Battletech Welcome to the Jungle

Simonbob

Well-known member
Remember even in canon there were a lot of objections to the union, with the advantages far less obvious and some realistic reasoning for the LC not needing the Feds I can't imagine anything like the union going through, and that's before accounting for the increased objections from the Fed's side due to improved LC economy making their fears of the Lyrians taking over even worse.

The core reason for the FC was always "Let's end the Succession Wars", and for that, the Lyrans getting stronger will only help.

I'm not sure anything short of a serious war between the two Powers will derail Katrina and Hanse.
 

The Unicorn

Well-known member
The core reason for the FC was always "Let's end the Succession Wars",
No,that was the reason for a peace treaty and possibly even temporary military alliance. Going further requires:
1)The two nations to be relatively balanced to make a union of equals possible.
2)For it to be fairly obvious to the people in the upper ranks of both societies that they need the other.
3)For most people on both sides to consider the other to be about their equal.
Since none of those will be true, it won't go further than a peace agreement and possible alliance.

I'm not sure anything short of a serious war between the two Powers will derail Katrina and Hanse.
I really don't get why people are talking as if it's FC or nothing. Nothing we've seen so far will derail Katrina and Hanse's peace agreement, if anything it might make Marik respond more favorably to Katrina's peace proposal (although probably won't actually sign). It's just that I can't see Hanse proposing the sort of personal union he did in canon when the Feds would be obviously the junior partner (not that they were obviously junior then, but that they'd become so over time), nor Katrina accepting unless it was obvious the Feds were accepting the fact they were the junior partner.

If the clans show up on schedule there'd be a good chance FS and LC will be strong allies when they do, but I can't see any way for the FC to form.

On a different subject, since Weber mentioned trying to form a university on Catchan, and Katrina is looking for an obvious and public way to repay him for the Core, would her helping funding that and pushing various classified projects to Catchan be a way for her to do so?
 

PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
if anything it might make Marik respond more favorably to Katrina's peace proposal
Doubt it, it's more likely ''gib lostech'' will be added to the list of demands instead. However, it might mean that something like Concord of Kapetyn would come into existence sooner.

On a different subject, since Weber mentioned trying to form a university on Catchan, and Katrina is looking for an obvious and public way to repay him for the Core, would her helping funding that and pushing various classified projects to Catchan be a way for her to do so?
Helping to create an university on Catachan would be great way of supporting the young duke. Being an enclosed military system is being one advantage for classified research projects, but the problem is that it is far away from the other centers of learning, so there would be difficulties at attracting the top level talent on long term basis. Once the luster of Fundtech fades away Catachan won't be as desirable to the top brainiacs as it might be now, it's basically just one town, far away from everything, with punishing gravity, and if you step out of boundaries you get eaten by grue.
 

Lancelot

Well-known member
I really don't get why people are talking as if it's FC or nothing. Nothing we've seen so far will derail Katrina and Hanse's peace agreement, if anything it might make Marik respond more favorably to Katrina's peace proposal (although probably won't actually sign). It's just that I can't see Hanse proposing the sort of personal union he did in canon when the Feds would be obviously the junior partner (not that they were obviously junior then, but that they'd become so over time), nor Katrina accepting unless it was obvious the Feds were accepting the fact they were the junior partner.

If the clans show up on schedule there'd be a good chance FS and LC will be strong allies when they do, but I can't see any way for the FC to form.

On a different subject, since Weber mentioned trying to form a university on Catchan, and Katrina is looking for an obvious and public way to repay him for the Core, would her helping funding that and pushing various classified projects to Catchan be a way for her to do so?

The problem is there was no junior partner in the FC. There was a junior partner in their military and getting the LC up to FS level of average skill with take more then one generation. FC was equals LC vastly superior infrastructure, FS military is elite and not in the middle of having the officer core gutted. Even after that the LC military needs decades for the reforms to be set in stone and spread across the whole of the realm. Something the FS is more then capable of helping with.

If the people in charge of the title at the time weren't such unimaginative fuck ups they wouldn't have pull 'murder crazy sister out of fucking no where'. If they'd had any brains at all they would have kept the FC together with the clans making a new balance of power. Instead the fucking idiots failed, made that Dark Age shit, and drove their company into the ground. If the new company with the title, cat labs has any brains at all they'll retcon from 3050 to undue all the damage the last idiots did.
 

The Unicorn

Well-known member
Doubt it, it's more likely ''gib lostech'' will be added to the list of demands instead. However, it might mean that something like Concord of Kapetyn would come into existence sooner.
Point. That was a bit overly optimistic of me.

but the problem is that it is far away from the other centers of learning, so there would be difficulties at attracting the top level talent on long term basis.
Yah, that's why I was figuring something on the level of "Katrina sets it as her goal to make the university a success" would be needed.

The problem is there was no junior partner in the FC.
Exactly my point. In the new timeline there would be.
While the LC won't have the military might of the FS, they'll be on their way there and with a significant advantage in technology and even more of an advantage in economy and industry than in canon.

The LC will not need to join the FS, and if Hanse is the sort to require they join in order to agree to an alliance, Neither Katrina nor Melissa would have agreed.
 

Lancelot

Well-known member
Exactly my point. In the new timeline there would be.
While the LC won't have the military might of the FS, they'll be on their way there and with a significant advantage in technology and even more of an advantage in economy and industry than in canon.

The LC will not need to join the FS, and if Hanse is the sort to require they join in order to agree to an alliance, Neither Katrina nor Melissa would have agreed.

No that even close to that much has changed, also you are missing the entire gods damned point of becoming the FC.

First of all it'll be decades at least before the the massive reforms, the gutting of the officer core, and a total reconstitution of forces. As an example the LC don't have fighter wings, there isn't even a fucking CAG for there ASF, they just throw their ASF in massive understrength wings without an over all command or strategy.

Nevermind the out put of one world will take decades by itself to rearm the entire LC with what little overall Royal tech it has. Nevermind the BEST people to help them expand and improve that NAIS. But for a handful of rare officers the LC officer core will have to be rebuilt from scratch. All the advanced tech in the world is useless when you military fights like idiots, and are mostly trained to fight like idiots.

The first and most important reason the FC was made wasn't about war at all but because Katrina was trying to end it and only the Fox took her seriously. Both having lost loved one to this stupid war, even if indirectly for Katrina. It was Katrina that came up with the idea of the FC based on far more then who could kick ass best.

TL;DR
The LC has to basically change the doctrine of every aspect of their military, ASF, tanks, mechs, and troops it's a fucking mess. That and rebuilding their officer core is something that should take more then one generation. At this point advanced tech is a temporary stop gap that will slowly be closed by reverse engineering and theft if nothing else. Becoming the FC will massively decrease the time a doctrinal change over will take with the help of an elite officer core. Officer exchanges, and so on and so forth.

Also the LC don't have enough egg heads to understand and spread royal tech at anything but a crawl. The FS with it's NASI has everything already set up for top of the line R&D and has had it for years their not scrambling to put shit together.

The only thing that will change in the FC is that in canon some people in the LC thought the FS was looking down on their military. That is less likly to happen here.
 
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Detlef

Member
No that even close to that much has changed, also you are missing the entire gods damned point of becoming the FC.

First of all it'll be decades at least before the the massive reforms, the gutting of the officer core, and a total reconstitution of forces. As an example the LC don't have fighter wings, there isn't even a fucking CAG for there ASF, they just throw their ASF in massive understrength wings without an over all command or strategy.

That is a very pessimistic view.
Yes, there are the "social generals" but I assume that at mid level we can find quite a few capable officers. Not to mention that this is where Katrina is focussing her reforms.
And for the ASFs, well Richthofen produced quite some results. Fortunately for Katrina because ASFs were her weak spot. Not to mention the reports from Julia.
So I´d say 10-20 years before we can see real improvements. Not perfection but real improvements.
And yes, 10-20 years are "decades" too but farther down you were speaking about "more than one generation".

Prussia was decisively defeated by Napoleon in the battles of Jena and Auerstedt 1806. Commanded by generals following army doctrines 50+ years old. From the times of Frederick the Great.
Less than 10 years later a "different" Prussian army was fighting at Waterloo.
And quite a lot of their junior and mid level officers had been officers before 1806. And Bluecher for example was a Lieutenant General in 1806.

And yes, decisively defeated didn´t happen to the LC here. Different situation.
I simply wanted to point out that even a decisively defeated army contained more than enough capable officers to create a totally different army with different doctrines in less than 10 years.

Nevermind the out put of one world will take decades by itself to rearm the entire LC with what little overall Royal tech it has. Nevermind the BEST people to help them expand and improve that NAIS. But for a handful of rare officers the LC officer core will have to be rebuilt from scratch. All the advanced tech in the world is useless when you military fights like idiots, and are mostly trained to fight like idiots.

Isn´t that the reason why information from the data core was given by Katrina to pretty much all reliable Lyran military manufacturing companies? So that the Lyran Commonwealth wouldn´t have to rely on "the output of one world".
LC officer core see above.

The first and most important reason the FC was made wasn't about war at all but because Katrina was trying to end it and only the Fox took her seriously. Both having lost loved one to this stupid war, even if indirectly for Katrina. It was Katrina that came up with the idea of the FC based on far more then who could kick ass best.

Uhh, the creation of the Federated Commonwealth pretty much made war unavoidable.
It was directly responsible for the Concord of Kapteyn I believe?
If you want to avoid war don´t create the conditions for an inner sphere wide war?
Don´t unify your enemies? Try to keep them separated?
(You notice I didn´t even mention Comstar here?)

So....
A non aggression pact makes sense. When was the last time the LC and FS fought against each other?
A trade agreement would work too. Exchange of manufacturing licenses might work too.
Scientific cooperation.
Pretty much everything that stays below an official military alliance.

TL;DR
The LC has to basically change the doctrine of every aspect of their military, ASF, tanks, mechs, and troops it's a fucking mess. That and rebuilding their officer core is something that should take more then one generation. At this point advanced tech is a temporary stop gap that will slowly be closed by reverse engineering and theft if nothing else. Becoming the FC will massively decrease the time a doctrinal change over will take with the help of an elite officer core. Officer exchanges, and so on and so forth.

If the LCAF were a total "f*cking mess" then the Draconis Combine would have conquered them by now. They held their own against the Free Worlds League. Katrina served with tanks, infantry and Mechs. That´s where she concentrated her reforms. Julia and Richthofen probably will be her guides for ASF reforms and operations.

I totally agree that reforms will take time. I disagree that improvements will take one generation or longer.

Officer exchanges can help unless one side resents it.
By that I mean that Katrina quite simply has to push her reforms through on her own. You know Lyran reforms. Home made, not forced on them from the outside.
You try using foreign FS "elite" officers to force reforms and you will create resentment. It´s only human.

Also the LC don't have enough egg heads to understand and spread royal tech at anything but a crawl. The FS with it's NASI has everything already set up for top of the line R&D and has had it for years their not scrambling to put shit together.

Huh?
The Lyran Commonwealth is one of the most populous states of the inner sphere. The most wealthy state.
With the best economy. But somehow they have less "egg heads" than the FS?
Unlike the FS with their "golden five" planets?
Is education in the LC really that far behind the FS?
I sincerely doubt this.

The advantage of the FS is that they are more militarized. That makes creating a heavily protected and restricted research center like NAIS easier. Which also - without knowing - protects it more against Comstar sabotage and assassination.

Katrina has the Estates General to deal with. After all they helped her to unseat Allessandro Steiner.
What is restricting the First Prince in the Federated Suns? Not much.

The only thing that will change in the FC is that in canon some people in the LC thought the FS was looking down on their military. That is less likly to happen here.

You were saying:
- that rebuilding the LCAF officer core will take more than one generation
- that the LC has less egg heads than the FS so all research should be done by NAIS
- that changing the LCAF doctrines will take decades

Given all that why shouldn´t the FS look down on the LC military? You can´t have it both ways?
 

Lancelot

Well-known member
So I´d say 10-20 years before we can see real improvements. Not perfection but real improvements.
And yes, 10-20 years are "decades" too but farther down you were speaking about "more than one generation".

Real improvements are not the same as matching or even approaching the snakes or suns

Prussia was decisively defeated by Napoleon in the battles of Jena and Auerstedt 1806. Commanded by generals following army doctrines 50+ years old. From the times of Frederick the Great.
Less than 10 years later a "different" Prussian army was fighting at Waterloo.
And quite a lot of their junior and mid level officers had been officers before 1806. And Bluecher for example was a Lieutenant General in 1806.

Welcome to a massive difference in the scale those changes need to be made at.

Uhh, the creation of the Federated Commonwealth pretty much made war unavoidable.
It was directly responsible for the Concord of Kapteyn I believe?
If you want to avoid war don´t create the conditions for an inner sphere wide war?
Don´t unify your enemies? Try to keep them separated?
(You notice I didn´t even mention Comstar here?)

That is bullshit. Their already at war it's a constant stalemate, even with the Royaltech that is only a short term advantage until the other nations reverse engineering the tech themselves by theft or salvage.

The Lyran Commonwealth is one of the most populous states of the inner sphere. The most wealthy state.
With the best economy. But somehow they have less "egg heads" than the FS?
Unlike the FS with their "golden five" planets?
Is education in the LC really that far behind the FS?
I sincerely doubt this.

A world of difference between production and R&D. Different type of egg head.

Given all that why shouldn´t the FS look down on the LC military? You can´t have it both ways?

I not having it both ways read what I posted. The suns never looked down on the LC, the ones that may have thought so or used the idea against Katrina we're her Enemies and later as a part of that dumb ass fuck civil war her sister also thought so and never said anything.

If the LCAF were a total "f*cking mess" then the Draconis Combine would have conquered them by now. They held their own against the Free Worlds League. Katrina served with tanks, infantry and Mechs. That´s where she concentrated her reforms. Julia and Richthofen probably will be her guides for ASF reforms and operations.

They we're a mess because despite the massive number and resource advantage they were STILL losing worlds and had been for generations. Yes they see improvement, but reaching the level of suns and snakes will be the work of more then one generation.

Officer exchanges can help unless one side resents it.
By that I mean that Katrina quite simply has to push her reforms through on her own. You know Lyran reforms. Home made, not forced on them from the outside.
You try using foreign FS "elite" officers to force reforms and you will create resentment. It´s only human.

...Officer exchanges happened in canon what are you talking about? If the Fox and Katrina had any brains at all they were sending members of their nobility to each others best military schools.
 

Winter_Wind45

Well-known member
It was mostly about politics and the needed discussion of such for the government building for the story, and how that was required to be taken to whitehall and out of the creative forums.
 

Simonbob

Well-known member
Did the smooth brains on SB kill this story?

Short answer? No.

But only because he could keep going here.


To explain what happened, when his SI was talking about setting up his own Gov, one of the points was "Only those who pay a dollar more in tax than they get in welfare get to vote" and there were continual complaints from a bunch of fuckheads who just refused to shut up about it. "It doesn't work!", "It will just make people angry!", "It'll never work!".

Even when the Mods were called in, nothing happened, except the Mods, those SB scumbags, except Speaker getting told to avoid poiltics.


There's a reason I'd rather read anywhere other that SB. When that shithole finally dies, I'm going to find the servers, and piss on them.
 

PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
Did the smooth brains on SB kill this story?
No, there are always pauses of varying length between chapters. Now, can we keep the affairs of other forums in their appropriate subforum?

And honestly the ''offending'' chapter was really well balanced, showing us details that usually get glossed over, but not in an accountant spreadsheet mode, like some nitpickers might have done it [whistles innocently]. Right now Weber's Holdfast is a company town and he wants to turn it into a viable world, creating a society that will function beyond the life span of it's founder, which means more than just throwing people, money, lawyers and tech at the problems as they crop up.
 

The Unicorn

Well-known member
also you are missing the entire gods damned point of becoming the FC.
So what is the point of it?
As far as I can tell, the point in canon was "We must hang together or we shall surely hang separately".

First of all it'll be decades at least before the the massive reforms, the gutting of the officer core, and a total reconstitution of forces.
Partially true, but mostly wrong.
Yes, completing all the reforms will take decades, but that just makes it less likely that anyone in the LC would accept a joining because there'll be enough of a change to show the direction but it will be obvious that the change is on on-going process.

That means that even if the FS brings stuff to the table that the LC couldn't have done on their own (which might even be true) the VAST majority of both the movers and shakers, and the general population will see the changes as the FS taking credit for changes Katrina set in motion before the joining.
Nevermind the out put of one world
tHis is irrelevent. Weber didn't find a single planet with a bunch of losttech factories, he got a datacore with clear explanations on how to build and maintain such factories - they're already starting to build such factories all accross the nation, in 5 years you'll see some of those factories starting to produce more modern technology, in 7 years (when the canon FedCom accords were signed) it would be obvious that the LC was pulling ahead of everyone else.

The first and most important reason the FC was made wasn't about war at all but because Katrina was trying to end it and only the Fox took her seriously.
Wrong.
Again, if Hanse requires Mellissa to marry him before he agrees to a peace treaty that makes him no better than Marik, in fact that makes his response exactly the same as Marik's.
In canon Hanse agreed to a peace treaty without demanding Mellissa, and that much will remain the same. Katrina and Hanse may or may not go beyond that to a military alliance but there's no possibility of them going to the extreme of forming the FC as they did in canon.
The LC has to basically change the doctrine of every aspect of their military,
And they have already begun, and doing so a lot more effectively than in canon. More importantly, as we have seen from Weber's and Fredrieck Steiner's discussion the more effective of the LC generals reject the Davion doctorine, and are coming up with their own, quite effective doctorine instead. This will only accelerate with Weber as a duke and again, even if it's not as effective as the FS doctrine, an attempt to force them to change without demonstrating that (which will take time during which the LC will pull further ahead in terms of economy and technology and be closing the gap in terms of military) would end badly.
Also the LC don't have enough egg heads to understand and spread royal tech at anything but a crawl. The FS with it's NASI has everything already set up for top of the line R&D and has had it for years their not scrambling to put shit together.
You've got that backwards.
This is 3015, not 3025. Hanse is only just starting to create NAIS which the LC has a dozen copies of he Catchan datacore, and the additional information Weber's people have figured out over several years of trial and error. By the time NAIS is completed the LC will have several dozen similar research facilities already up and running.

Even when the Mods were called in, nothing happened, except the Mods, those SB scumbags, except Speaker getting told to avoid poiltics.
This was the issue. The arguments didn't seem to be a problem for the author, it was the mods telling the author that (what seems to be developing as) a major plotline in the story was something he should avoid mentioning in the story that made him stop posting on SB.
 

PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
This is 3015, not 3025. Hanse is only just starting to create NAIS which the LC has a dozen copies of he Catchan datacore, and the additional information Weber's people have figured out over several years of trial and error. By the time NAIS is completed the LC will have several dozen similar research facilities already up and running.
Datacores are not research centers. The point of NAIS is being well protected interdisciplinary research and educational center. pooling the intellectual resources from entire realm. There is no indication that LC is doing anything like that, they are simply handing out the few technologies that WW discovered to a handful of trusted manufacturers. And these technologies are only a fraction of what was lost during Succession Wars.

but there's no possibility of them going to the extreme of forming the FC as they did in canon.
That is yet to be seen, FoundTech is a big advantage the LC has, but it's not magic, so from in-universe perspective, FC would still be seen as a great idea.
 

The Unicorn

Well-known member
Datacores are not research centers.
No, but they are used to set one up. In this timeline the LC is setting up dozens of research centers before NAIS even exists.
The point of NAIS is being well protected interdisciplinary research and educational center.
nope. The point of NAIS, at least in 3016 was deriving military advantage from the 3000+very theoretical books he got from Halstead station. It was never intended as "interdisciplinary research and educational center" and by it's nature as a super secure facility would not be very effective as such if they tried to make it one.
There is no indication that LC is doing anything like that,
True, what they're doing is instead forming dozens of reserch station which cac share information, but because they're not concentrating all theri eggs into one, very vulneruble basket they don't need the insane level of security NAIS would involve because none of the research facilities the LC is setting up are likely targets for a nuke, or even a more conventional resource denial raid because even a successful attack only takes out one of dozens of stations. The actuall secure research will need to be secured of course, but there's no need for massive site security and project compartmentalization that canon Hanse needed (in this time line I doubt he'll repeat that mistake as he'd have the example from the LC on how to do it properly) which will make them much more effective as educational centers, and even more effective as research centers.

This is over and above the fact that the LC has a lot more resources and researchers than the Feds to start with, so even if they spent a smaller fraction of them on developing things the total amount of resources spend will be larger, and of course the huge difference between "Upwards of three thousand books and other materials" of random mostly theoretical material, and a data core designed to teach people how to maintain, operate and build factories needed, with lots of technical information and both theoretical underpinning and practical instructions and examples.

so from in-universe perspective, FC would still be seen as a great idea.
Nope. An alliance? Maybe, a merging? No way.
 

Simonbob

Well-known member
Nope. An alliance? Maybe, a merging? No way.
Ok.

I think you're over-doing it. Two nations who share a few values, and enough enemies to want to unite against them is quite reasonable. If that's just a treaty, OK. But, going further is still an option, after all, it might allow them to Win.


You see it as not happening at all. I think it's still an option. Numbers count, and so does comparitive advantage.
 

Lancelot

Well-known member
Wrong.
Again, if Hanse requires Mellissa to marry him before he agrees to a peace treaty that makes him no better than Marik, in fact that makes his response exactly the same as Marik's.
In canon Hanse agreed to a peace treaty without demanding Mellissa, and that much will remain the same. Katrina and Hanse may or may not go beyond that to a military alliance but there's no possibility of them going to the extreme of forming the FC as they did in canon.

Thankfully this is only your opinion. It is wrong but you have a right to it. I'm obvious not the only one to think so. It's also obvious that you have no intention of changing your mind no matter what you read so I'm done with this. Thankfully I don't think Speaker sees things as you do and that is all that matter in this story.
 

The Whispering Monk

Well-known member
Osaul
One possible butterfly effect that I haven't seen mentioned is the threat level enhancement the other realms will view the LC with.

I can easily see both the FWL and DC making preemptive strikes, LARGE ones, if they ever feel the balance of forces is going to favor the FWL in the future.
 

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