We need to restructure our economy.

Sailor.X

Cold War Veteran
Founder
I think this whole Covin disaster has shown the big gaping flaw in how our economy works. With us being locked down for a month or so we have busisnesses folding. It would seem how we had things set up was not resilient and we need to implement a change over the next few years. Maybe we need to back off from all the Globalism and instead think of more regional strategies. My suggestions would be this.

1: Decentralize manufacturing out of the major city areas. Cities have been shown to be a disease magnet. We need to spread more of our industry out into the nation as a whole. Aka move more of it into rural areas.

2: We need to set up a National Emergency supply depot system. This is so that when future disaster happen we already have supplies in place.

3: More Small scale companies doing what most of the Big Corporations had been doing This is to broaden our supply chain.

4: Bring back all foreign manufacturing. Companies either relocate back to the US or lose any tax perks the currently get. With a Tariff added on all their goods if they don't.

5: Set up a North and South America Economic sphere. The Americas need to have more trade between the two continents to lift up the standard of living in the whole hemisphere.

6: We need to have a National Journeyman program that trains ALL Students between the ages of 18 and 22 how to do a trade job. You can be a doctor or a lawyer. But for the first few years you will learn Plumbing or welding or Mechanic work etc. We need a multiskilled population.

These are just my suggestions what do you think should be added.
 
I agree with you on many of the fundamentals, but still, for the sake of argument, let me play Devil's Advocate here.

1: Decentralize manufacturing out of the major city areas. Cities have been shown to be a disease magnet. We need to spread more of our industry out into the nation as a whole. Aka move more of it into rural areas.

Moving production further from where the largest portions of the population are isn't a smart move, because it increases fossil fuel consumption to transport those goods long distances to the cities.

2: We need to set up a National Emergency supply depot system. This is so that when future disaster happen we already have supplies in place.

We already have a very big strategic stockpile. It's for emergencies where everything else has been exhausted and is only dipped into as a last resort.

That said, I agree, we should have an even bigger stockpile.

3: More Small scale companies doing what most of the Big Corporations had been doing This is to broaden our supply chain.

Too late. All our largest corporations are trusts that would make Standard Oil and Bell Telephone blush.

Can you imagine any politician with the balls to break up Google, Walmart, Apple, Amazon, Autodesk, or Microsoft? All of these companies rely on providing contiguous cloud ecosystems for any of their shit to work.

If Google was five different companies, which one would get Google Drive and how well would it be able to talk with the rest of their network? If Apple was broken up into twelve companies, which one would get iCloud and how would it work with the Store?

Internet infrastructure loves monopolies, and that's all because of the antiquated bullshit protocols that we use that take advantage of centralized hosting instead of peer-to-peer like IPFS.

4: Bring back all foreign manufacturing. Companies either relocate back to the US or lose any tax perks the currently get. With a Tariff added on all their goods if they don't.

Do you want $2000 smartphones? Because that's how you get $2000 smartphones. How can an American factory worker compete with a foreign one who does the same job for a fraction the wage?

Our system, for many many years, has been set up such that Americans go into debt to buy useless shit. The whole point of our system is to get Americans to rack up credit cards and pay interest on a brand new OLED 4K flatscreen TV. We need an actual wage to be able to afford all this stupid crap, so we specialized towards high-paying professional jobs and developed a massive service industry to shine the professionals' shoes, wash their dogs for them, babysit their children, and make them pizza.

If you bring back manufacturing to the US, everything will be incredibly expensive unless robots are doing it for free. See what happens whenever the minimum wage is raised? McDonald's starts contemplating touchscreen kiosks for ordering and burger machines to automatically assemble and dispense burgers. Raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour makes companies want to employ half as many people to compensate.

The cost of living is fucking ridiculous and rent and bills and groceries and everything are insane. If we deregulated and got rid of the minimum wage and let companies pay people $2 an hour to flip burgers, they wouldn't be able to make ends meet because everything is too goddamn expensive.

The real solution is worker's rights, more unionism, and avoiding letting corporations trample all over workers.

5: Set up a North and South America Economic sphere. The Americas need to have more trade between the two continents to lift up the standard of living in the whole hemisphere.

South and Central America is hell. Poverty, crime, violence, corruption, and narco-gangs from one end to the other. More trade with them would be nice, but we need to help them shore up their security first.

My own personal "Fuck China" plan would consist of the US Armed Forces joining hands with the Mexican government to wipe out the narcos and the coyotes and re-shoring much of our manufacturing to Mexico.

6: We need to have a National Journeyman program that trains ALL Students between the ages of 18 and 22 how to do a trade job. You can be a doctor or a lawyer. But for the first few years you will learn Plumbing or welding or Mechanic work etc. We need a multiskilled population.

To do that, you need a culture that doesn't make fun of blue-collar people or try to turn us into clowns to be pointed and laughed at. Everyone wants their kid to be the doctor or the lawyer or the manager or the bureaucrat simply to avoid the stigma of being anything else. We need more unionism and we need more of an appreciation for the Trades and for STEM, and it basically needs to be instilled with counter-propaganda that dignifies such work by presenting it as heroic rather than villainous.

If you think that sounds silly, I want you to do a quick little bit of mental arithmetic and figure out how many stories you've seen lately that feature hero scientists (you know, MacGyver or Doc Savage-type characters), and compare and contrast them to how many feature bureaucrats and lawyers and office workers as the heroes, with scientists as hunched Frankensteins with pipe-wrench-slinging thugs as their underlings.

We need a culture that encourages German-style apprenticeship and stops stigmatizing science and technology.

Don't forget to remove the H1B Visa program. Some Companies have replaced entire departments in America with cheaper H1B Visa workers.

Good luck with that. We won't have anyone to staff our labs.

I know! Let's take a bunch of San Francisco coders, waitresses, and janitors and stuff them in Los Alamos National Laboratory. We'll be able to get some real sciencin' done that way.

It's going to take decades to shift our education system around to the point where we have enough scientists to do that.

Tossing H1B overnight would improve our national security against certain people looking to steal our tech, sure, but it would also cripple the fuck out of us.
 
Last edited:
I agree with you on many of the fundamentals, but still, for the sake of argument, let me play Devil's Advocate here.



Moving production further from where the largest portions of the population are isn't a smart move, because it increases fossil fuel consumption to transport those goods long distances to the cities.



We already have a very big strategic stockpile. It's for emergencies where everything else has been exhausted and is only dipped into as a last resort.

That said, I agree, we should have an even bigger stockpile.



Too late. All our largest corporations are trusts that would make Standard Oil and Bell Telephone blush.

Can you imagine any politician with the balls to break up Google, Walmart, Apple, Amazon, Autodesk, or Microsoft? All of these companies rely on providing contiguous cloud ecosystems for any of their shit to work.

If Google was five different companies, which one would get Google Drive and how well would it be able to talk with the rest of their network? If Apple was broken up into twelve companies, which one would get iCloud and how would it work with the Store?

Internet infrastructure loves monopolies, and that's all because of the antiquated bullshit protocols that we use that take advantage of centralized hosting instead of peer-to-peer like IPFS.



Do you want $2000 smartphones? Because that's how you get $2000 smartphones. How can an American factory worker compete with a foreign one who does the same job for a fraction the wage?

Our system, for many many years, has been set up such that Americans go into debt to buy useless shit. The whole point of our system is to get Americans to rack up credit cards and pay interest on a brand new OLED 4K flatscreen TV. We need an actual wage to be able to afford all this stupid crap, so we specialized towards high-paying professional jobs and developed a massive service industry to shine the professionals' shoes, wash their dogs for them, babysit their children, and make them pizza.

If you bring back manufacturing to the US, everything will be incredibly expensive unless robots are doing it for free. See what happens whenever the minimum wage is raised? McDonald's starts contemplating touchscreen kiosks for ordering and burger machines to automatically assemble and dispense burgers. Raising the minimum wage from $15 an hour makes companies want to employ half as many people to compensate.

The cost of living is fucking ridiculous and rent and bills and groceries and everything are insane. If we deregulated and got rid of the minimum wage and let companies pay people $2 an hour to flip burgers, they wouldn't be able to make ends meet because everything is too goddamn expensive.

The real solution is worker's rights, more unionism, and avoiding letting corporations trample all over workers.



South and Central America is hell. Poverty, crime, violence, corruption, and narco-gangs from one end to the other. More trade with them would be nice, but we need to help them shore up their security first.

My own personal "Fuck China" plan would consist of the US Armed Forces joining hands with the Mexican government to wipe out the narcos and the coyotes and re-shoring much of our manufacturing to Mexico.



To do that, you need a culture that doesn't make fun of blue-collar people or try to turn us into clowns to be pointed and laughed at. Everyone wants their kid to be the doctor or the lawyer or the manager or the bureaucrat simply to avoid the stigma of being anything else. We need more unionism and we need more of an appreciation for the Trades and for STEM, and it basically needs to be instilled with counter-propaganda that dignifies such work by presenting it as heroic rather than villainous.

If you think that sounds silly, I want you to do a quick little bit of mental arithmetic and figure out how many stories you've seen lately that feature hero scientists (you know, MacGyver or Doc Savage-type characters), and compare and contrast them to how many feature bureaucrats and lawyers and office workers as the heroes, with scientists as hunched Frankensteins with pipe-wrench-slinging thugs as their underlings.

We need a culture that encourages German-style apprenticeship and stops stigmatizing science and technology.



Good luck with that. We won't have anyone to staff our labs.

I know! Let's take a bunch of San Francisco coders, waitresses, and janitors and stuff them in Los Alamos National Laboratory. We'll be able to get some real sciencin' done that way.

It's going to take decades to shift our education system around to the point where we have enough scientists to do that.

Tossing H1B overnight would improve our national security against certain people looking to steal our tech, sure, but it would also cripple the fuck out of us.

I agree with everything your saying, but this is never gonna happen, i dont think its ever going to get any better, as long as these corrupt politicians stay in power. And the average american keep being sheep.
 
I agree with you on many of the fundamentals, but still, for the sake of argument, let me play Devil's Advocate here.



Moving production further from where the largest portions of the population are isn't a smart move, because it increases fossil fuel consumption to transport those goods long distances to the cities.



We already have a very big strategic stockpile. It's for emergencies where everything else has been exhausted and is only dipped into as a last resort.

That said, I agree, we should have an even bigger stockpile.



Too late. All our largest corporations are trusts that would make Standard Oil and Bell Telephone blush.

Can you imagine any politician with the balls to break up Google, Walmart, Apple, Amazon, Autodesk, or Microsoft? All of these companies rely on providing contiguous cloud ecosystems for any of their shit to work.

If Google was five different companies, which one would get Google Drive and how well would it be able to talk with the rest of their network? If Apple was broken up into twelve companies, which one would get iCloud and how would it work with the Store?

Internet infrastructure loves monopolies, and that's all because of the antiquated bullshit protocols that we use that take advantage of centralized hosting instead of peer-to-peer like IPFS.



Do you want $2000 smartphones? Because that's how you get $2000 smartphones. How can an American factory worker compete with a foreign one who does the same job for a fraction the wage?

Our system, for many many years, has been set up such that Americans go into debt to buy useless shit. The whole point of our system is to get Americans to rack up credit cards and pay interest on a brand new OLED 4K flatscreen TV. We need an actual wage to be able to afford all this stupid crap, so we specialized towards high-paying professional jobs and developed a massive service industry to shine the professionals' shoes, wash their dogs for them, babysit their children, and make them pizza.

If you bring back manufacturing to the US, everything will be incredibly expensive unless robots are doing it for free. See what happens whenever the minimum wage is raised? McDonald's starts contemplating touchscreen kiosks for ordering and burger machines to automatically assemble and dispense burgers. Raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour makes companies want to employ half as many people to compensate.

The cost of living is fucking ridiculous and rent and bills and groceries and everything are insane. If we deregulated and got rid of the minimum wage and let companies pay people $2 an hour to flip burgers, they wouldn't be able to make ends meet because everything is too goddamn expensive.

The real solution is worker's rights, more unionism, and avoiding letting corporations trample all over workers.



South and Central America is hell. Poverty, crime, violence, corruption, and narco-gangs from one end to the other. More trade with them would be nice, but we need to help them shore up their security first.

My own personal "Fuck China" plan would consist of the US Armed Forces joining hands with the Mexican government to wipe out the narcos and the coyotes and re-shoring much of our manufacturing to Mexico.



To do that, you need a culture that doesn't make fun of blue-collar people or try to turn us into clowns to be pointed and laughed at. Everyone wants their kid to be the doctor or the lawyer or the manager or the bureaucrat simply to avoid the stigma of being anything else. We need more unionism and we need more of an appreciation for the Trades and for STEM, and it basically needs to be instilled with counter-propaganda that dignifies such work by presenting it as heroic rather than villainous.

If you think that sounds silly, I want you to do a quick little bit of mental arithmetic and figure out how many stories you've seen lately that feature hero scientists (you know, MacGyver or Doc Savage-type characters), and compare and contrast them to how many feature bureaucrats and lawyers and office workers as the heroes, with scientists as hunched Frankensteins with pipe-wrench-slinging thugs as their underlings.

We need a culture that encourages German-style apprenticeship and stops stigmatizing science and technology.



Good luck with that. We won't have anyone to staff our labs.

I know! Let's take a bunch of San Francisco coders, waitresses, and janitors and stuff them in Los Alamos National Laboratory. We'll be able to get some real sciencin' done that way.

It's going to take decades to shift our education system around to the point where we have enough scientists to do that.

Tossing H1B overnight would improve our national security against certain people looking to steal our tech, sure, but it would also cripple the fuck out of us.
Well played Devils Advocate.
 
Do you want $2000 smartphones? Because that's how you get $2000 smartphones.
Good, smartphones were a disaster for society. Too bad they wouldn't get so expensive though, price would go up perhaps 60-70% and Apple would have to change it's exploitative business plan.

Good luck with that. We won't have anyone to staff our labs.
Not bad, more than half of research is bullshit anyway, it is past time for some restructuring of the entire field.
 
All of this stuff would cause costs of various products to rise. I think that it would be worth it though. There are more important things in this world than being able to buy cheap products. This includes controlling our borders, protecting our workforce, maintaining our manufacturing ability, and keeping our children and grandchildren out from under China’s thumb.

I really do think that on the whole, these policies advocated by Sailor.X, LordsFire, and Brutus would be good for America and most Americans, it might make the filthy rich who profit from cheap goods and cheap labor slightly less rich, which means that they probably won’t happen.
 
Speaking of the economy your oil prices got fucked. It's at minus level prices.
For people like me who drive 90 miles a day for work............ We are doing the Irish Jig.

giphy.gif
 
Maybe this is when oil stocks could be beat at an absolute steal if someone does need to use it.
 
Low oil prices are advantageous in a lot of ways. Shipping requires oil, commuting requires oil, some people heat with oil, etc. If they let businesses reopen then the benefits of cheap oil would provide some economic boosts until our economy restabilizes.
 
I think this whole Covin disaster has shown the big gaping flaw in how our economy works. With us being locked down for a month or so we have busisnesses folding. It would seem how we had things set up was not resilient and we need to implement a change over the next few years. Maybe we need to back off from all the Globalism and instead think of more regional strategies. My suggestions would be this.

1: Decentralize manufacturing out of the major city areas. Cities have been shown to be a disease magnet. We need to spread more of our industry out into the nation as a whole. Aka move more of it into rural areas.

2: We need to set up a National Emergency supply depot system. This is so that when future disaster happen we already have supplies in place.

3: More Small scale companies doing what most of the Big Corporations had been doing This is to broaden our supply chain.

4: Bring back all foreign manufacturing. Companies either relocate back to the US or lose any tax perks the currently get. With a Tariff added on all their goods if they don't.

5: Set up a North and South America Economic sphere. The Americas need to have more trade between the two continents to lift up the standard of living in the whole hemisphere.

6: We need to have a National Journeyman program that trains ALL Students between the ages of 18 and 22 how to do a trade job. You can be a doctor or a lawyer. But for the first few years you will learn Plumbing or welding or Mechanic work etc. We need a multiskilled population.

These are just my suggestions what do you think should be added.
Ha! No. One of the ways central planning fails is by planning for the last problem. It's better for individuals to make decisions.

Specific problems:
1) Cities are a disease magnet. But they also are a innovation magnet. Allowing people to get together means a huge amount of innovation. It's the major way that GDP increases.
2) We have a supply depot, we just didn't refill it post H1N1. Because government is crappy at these things. A new one won't change this.
3) Small companies are already part of the supply chain. That makes them more vulnerable. Vertical integration actually makes supply chains more secure, because it provides total control over the product.
4) Bringing back Foreign companies isn't always a good idea, especially manufacturing. With China, sure. But with many other countries, free trade is a good idea, and makes things cheaper, which benefits everyone.
5) One thing I'm fine with. Probably best done by expanding NAFTA. But I think many countries wouldn't want to join.
6) This is the worst idea. You are wasting peoples time, just as much as plumbers being forced to learn law. In addition, forcing adults to join a journeyman program is morally wrong, as it's soft slavery, just like a draft. Adults choose. In addition, we aren't even facing a shortage of labor, so all of this extra knowledge would be wasted.
 
Ha! No. One of the ways central planning fails is by planning for the last problem. It's better for individuals to make decisions.

Specific problems:
1) Cities are a disease magnet. But they also are a innovation magnet. Allowing people to get together means a huge amount of innovation. It's the major way that GDP increases.
2) We have a supply depot, we just didn't refill it post H1N1. Because government is crappy at these things. A new one won't change this.
3) Small companies are already part of the supply chain. That makes them more vulnerable. Vertical integration actually makes supply chains more secure, because it provides total control over the product.
4) Bringing back Foreign companies isn't always a good idea, especially manufacturing. With China, sure. But with many other countries, free trade is a good idea, and makes things cheaper, which benefits everyone.
5) One thing I'm fine with. Probably best done by expanding NAFTA. But I think many countries wouldn't want to join.
6) This is the worst idea. You are wasting peoples time, just as much as plumbers being forced to learn law. In addition, forcing adults to join a journeyman program is morally wrong, as it's soft slavery, just like a draft. Adults choose. In addition, we aren't even facing a shortage of labor, so all of this extra knowledge would be wasted.
Point one. The internet has made that irrelevant. You don't need to be in close proximity to share ideas anymore.

Point Two: Nothing beats a failing like a trying. It is not a government problem it is a people put in charge of managing things problem. It is the same in the private and public sector in that regard.

Point Three: More competition makes prices not skyrocket. and the more competition the better.

Point four: Free trade is all well and good but some countries you should not trade with period because they are not honest actors and will always try to screw you.

Point 6: No we need people knowing how to do more than just one thing. Shoot for most of this countries history we had people knowing how to do more than just one thing and we prospered as a result. I care more about the nation being strong and the people being skilled than their feelings.
 
Last edited:
1: Decentralize manufacturing out of the major city areas. Cities have been shown to be a disease magnet. We need to spread more of our industry out into the nation as a whole. Aka move more of it into rural areas.
This has already been done. The problem is govoners are so quick to put their dictator briches on that they never stopped to think about applying different rules to urban vs rural.

6: We need to have a National Journeyman program that trains ALL Students between the ages of 18 and 22 how to do a trade job. You can be a doctor or a lawyer. But for the first few years you will learn Plumbing or welding or Mechanic work etc. We need a multiskilled population.
Allow people to default on student loans during bankruptcy would have the same effect with less work.
 
Point 6: No we need people knowing how to do more than just one thing. Shoot for most of this countries history we had people knowing how to do more than just one thing and we prospered as a result. I care more about the nation being strong and the people being skilled than their feelings.

I care more about being a free country than your desire to feel safer against catastrophe through controlling other people's lives.
 
Point one. The internet has made that irrelevant. You don't need to be in close proximity to share ideas anymore.

Point Two: Nothing beats a failing like a trying. It is not a government problem it is a people put in charge of managing things problem. It is the same in the private and public sector in that regard.

Point Three: More competition makes prices not skyrocket. and the more competition the better.

Point four: Free trade is all well and good but some countries you should not trade with period because they are not honest actors and will always try to screw you.

Point 6: No we need people knowing how to do more than just one thing. Shoot for most of this countries history we had people knowing how to do more than just one thing and we prospered as a result. I care more about the nation being strong and the people being skilled than their feelings.
1) Not really, ideas still flow better when meeting in person. In addition, you would have to use massive government force to stop cities, which is both immoral and infeasible.

2) Mismanagement is the usual result of massive government control. So, yes, it is a government problem.

3) That's not the reason you made your argument though. You claimed that small companies made supply chains less risky. I countered. Now you are changing the conversation entirely. Your original point was wrong.

4) That's a significant reduction of what you asked for initially, and one I'm fine with.

6) No, we demonstratably don't. We have an abundance of human capital, cross training gains next to nothing. And it's not feelings, it's individual rights you are trying to trample upon.
 
I care more about being a free country than your desire to feel safer against catastrophe through controlling other people's lives.
Then you are against the Selective Service then. Because that is compulsory. Being free does not mean you don't have a duty to your country. For some reason recent generations have lost sight of that fact. You have a duty not to be a burden to society. What good is a college degree when all you know how to really do is work at Starbucks. And we all know by now it is no longer a meme. But I will let this man say it better than I can.

 
Then you are against the Selective Service then. Because that is compulsory. Being free does not mean you don't have a duty to your country. For some reason recent generations have lost sight of that fact. You have a duty not to be a burden to society. What good is a college degree when all you know how to really do is work at Starbucks. And we all know by now it is no longer a meme. But I will let this man say it better than I can.

No I'm not against the Selective Service. Responsibilities go with freedom.

There's a difference though; military service directly contributes to the national defense directly, and is a measure exclusive to a time of active crisis.

You are talking about a program that may contribute to economic stability, would be compulsory for all citizens, and has no start or end period.

The comparison is not fit.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top