get into the US and deserve it, they can prove it by going through the current legal methods, which include the wait times.

Not easier...better. There really is no reason why anybody should have to wait years to become a citizen of any nation. Making it harder clearly isn't stopping people from trying to get here. So we should maybe stop trying to do that. Unless we are going to put mines and gun nests on the wall people will come here.

So I say hire more workers and get those people in here lawfully. If they are willing to do what is needed to be a citizen why should we stop them?

 

[The Whispering Monk]

They clearly want to be citizens or they would be making the trip to our nation.

Not necessarily true. Many just want to come in to work so they can send money to their family in their home country.

We have to make our immigration system function in such a way so that it doesn't take nearly 10 years to become a citizen of the country.

No problem with this.

Making walls sounds nice as a sound bit but walls don't stop people from coming here. If people want to be here they will find a way in.

Walls work. Otherwise, your house would just be a roof. As for getting in...that's why we put doors in the walls. I'm in favor of a simple rule, if you don't use the door you get kicked the frack out.

We have people willing to be here lawfully. Let us help them become lawful citizens.

Eeehhhh...not so much. I'm much more in favor of requiring that those seeking citizenship show they have a means to support themselves and their family, as well as demonstrate a needed skill that will enhance the US.

 

[Bacle]

Not easier...better. There really is no reason why anybody should have to wait years to become a citizen of any nation. Making it harder clearly isn't stopping people from trying to get here. So we should maybe stop trying to do that. Unless we are going to put mines and gun nests on the wall people will come here.

So I say hire more workers and get those people in here lawfully. If they are willing to do what is needed to be a citizen why should we stop them?

We do not need more people immigrating to the US; we have a hard enough time keeping things going for the people here already.

I'd be fine with a complete immigration freeze at this point, really. It'd allow the backlog of already existing immigration applications to be sorted through more thoroughly and allow the US to shift focus to merit based immigration, where people have to prove they are worth it for the US to let them in.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

As I said, I dare you to actually say that to the faces of people like the Navajo nation.

I'm not wasting gas money to go all the way to new mexico and navada just to tell some random dude one sentence.

'Intermarried with immigrants' does not remove ancestry that was here before the nation was formed or mean that it makes people 'children of immigrants'.

and yet I doubt you'd exist without that other non american ancestry part of your family tree.

As I've said, this is a neolib narrative that they've created to excuse trying to loosen immigration laws and get amnesty for illegals.

yet you and a bunch of other people seem to be falling for it as you are now trying to use the exact opposite argument and narrative.

and before you try to accuse me of being some kind of bleeding heart. I can't stand border hoppers.

 

[WolfBear]

You act like the US owes it to the people of other nations to make it as easy for them to come here and become citizens as possible.

We need stricter, more merit based immigration, and we need to actually deport the illegals who have come here; you will not get may people on the Right onboard with loosening the immigration system at all. If people truly want to get into the US and deserve it, they can prove it by going through the current legal methods, which includes the wait times.

Libertarians such as Ilya Somin are critics of merit-based immigration systems because they don't require natives to pass an equivalent merit test.

We do not need more people immigrating to the US; we have a hard enough time keeping things going for the people here already.

I'd be fine with a complete immigration freeze at this point, really. It'd allow the backlog of already existing immigration applications to be sorted through more thoroughly and allow the US to shift focus to merit based immigration, where people have to prove they are worth it for the US to let them in.

Would you approve of IQ testing in immigration policy for this purpose? As in, allowing people with high IQs to immigrate here even if they haven't actually done anything notable yet?

 

[SpaceOrbis]

Not necessarily true. Many just want to come in to work so they can send money to their family in their home country.


No problem with this.


Walls work. Otherwise, your house would just be a roof. As for getting in...that's why we put doors in the walls. I'm in favor of a simple rule, if you don't use the door you get kicked the frack out.


Eeehhhh...not so much. I'm much more in favor of requiring that those seeking citizenship show they have a means to support themselves and their family, as well as demonstrate a needed skill that will enhance the US.

1-True but isn't that true for anybody. People work so their families have money. I do understand why people may not like the idea of paying somebody who will not put that money to work in our nation but I don't really see a way to solve that outside of having whole families become citizens in mass.

2-Walls work for homes sure but as a means of keeping people outside your nation less so. If my knowledge of Chinese history is anything to go by they also had a wall and didn't work out. We already had a wall before Trump and we still had people flooding into the nation. It was all a sound bit. It sounded nice but didn't mean much. If people want to get in they will. If you have a 15-foot high wall somebody will just use a 16-foot high ladder.

 

[SpaceOrbis]

We do not need more people immigrating to the US; we have a hard enough time keeping things going for the people here already.

I'd be fine with a complete immigration freeze at this point, really. It'd allow the backlog of already existing immigration applications to be sorted through more thoroughly and allow the US to shift focus to merit based immigration, where people have to prove they are worth it for the US to let them in.

I would be fine with a complete immigration freeze as well. We don't need to allow people to move here 24 hours a day seven days a week. I would say stop it altogether during presidential election years. Because we all know one side will try to bus people in to vote one way and that isn't fair. eight out of ten years isn't too bad.

 

[Bacle]

Libertarians such as Ilya Somin are critics of merit-based immigration systems because they don't require natives to pass an equivalent merit test.



Would you approve of IQ testing in immigration policy for this purpose? As in, allowing people with high IQs to immigrate here even if they haven't actually done anything notable yet?

I've never heard of Ilya Somin before, and that idea is a ridiculous farce; just because some people abuse the US immigration system does not mean we need to make life more difficult for people who were born here in legit ways (aka not anchor babies for illegals or birth tourism kids).

As for IQ testing; I don't put much stock in IQ tests to begin with, so it's not something I'd care to make part of the immigration system. I care more if people have useful skill sets or knowledge that is hard to come by in the US, or have proven means to support themselves, which will strengthen the US if an immigrant brings it with them.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

I've never heard of Ilya Somin before, and that idea is a ridiculous farce; just because some people abuse the US immigration system does not mean we need to make life more difficult for people who were born here in legit ways (aka not anchor babies for illegals or birth tourism kids).

As for IQ testing; I don't put much stock in IQ tests to begin with, so it's not something I'd care to make part of the immigration system. I care more if people have useful skill sets or knowledge that is hard to come by in the US, or have proven means to support themselves, which will strengthen the US if an immigrant brings it with them.

I honestly care more about people not raising their kids to be commies and socialist because they are having nostalgia for their old country Feel free to bring back your food art and even some customs from the old country but the moment you bring your politics from the old country to here, you and I have a problem. When you immigrate to another country your public denouncing and shaming your old one.

People seem to forget that.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

I do understand why people may not like the idea of paying somebody who will not put that money to work in our nation but I don't really see a way to solve that outside of having whole families become citizens in mass.

No problem if you want to send money back. What I am in favor of is placing an export tariff on that money. A LOT of these earners are cash workers. So this at least hits them with some form of taxation of their income.

We already had a wall before Trump

Not really. There were some places with a wall up, but there was still hundreds of miles where one could easily walk across the border.

It sounded nice but didn't mean much.

Wrong again. Where the walls are completed. The number of illegal border crossings go down.

If people want to get in they will.

Sure, if they are willing to expend the effort to get past the hindrances we put in their way. The idea is not to make something impervious. You can't. What you can do is make it harder.

 

[SpaceOrbis]

No problem if you want to send money back. What I am in favor of is placing an export tariff on that money. A LOT of these earners are cash workers. So this at least hits them with some form of taxation of their income.


Not really. There were some places with a wall up, but there was still hundreds of miles where one could easily walk across the border.


Wrong again. Where the walls are completed. The number of illegal border crossings go down.


Sure, if they are willing to expend the effort to get past the hindrances we put in their way. The idea is not to make something impervious. You can't. What you can do is make it harder.

1-I think outside of having whole families be made citizens this is perhaps the best choice. It isn't the greatest thing to be sure but a small tax is at least better than having money just exit the nation to aid somebody outside of it.

2-Sure but a lot of that is fairly void of anything so a wall along the whole thing wouldn't really be needed. The whole wall thing was more a sound bit more than anything else. Trump knew that there were people here that would be gun-ho about keeping them folks out and so he used that to his gain. I don't agree we need more walls par say. I think we need to just process the people we already have waiting for citizenship. Multiyear-long waits are just nonsense. Hire some people to aid in speeding that along. That is a far better use of our effects. We need a better immigration system, not a harder immigration system.

3-Of course because you now have a massive wall in the way. But again if you're willing to travel for days on end a wall isn't going to stop you. It'll slow you down and may get you caught by the people looking for people like them but I feel a lot of that is because they know how poor our immigration system is. Nobody should have to wait years to get in. If you do that is a failure that needs to get fixed. I'm all for ensuring our nation is kept safe but let's not be so nuts that we start looking more like the border to North/South Korea.

Yes, I do know some people who would like to see us be that nuts with our southern border. I think they are utterly out of their minds. We will always have people coming here for a better life. If they are going to come I say lets make it work as best it can.

I for one would look for people who know things. God knows we could use people who know where shit is on a map. Half the time I feel like most people wouldn't know what part of the world New Zealand is. Hell, sometimes I see maps that don't even have that but that's another matter.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

I think we need to just process the people we already have waiting for citizenship. Multiyear-long waits are just nonsense.

What's wrong with making people wait years for citizenship?

We need a better immigration system, not a harder immigration system.

Why can't we have both?

I'm actually more in favor of a complete hold on new immigration so that we can focus on two things.
First, find and prosecute all those who entered this country illegally. IFF they have been acting as stable members of society will they be allowed to enter the queue to possibly become citizens after dealing with the consequences of having broken our laws to get here. If they have broken laws after that initial entry, then they get deported. Do not stop at Go. Do not collect $200.
Second, we need to make a serious effort to help those we wish to remain become acculturated to the idea of the United States, and the responsibilities required of freedom. (Hell, we probably need to do this just to remind all our native citizens of this too.)

Nobody should have to wait years to get in. If you do that is a failure that needs to get fixed.

Again, why not? What's wrong with waiting for something and working for something that's worthwhile?

 

[LordsFire]

And we do? Just about everybody living here is from other places. We kind of killed off most of the natives by the 20th century. But if you were born in US airspace or on US soil you are by all rights a US citizen by means of your birth place.

1. We did not 'kill off most of the natives.' The worst population damage native americans suffered was due to diseases, and despite some modern revisionists claiming otherwise, there was no intentional campaign to do that, it was the same kind of results as what happened to Europeans who tried to travel deep into Africa before medical science advanced enough to deal with the diseases found there.

2. Being born on US soil does not mean that you will be raised with the values and culture that have historically defined America. Sadly, in this day that is true whether you're born here because of birth tourism or your parents are citizens, but whatever way you want to deal with this issue, it is a very real issue.

This is more a matter of should people go to a nation that is better for their child and have a child there vs here when they have no hope of a better life. Keep in mind it's their child that would be a citizen of the United States. It is also a matter of how broken our immigration system that doing this is seen as the only way to ensure their child has at least a hope for a better life.

I agree that it sucks that people who this but maybe if we do more to get the people in and less trying to keep them out we wouldn't have this happen so much. If people are so willing to become citizens we should do all we can to get them in lawfully.

No. Just because a non-citizen wants their child to grow up in the US, does not mean they have a right to do that.

I will agree that our immigration system is broken, but we have zero obligation legal or moral to let hordes of people enter our nation willy-nilly because it's the most prosperous nation on Earth. If they want to, for example, spend 5-10 years in the military to earn citizenship, I respect that. If they're willing to wait patiently for legal resident admittance, and we have that throttled to a reasonable pace, I respect that.

I'm even amenable to a reasonable number of refugees from serious life-threatening tyranny in for no other reasons than that they're refugees. So long as it is a reasonable number.

'I want in because your nation has more money' is not a justifiable reason. Especially given that people's refusal to try to make their own nation a better place (in a way that would actually work) is a key part of why so many nations are messed up in the first place.

America is not a 'land of immigrants' despite what Lefty lies proclaim, or what that stupid poem says on the Statue of Liberty implies.

The key part of the poem that so often gets overlooked is 'yearning to breathe free.'

If they're here because they yearn for more money, for higher social status, for a chance to just expand their business? We'll take them into consideration.

If they're here for free hand-outs, we should bar the door.

But if they're here because they want to live free? Then they have some of the essence of what it means to be American, and we can see about bringing them in and teaching them the rest of what that means.

It's not a stupid poem, but it is often an abused one.

What we need to be doing isn't making it easier par say but make it take less time. Hire more workers or something. We have people willing to be here lawfully. Let us help them become lawful citizens.

This is a piece of leftist propaganda. Walls deter crossings, actually patrolling the border deters crossings, actually kicking out border jumpers deters crossings, I could go on.

Will it stop everybody? No.

But that does not mean it will stop nobody, and the propagandists who push the false equivalence know that.

Here's some references on deterring border crossings:

Hungarian Border Fence So Effective Illegal Immigrants Are Now At Pre Migrant-Crisis Levels

The Hungarian border fence has been a remarkable success, according to new figures made public by Viktor Orban's homeland security chief this week.

www.breitbart.com

https://i0.wp.com/www.amren.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/East-German-Immigration.png?resize=599%2C399&ssl=1

Yes, I do know some people who would like to see us be that nuts with our southern border. I think they are utterly out of their minds. We will always have people coming here for a better life. If they are going to come I say lets make it work as best it can.

I for one would look for people who know things. God knows we could use people who know where shit is on a map. Half the time I feel like most people wouldn't know what part of the world New Zealand is. Hell, sometimes I see maps that don't even have that but that's another matter.

Post after post, you seem to have nothing but hollow platitudes.

There is a reason it takes a long time to become a citizen, and that's because (with the sole exception of becoming a citizen through marriage) we want people to live here long enough to actually become American. Seven to ten years is perfectly reasonable in that regard.

Now, when we're talking about years of delay because of inefficient and incompetent bureaucracy, that's another matter. Taht does seriously need to be reformed.

On the whole, we already have tens of millions of immigrants that have not assimilated into our culture. There are areas where Spanish is spoken more often than English. We cannot remain a coherent nation if we do not limit the intake to a rate where people 'melting pot' into the local culture over the generations, we will cease to exist as a nation. Especially given all the other problems we're having that damage our national cohesion.