History Western Civilization, Rome and Cyclical History

Well I didn't mean to misquote you. I honestly felt "condemn" was a suitable synonym to what you were suggesting. I apologize for my error. Regardless, what you describe sounds a lot worse than condemn.

My reaction came across more harshly than I meant it to be. I was just trying to clarify my thoughts. I didn't mean for it to come across as attacking your post.

And yes, what I expect is certainly worse than what you outlined!


That's what I figured but I did want to make sure. Now I'll admit this could be a difference of politics or nationality but as an American I can't see the Universal-Church as the good guys here. It goes against everything I was raised to believe in, everything I viewed as an unalloyed good. Everything I want to believe is good.

I'm not going to get up on a high horse and claim I'd never do it. I know statistically, if we all were in Nazi Germany in 1930's, most of us would have been good little Nazi's because the price for non-conformity was too high for most individuals. So yes in some future year hence I, or my descendent, might join the mob and willingly, maybe even gleefully, wiped out the "other" but I hope, I pray, that I have the courage to stand by my convictions. That would be a better "life" than surviving as the mob.

My view is that history has no "good guys". Not really. There are often clear cases of "worse guys", who we're glad to see gone, but that rarely renders their opponents into saints. And there are surely individuals who demonstrate clear heroism. But when we look at the big picture, at the overall "sides" and factions that struggle against one another... there are bad guys everywhere.

Men are flawed beings.


I think that's a rather glaring difference. One is a series of different churches that have agreed, at least broadly, on central tenents but have their own unique spin and interpretations from there. What you are describing is more Catholic Church 2.0 where there is a central authority to maintain some degree of orthodoxy. That may allow for window dressing differences, those that don't conflict with the central dogma, but still subservient to this central power be it a Pope, religious council or whoever is God-Emperor that week.

So I just want, for the record, to say, in my view at least, I see the two outlines as significantly different indeed almost polar opposites world views.

Personaly, I look at the practical reality of life on the ground, and conclude that there is little difference of tangible effect. Of course, from my own background (Catholic), it may be easier to wave a hand at such things. But then again, you'll note that I casually indicated that the Papacy will most probably be terminated and that role usurped by the head of the universal state-- so I'm not afraid to posit a world that brushes aside some pretty fundamental elements of Catholicism, either...

Nobody is exempt from history, after all. My point, however, is that Protestantism (by and large) is already well attuned to obeying an authority. After all, the main political ramification of the Reformation was that heads of state became heads of the national church. The USA is actually a bit of a weird outlier in that regard... and I (obviously) think a temporary one. In that specific context, note that I propose that the future "Caesarist" movement will have distinct religious overtones, and (certainly in the American context) of a mostly Protestant flavour. (Although I think it'll deliberately aim for a "national Christianity" kind of thing, where people of all mainline denominations are welcome so long as they are suitably loyal to the goals of the movement.)

This leads me to believe that the very existence of the idolised, half-statesman-half-prophet "Caesar" figure will... acclimatise his followers to the (only natural!) notion that he is the desired leader of their state and the desired leader of their church. As such, Caesarism in its own way paves the path for the universalism of the Principate.


Shrug. I find @Skallagrim quite informed and knowledgeable on the subject, even persuasive, and I find many of the ideas he presents quite fascinating even if I don't agree with all the details.

That's very kind of you to say!

Naturally, I don't expect people to agree with my on the details-- and in fact, I'm sure to be wrong on many of them.


What's "important" and what "matters" will always depend upon the power holding the reigns. Giving the temptation, and ability, for 24 surveillance, our digital lifestyle removing any concept of privacy and human nature I'm not nearly as confident you will be left alone day-to-day.

And ultimately your happiness or well-being are not a consideration anymore than farm animals have a say in how things are performed. So I could see some intrusions from forced, daily prayer services to nutritional control so that serfs don't grow too fat and lazy to be good proles. And that's assuming they even aspire to be a functional state as opposed to a North Korea police state with enough nukes to protect their sovereignty.

Far from an end to the intrusion of Government in our lives I fear this world after tomorrow will unleashed it like no other before was capable of. Something the USSR of old would have drooled over. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe pragmatism or the three legged stool of king, lords and church will prevent this. Or maybe it all ends in nuclear mushrooms and we go back to bashing texts into stone.

My objection was more directed towards within the Universal Empire, whether it occupied a country or a hemisphere, and the morality of offering a person the choice of committing suicide or have "the execution of any and all relatives within the seventh degree of consanguinity". That skallagrim seemed to take the stance that, while no doubt regretful, is an acceptable act to move us from darkness towards the light where as I view it as the sort of draconian approach I object to the Left using to silence dissident and force homogenized "consensuses".

Part of that is of course due to our differing starting assumptions. Skallagrim, not without reason, believes authority will be reasonable come the Principality and the madness of overreach will be a shadow of our past. As such he takes the view the homogenization will be very broad with wide heterogeneous regionality allowed and thus any dissident will only be the most radical, fringed outliers that couldn't compromise with the core dogma.

I take the stance all men are tyrants if given the means and our level of technology means there is nothing beyond the Government's eye. That the God-Emperor chief deacon can watch in real time any sermon being conducted in any church, or if desired, home of the Empire to make sure it complies with accepted orthodoxy. That the entire world is essentially a village now let alone the titular Empire itself. And once you accepted the Imperial government can kill people for "praying wrong" there's no real mechanism to prevent that screw from being tightened forever shifting "radical, fringed outliers" closer towards the center much like how the Left constantly shifts what is acceptable in culture.

I don't actually disagree in the long run, but there are important factors that lead me to believe that the Principate will be an age of limited government. Not necessarily of a limited ruler (the Emperor is essentially an absolute monarch, even if the Constitution pretends otherwise), but an age in which the government is essentially unwilling to involve itself in the day-to-day lives of the people.

In the Principate, all politics become court politics. The Emperor may have courtiers and magnates executed or exiled; he may have wealthy plutocrats divested of their riches when they step out of line... but if you live a few hundred miles away, you can bet he never visits. Pay the modest tithe, obey the (much-reduced and fairly basic) laws of the imperial government, go to church on Sundays, and don't be a problem to the larger functioning of society. No more is expected of a citizen.

The reason things are bound to be like that is three-fold.

First, the preceding age (our age, c. 1800 - c. 2100) is a period of upheavals, social experimentation, and unprecedented governmental growth and excess. This culminates in brutal "global civil wars" that are effectively the conclusion of a triptych. The age of "modernity" began with the French Revolution and its excesses, followed by Napoleon and the warfare state (e.g. levée en masse). In the middle, we have the World Wars and the extremes of totalitarian ideologies that produce gulags and gas chambers. And at the close, we have the wars of "Caesarism" against the established elites of "modernity". In the wake of those extremes, "modernity" as a whole will be viewed with hate and disgust. Men will seek to leave it far behind. There will be deep distrust of abusive state power, which will linger in the culture for some time.

Second, in the wake of civilisational war, order can only be restored though legitimacy. Since all ideologies have debased themselves in the preceding carnage, and the core tenets of the "modern" age itself are completely discredited by then, the only source of meaninful legitimacy is the oldest and truest source: tradition. Because of this, the civil wars only end when a sufficiently capable and sufficiently traditionalist person seizes power. that person is the "Augustus". (This is why the person filling that rule is always a reactionary.) In the West, limited government is the traditional -- and therefore the most intrinsically legitimate -- mode of operation.

Third, democracy gets discredited as a part of "modernity". The Principate, therefore, will almost certainly introduce a decidedly non-democratic (and indeed effectively anti-democratic) system of societal and governmental organisation. And as you may be aware, there is literally nothing in human history that so powerfully speeds up the growth of government as the introduction of democracy. This was addressed in this thread by @Lord Sovereign, just yesterday. Therefore, the elimination of democracy will prevent government from "growing back" as rapidly as it could and certainly would do under a democratic regime.


...Now, as I said: I do actually agree with your thinking in the long run. Governments do, invariably, grow in scope. My point is that although this is inexorable trend over time, this does not mean it's a straight line up. You get peaks and valleys. You get periods where government is rolled back in size, for a time. As I mentioned, those periods of push-back are always temporary and do not buck the trend. However... some of them last for quite some time. And history provides ample evidence that the Principate of a civilisation is such a time of "governmental reduction". It is, in fact, the most effective and thorough and durable of these periods.

You know, this is a bit like Murphy's Law, which is often stated as "anything that can go wrong will go wrong for sure". Whereas in reality, the thesis is that anything that can go wrong will... given enough attempts... eventually go wrong for sure.

My approach to the iron law of governmental overreach is of a similar nature. Any government will, given sufficient time, expand its size to the maximum extent that its host society's economy permits. All attempts to roll this back in the face of catastrophe are temporary, and the trend is always for government to enlarge itself. Eventually, all governments exceed the capacity of their host (i.e. society) to sustain their swollen size, culminating in system collapse.

Yes. The implication is that all governments are inherently parasitical in nature, and always turn out to be a net drain of resources. In the long term(!), all arguments to the contrary are demonstrably false. All governments, with no exceptions in recorded history, ultimately turn out to be a massive (and indeed fatal) net burden upon the vitality of their host society.

As such, my most ardent long-term hope for humanity, bar none, is the utter extinction of all governments, forever. Regrettably, I see no avenues that will effect this result within the next few centuries-- let alone within my life-span. Bummer.

Anyway, I've gone off on a tangent. Back to the actual topic. The unstoppable growth of the scope of all governments ever. My point is not that the Principate magically stops this process, or is magically invulnerable to it. My point is that the Principate is one of the deep "valleys" in the graph. It doesn't negate the trend, but for the reasons outlined, it's a period in which the growth of government is very effectively hindered... for a time.

The Principate essentially undoes the excesses of the preceding three centuries. In certain ways (though certainly not in all!) it effectively rolls back the clock by 300 years. Which simply means that the Principate is uniquely suited to produce a relatively long-lasting period of "constrained government". The culture of the age is bitterly set against abusive all-powerful government. Its founding ruler ("Augustus") is, by definition, a traditionalist who hates the excesses of the preceding era (i.e. "modernity", an age of big government). And by resolutely rejecting democracy, the most powerful vector for rapid government expansion has been removed from play. The result of this is that the Principate is an age of constrained government, where all politics are essentially court politics.

This changes again once the (closely linked) economic and geo-political realities of a universal state catch up to us. That's when the mid-Imperial crisis erupts, which is invariably "solved" by a far more active government that begins interfering in all sorts of aspects of social and economic life again. That is the Dominate, and it usually terminates in the final Pyrrhic victory of the parasite that is government: it ends up killing its host civilisation, and thereby also kills itself.

And new life then feeds upon the corpse, allowing for the cycle to begin again.
 
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So let me get this straight: if the West would have its own Caesar like figure, does this mean that their Eastern counterparts would be either the new Parthia, or the new Mongol Empire?
 
This is true now, but imagine a population that has been dealing with ultra secular asshats fucking things up and just being massive assholes for 90 years in a row. Democracy? Democracy has been functionally dead for more then 50 years first with massive wide spread cheating and then with them going mask off and using brute force for close to 3 decades.

This finally collapses as people collectively have their fuck it moment they bring in some one to clean house and after generations of fuckery they bring in some one nasty to do it, and at that point it might be nessary that might be the only way to get this to fucking stop.

90 plus years of repressed anger hate and rage take off, because these are the people who fucked over your grandfather, father and you and now its payback time. It goes too far, and when its over all of the crazies are 6 feet under, and the survivors are just fucking tired of chaos and the people who bring it.

People at this point just want stability, they want to be left alone and want things to stop being on fire and in that environment strange shit happens.
Well what we're discussing is the the exact opposite of being "left alone". We're talking about forceful conversions under penalty of death or exile to an astrotuffed religion created for political purposes for people far removed from your culture and history. Now could demand for stability and security trump that? Sure, that's possible but its also possible that 90 years of boiled over rage at being oppressed will make them far more sensitive to it not less so.

Personally I think the generation after they reach the tipping point and things boil over would be the most fanatical. That only the "crazies" could emerge from that cauldron. The sort that would sit in a bombed out crater of a city and call it a victory because they are free from their chains. The sort that would happily let nukes fly at their enemies because being knocked back down to square one wouldn't be that much of a drop and thus don't have nearly as much to lose as their oppressors across the pond.
 
So let me get this straight: if the West would have its own Caesar like figure, does this mean that their Eastern counterparts would be either the new Parthia, or the new Mongol Empire?
@Skallagrim doesn't think Persia can build a great civilization anymore but I'm betting on a new Caliphate forming even if it looks more like the EU than the Umayyads. History also rhymes, and the "west" now borders both the Near East but also the far east, thanks to the west coasts of the US and Canada, so it won't map 1:1 with Roman or Greek history. China and India will be big players with Russia and Brazil as second tier great powers. All will team up with the others against each other.

As an aside, and to address a lot the above, I also don't think we'll see a universal empire of all western culture. It's clear to me the US and Europe are splitting, and that the average european has little in common with the average american and the US population is tired of the current protectorate dynamic it has with Europe. As the Europeans rebuild their militaries, and with the two taking different economic paths forward, I suspect the Europeans won't want to continue playing second fiddle and that in the medium term they will be rival poles (although will likely still back each other against the other, less democratic, poles.)
 
@Skallagrim doesn't think Persia can build a great civilization anymore but I'm betting on a new Caliphate forming even if it looks more like the EU than the Umayyads. History also rhymes, and the "west" now borders both the Near East but also the far east, thanks to the west coasts of the US and Canada, so it won't map 1:1 with Roman or Greek history. China and India will be big players with Russia and Brazil as second tier great powers. All will team up with the others against each other.

As an aside, and to address a lot the above, I also don't think we'll see a universal empire of all western culture. It's clear to me the US and Europe are splitting, and that the average european has little in common with the average american and the US population is tired of the current protectorate dynamic it has with Europe. As the Europeans rebuild their militaries, and with the two taking different economic paths forward, I suspect the Europeans won't want to continue playing second fiddle and that in the medium term they will be rival poles (although will likely still back each other against the other, less democratic, poles.)

I believe that republics or "democracies" as the media likes to call it in the west are living on borrowed time. I mean in many cases they are already closer to window dressing than being something legitimate. But in the long term I do believe western countries will more openly shift into dictatorships with strongman leaders.
 
Again the US being the most powerful nation, and others being allies sure that's possible. Hell that was the post ww2 world already. But those allies aren't going to accept their strongest "ally" dictating their internal religious policy. Making Catholics become Protestant, or making the Eastern Orthos in Russia become Catholic won't be accepted. Those nations France, or Russia would just ally with China instead.
Well I was envisioning something a little further than the post WW2 scenario. More like "allies" who in exchange for the Empire's protection have to tribute X percent of military age males to train and serve beneath the Imperial banner/ food products/military equipment ect.
We've already got that. The modern American empire already goes out of its way to enforce its wokeist state religion on its vassals, even when this is clearly counterproductive towards actual imperialism because they don't like or want it so it's just harming our reputation. Likewise, the empire uses the soldiers of its vassals as cannon fodder. None of the countries involved were in danger of being invaded by Iraqis before they were bombed into seeking refuge, they're objectively worse off than if they'd told the US to pound sand.
 
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I have no idea how this is expected to work, protestantism is kind of anti-clergy or at least anti-one church hierarchy and they are the most powerful from a military and economic standpoint (unless the US somehow breaks catholic.)
Of course.Protestantism was created by dudes who stealed Church property and gave it to rulers,making them all mini-super-popes.
There was no clergy there,only part of state cosplaing as ones.
 
We've already got that. The modern American empire already goes out of its way to enforce its wokeist state religion on its vassals, even when this is clearly counterproductive towards actual imperialism because they don't like or want it so it's just harming our reputation. Likewise, the empire uses the soldiers of its vassals as cannon fodder. None of the countries involved were in danger of being invaded by Iraqis before they were bombed into seeking refuge, they're objectively worse off than if they'd told the US to pound sand.
I would agree with you that the left wants/ is attempting build a universal empire. But that stops well short of public assassinations and most of it, like attempting to promote multiculturalism in the middle east , is mostly a waste of time and ceases to exist the nanosecond American blood and treasure is no longer there to prop it up.

As for your second point, that's more the US attempting to pretend it is acting as a concensus, basically the opposite of an empire , than imperial vassals.

Obviously the demand for, say, Nato members to meet their obligations wouldn't exist if what you said was true since a vessel would have no choice but to comply.

What I am describing is an "alliance" where France has to give up a certain percentage of military aged males who will then be trained to speak English, acknowledge the superiority of and fight beneath the American Eagle after swearing personal fealty to the President/Lord Protector.
 
Of course.Protestantism was created by dudes who stealed Church property and gave it to rulers,making them all mini-super-popes.
No it was created by people who were sick of the Catholic churches bullshit.
You are both right. The Catholic Church's power was decisively broken by an alliance between the Monarchs, meaning that Absolute Despotism could be viable from then on. It was from that time on that the idea of an autocracy went from an ideal to a reality for Western Christendom.

Of course, it also led to the rise of literacy and as such the rise of the Bourgeoisie/Burghers, who proceeded to become a bigger and scarier enemy for the Monarchs than the Catholic Church ever was. One that managed to bury the Monarchies of the entire planet for good, and give rise to the Res Publica as the dominant state structure on the planet.

This is why you shouldn't backstab your main partners to gain absolute power, people.
 
The Protestant Reformation had to be done, as the Catholic Church shot itself in the foot with the execution of Savonarola, as he could have actually tried to reform the Church from within, with his talk of renewing Christian culture and whatnot. Unfortunately, he was going up against one of the most corrupt Popes at that time, and when he tried to talk the talk too far, he was burnt at the stake.

In actuality, the Church holding a monopoly on wealth was going to become a major problem one way or another, and so the State was right to loot Church property in order to kickstart their own economic development. After all, why should the Church hold all the wealth in the community and keep their faithful as poor as possible? Simple: total control over their lives.
 
The Protestant Reformation had to be done, as the Catholic Church shot itself in the foot with the execution of Savonarola, as he could have actually tried to reform the Church from within, with his talk of renewing Christian culture and whatnot. Unfortunately, he was going up against one of the most corrupt Popes at that time, and when he tried to talk the talk too far, he was burnt at the stake.

In actuality, the Church holding a monopoly on wealth was going to become a major problem one way or another, and so the State was right to loot Church property in order to kickstart their own economic development. After all, why should the Church hold all the wealth in the community and keep their faithful as poor as possible? Simple: total control over their lives.
I’m no fan of the Catholics and it is true that the Protestants did have legitimate grievances against the Catholic Church even if the Protestants did go too far and into heresy. But the claim that when they looted the churches and monasteries it went to the people is laughable it went to the king, or at best rich local nobles.
 
No it was created by people who were sick of the Catholic churches bullshit.
Never forget that Rodrigo Borgia had not been in the ground for even twenty years when Luther hammered his theses up. The Catholic Church was not helping itself.

Speaking of not helping itself, everyone always whales on Henry VIII for his divorce with Rome, but what else was he meant to do? He needed a son to secure his line, Catherine of Aragon was too old to produce one by then, so he needed a younger wife. The Church had done that sort of stuff before but because Catherine’s nephew was Charles V they slammed the door shut at the Holy Roman Emperor’s command.

The Church all but elected to play politics with the future of the Tudor dynasty, after Henry had done quite a bit for Rome.
 
Never forget that Rodrigo Borgia had not been in the ground for even twenty years when Luther hammered his theses up. The Catholic Church was not helping itself.

Speaking of not helping itself, everyone always whales on Henry VIII for his divorce with Rome, but what else was he meant to do? He needed a son to secure his line, Catherine of Aragon was too old to produce one by then, so he needed a younger wife. The Church had done that sort of stuff before but because Catherine’s nephew was Charles V they slammed the door shut at the Holy Roman Emperor’s command.

The Church all but elected to play politics with the future of the Tudor dynasty, after Henry had done quite a bit for Rome.

Basically the burning of Jan Hus was the point of no return for the Catholic church.
 
People here are ignoring that Alexander VI (Rodrigo Borgia) was a noted reformer of the Church, and has gotten a bad rep because his enemies (who were far more corrupt that he was; Julius II owned seven brothels) wrote all the histories.

Also, anyone who defends Savonarola -- a pychopathic anti-life neo-gnostic who is currently burning in hell -- has strayed very far from the path of righteousness. A world without Savonarola (and indeed without any of the extremely harmful neo-Platonist crap that came from the fallen East and infected the West) would be far better off.

Now, to be clear: the Catholic Church at that time was very troubled and in dire need of reform, but Protestantism was just about the worst possible response. It was not a "reformation", it was a schism. And the West is still reeling from the disastrous effects of this schism. If Alexander VI had been free to not only get rid of Savonarola and his ilk earlier, but to also get rid of the utterly corrupt magnates that opposed all his reforms because he was a Spaniard... then there would have been no Reformation.
 
Now, to be clear: the Catholic Church at that time was very troubled and in dire need of reform, but Protestantism was just about the worst possible response. It was not a "reformation", it was a schism. And the West is still reeling from the disastrous effects of this schism. If Alexander VI had been free to not only get rid of Savonarola and his ilk earlier, but to also get rid of the utterly corrupt magnates that opposed all his reforms because he was a Spaniard... then there would have been no Reformation.

There was no way the entire Christian faith was going to remain under the direction of Rome. A Schism was always inevitably going to happen.
 
The Protestant Reformation had to be done
It wasn't done so much as it happened.

At any rate, the Reformation did begin the end of Christianity as a political force, followed by Christianity as a social force. It was a mistake of the Monarchs who thought they could use the Burghers to usurp the Catholic Church's power.
 
No it was created by people who were sick of the Catholic churches bullshit.
And replaced it with protestant bullshit? They do not create new christianity,they made christianity part of state.
Protestantism is not religion,at least not in Europe,but part of state from that times.

The Protestant Reformation had to be done, as the Catholic Church shot itself in the foot with the execution of Savonarola, as he could have actually tried to reform the Church from within, with his talk of renewing Christian culture and whatnot. Unfortunately, he was going up against one of the most corrupt Popes at that time, and when he tried to talk the talk too far, he was burnt at the stake.

In actuality, the Church holding a monopoly on wealth was going to become a major problem one way or another, and so the State was right to loot Church property in order to kickstart their own economic development. After all, why should the Church hold all the wealth in the community and keep their faithful as poor as possible? Simple: total control over their lives.
Poor victim of state education.
Savaranola was neo-gnostick,and his ideas would lead to gulags,like all gnostics.
And Church property served also those poor,making schools and hospitals.

You are supporting oligarchs who robbed not only Church,but also poor people.And,if they had right to robb Church,they have right to robb you - so do not complain,when it happen.
@SoliFortissimi ,monarchs indeed payed for Chrystianitas betreyal - they are now puppets of pagan oligarchs
 
There was no way the entire Christian faith was going to remain under the direction of Rome. A Schism was always inevitably going to happen.

I disagree with that assessment of the historical situation. In fact, even Martin Luther's initial actions did not make a schism outright inevitable. The notion that division (rather than reform) was the only possible outcome is completely deterministic (...which, I suppose, makes it valid to some Protestants...) and ignores the historical reality.

If we view it through the macro-historical lens (this being after all the thread for such things) we can in general terms observe that a great shake-up afflicts a civilisation at this juncture, due to pent-up frustrations over the calcified power structures that govern the predominant share of its socio-political functions. But we may also note that whether this leads to division or to reform is pretty much a toss-up. We have roughly equal examples of both outcomes, which suggests that they are equally plausible. The supposed deterministic mechanism governing the outcome is thereby disproven.

In the West specifically, I see no evidence that matters had to go in the direction of schism. The energies for reform were there, and indeed Luther himself initially aimed for reform over division. There had been previous clashes, to be sure, but none that could not have been papered over if adequate reforms were made in time. The core issue is that a number of genuine reformers within the Church were, for a variety of actually quite incidental reasons, maliciously opposed by political enemies. (Who, themselves, didn't even act out of genuine opposition to reform, but more out of personal malice and sheer opportunism.)



...What I objected to most particularly in my previous post, however, was the incredibly wrong-headed suggestion that Savonarola (of all people!) would be the man who could have reformed the Church. In reality, he was one of the most destructive figures of the age. And conversely, that Pope Alexander VI (who got rid of Savonarola) is painted as having been the bad guy, when in reality, he actually was a committed reformer!

Of course, the bizarre notion that the Church supposedly monopolised wealth is also deeply flawed. Yes, there was corruption and enrichment-- but that was almost entirely about allocation of funds. The Church didn't have a monopoly on wealth and power, and was in fact a pretty important check on state power. One of the most detrimental long-term effects of Protestantism is that it broke this check, and thereby dramatically unbalanced internal power within the political system of the West. Put very briefly: Protestantism is why political absolutism became a thing, among both Catholics and Protestants. It's because the checks and balances of the system had been destroyed. We're still living in the extended aftermath of that disaster.

Coming back to macro-history, this assessment is confirmed by the observation that civilisations which enact reform at this pertinent "hinge moment" are better off (in the subsequent era) than civilisations which fall to division instead. The latter category is inevitably faced with a protracted series of system-spanning wars, which the former category mostly manages to avoid. Hence my view that Protestantism has generally been a Bad Thing™, and that the alternative course of action for solving the (very real!) problems of the Catholic Church -- namely thorough reform -- would have been infinitely preferable.



Regardless of all these assessments, we must row with the oars we have been given. Those of us who are not insane or evil... or both... may find solace in the realisation that even the high cultures that (like ours) fall victim to the cruelties of civilisational schism are not doomed to permanent division. The schisms not only can be healed, but assuredly will be healed. As has been discussed in this thread, just recently. One reason why I am generally sympathetic towards the prospect of the Universal Empire, despite its evident flaws, is that it makes short work of such tasks.
 
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Poor victim of state education.
Savaranola was neo-gnostick,and his ideas would lead to gulags,like all gnostics.
And Church property served also those poor,making schools and hospitals.

You are supporting oligarchs who robbed not only Church,but also poor people.And,if they had right to robb Church,they have right to robb you - so do not complain,when it happen.
@SoliFortissimi ,monarchs indeed payed for Chrystianitas betreyal - they are now puppets of pagan oligarchs
And the current Catholic system is any better? And yet, that didn't translate into the creation of merchants and wealthy nobles, so yeah.

Church was already grabbing money from the faithful through tithes and taxes. What's your point?

And I will always reiterate this once again: there are no Catholic countries OUTSIDE Europe that has the same level of wealth and power as the Anglophone countries, or even East Asia for that matter, because the Catholic powers that colonized them only taught them how to work, and never taught them how to accumulate wealth. And why should the Church have all the wealth and the regular people not be allowed to be as rich as the Church? The USA is only able to fuck over Latin America because the latter is a motley collection of Catholic shitholes that were badly managed. The natives in Latin America were never taught the basics of finance and commerce, and my own ancestors in the Philippines were never taught those same subjects as well. What was worse for my own racial ancestors is that we had to rely on Chinese merchants as middle men for finance and commerce, instead of learning about them ourselves.

Savonarola's execution eventually led to Martin Luther and the other Protestants looting Church property to knock them down a peg or two. And so what if he was neo-Gnostic? His opponent was the infamous Pope Alexander VI, one of the most corrupt popes in all of European history.

In all honesty, the official slogan of the Catholic Church should be "we'll save your souls in exchange for destroying your racial and ethnic pride".
 

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