MMO Warframe - Ninjas play free

ShadowsOfParadox

Well-known member
Planned for it, probably not, took absolute advantage of it and had contingencies, absolutely. Remember, Ballas shows up, does, Something, and Lotus goes from being weirded out by him being there to smiling and going with him. The next time we see her she's Sentient again and saving Ballas. Why is a Sentient saving an Orokin at all? The Sentient do NOT need Ballas for, well, anything. Given what happened after, the only conclusion is that Ballas already had both of them mind controlled. That said, it's also true that his mind control isn't actually all that strong, so he needed the pet act for a bit to buy enough time to solidify it on Erra so he could kill Natah because he's a spoiled brat who has just enough self control to not ruin it for himself all the time.

And honestly, he might actually have planned for, if not exactly it, then something LIKE it as part of solidifying his mind control. Remember that bit where Ballas asks Teshin if the Tenno freeing Teshin of his oath makes up for their crimes? In the moment, that basically seems like Ballas expects Teshin to be fundamentally loyal to the Orokin Empire, which makes no sense, but then you get the Veil intro and suddenly it made all the sense, it was laying the ground work so the Veil didn't have to work so hard.

As for where Ballas got the mind control stuff, honestly, I have no idea, the closest that is to foreshadowed is that Ballas arranged for the Sentients to exist at all.
 

Doomsought

Well-known member
I enjoyed it a great deal.

as for ballas getting mind control, it is not like the neural sentry or Nyx do not exist. The veil is designed to overcome safeguards that protect against neural sentries while also satisfying Ballas's ego.

The whole points of erra allying with Ballas was to get the lotus into his hands. Afterwords the sentients tortured Ballas, but ballas is a manipulative fuck and managed to get control of Erra.

Eternalism allows each of the tenno to be the only tenno to remain behind as their alternate timeline self.

As for my choice, I chose Natah.
 

robertliguori

Active member
Planned for it, probably not, took absolute advantage of it and had contingencies, absolutely. Remember, Ballas shows up, does, Something, and Lotus goes from being weirded out by him being there to smiling and going with him. The next time we see her she's Sentient again and saving Ballas. Why is a Sentient saving an Orokin at all? The Sentient do NOT need Ballas for, well, anything. Given what happened after, the only conclusion is that Ballas already had both of them mind controlled. That said, it's also true that his mind control isn't actually all that strong, so he needed the pet act for a bit to buy enough time to solidify it on Erra so he could kill Natah because he's a spoiled brat who has just enough self control to not ruin it for himself all the time.

And honestly, he might actually have planned for, if not exactly it, then something LIKE it as part of solidifying his mind control. Remember that bit where Ballas asks Teshin if the Tenno freeing Teshin of his oath makes up for their crimes? In the moment, that basically seems like Ballas expects Teshin to be fundamentally loyal to the Orokin Empire, which makes no sense, but then you get the Veil intro and suddenly it made all the sense, it was laying the ground work so the Veil didn't have to work so hard.

As for where Ballas got the mind control stuff, honestly, I have no idea, the closest that is to foreshadowed is that Ballas arranged for the Sentients to exist at all.


Yeah, the story is telling us that Ballas can hack arbitrary Sentients, which puts his careful maneuvering to allow their creation into a new light. It also means that Ballas is now a master manipulator who has been orchestrating literally everything flawlessly up until this point. It makes you need to reconcile that level of mastery and self-control and willingness to sacrifice and self-abase with, well, what we got.

If a story wants to get away with a master manipulator who lies and deceives in all of their performances, then you need a way to either tell the reader who they really are, or you need for the reader to look back and realize the double-meanings in what was done. Ballas was monstrously arrogant, and then he was humbled, forced into a malformed body, literally collared and leashed. At no point do we see examination of this in New War. It's like the story forgets that there was a pre-NW Ballas wearing what he presumably considered the ideal body (since he was a high-ranking Orokin and could literally take his pick). Now, if Ballas was actually planning everything and planned to use his mind control mojo on all of the Sentients, and his entire reason for kicking off the Sacrifice arc was to get himself 'captured' and 'converted' by the Natah he already mind-controlled, we could get at least a lead into what we got, but we had no foreshadowing of that. At best, we had the possibility of him slipping the literal leash the Sentients had placed around his neck.

And, the more I think about it, the more I feel in agreement with the theory I read elsewhere, that the story was originally written with the third-act roles of Ballas and Erra swapped. Erra was supposed to be the big bad. Erra was the one we first saw fucking around with the Veil, and building heat on himself by killing Teshin (which, again, went nowhere and soured me hard on the quest as well). I can absolutely see the quest meaning to have us meet up with Ballas when we break into the sun-crusher, handing him the Paracesis, and engaging in actual retrospective about the parallels between him and Umbra before getting a very imperfect-but-deserved death that let you move forward.

And another point: What the fuck were the actual rank-and-file Sentients thinking during all of this? The great thing about the Sentients, in their previous lore, is that they are completely distinct from the other factions in that they are all individuals. The Grineer are commanded by the Queens, the Corpus by their Board and devotion to their ideals, the Infested have a hive-mind, and the Orokin of old mind-controlled everyone they could get their hands on in a variety of ways, but the Sentients were (pre-NW) immune to that control, and that is why they were a threat. Every Sentient you fight is a Sentient that is or was willing to terminate their own line and burn out their own capacity for reproduction in order to face a deadly foe, one which they believe will come for them on their new home.

If I were telling New War, I'd make it explicit that the Sentient were not really hierarchical, and that most of the invading Sentient, upon utterly wrecking the factions of the Origin System, decided that their original plan to fight at great struggle and sacrifice to Sol and all die in the process of killing the Origin system at its literal root was massively overkill, and not being the mindless monsters that the Orokin believed them to be, settle instead for setting up Narmer to ensure that nothing like the old Orokin empire could ever rise again. We'd see more interplay between Erra and Ballas, and make it clear that Erra was indeed using Ballas to help set it up and probably relying on his knowledge of void bullshit for part of it, and the point would be that while Ballas would be using Erra to set up his cult, Erra would be using Ballas to set up a stupid self-sabotaging cult that would fail, specifically so he could convince enough Sentients to fire up the sun-crusher and go back to Plan A, since containment had failed.

But regardless, I don't think that NW did it for me. I don't see how the interpretations of Ballas having control of Lotus from the start of Sacrifice onwards meshes either with his actions and words there, or with the fact that he could totally just take that Lotus, a few Orbiters' worth of space-cocaine, and ride off into the sunset with her, declaring general victory and letting the incoming Sentients burn everything to the ground. Hell, I don't know why he was doing what he was doing in the weird intro in the first place, other than "I must kill this person in front of this other person, because that is what the script says!"

Also, since the question was asked, I went with Margulis as my chosen name, since Natah's the persona who thought giving Ballas a sexy new ass was a great idea and exposure to Wally-bullshit has a bad, bad track record in terms of long-term mental stability based on us, Rell, and Grandpa Al. Margulis, conversely, liked the Tenno and thought keeping them around is a good idea, so I'll happily take that persona, and was delighted to get the opportunity to give Lotus back the helmet I'd been hanging onto for her.
 

ShadowsOfParadox

Well-known member
Yeah, the story is telling us that Ballas can hack arbitrary Sentients, which puts his careful maneuvering to allow their creation into a new light. It also means that Ballas is now a master manipulator who has been orchestrating literally everything flawlessly up until this point. It makes you need to reconcile that level of mastery and self-control and willingness to sacrifice and self-abase with, well, what we got.

If a story wants to get away with a master manipulator who lies and deceives in all of their performances, then you need a way to either tell the reader who they really are, or you need for the reader to look back and realize the double-meanings in what was done. Ballas was monstrously arrogant, and then he was humbled, forced into a malformed body, literally collared and leashed. At no point do we see examination of this in New War. It's like the story forgets that there was a pre-NW Ballas wearing what he presumably considered the ideal body (since he was a high-ranking Orokin and could literally take his pick). Now, if Ballas was actually planning everything and planned to use his mind control mojo on all of the Sentients, and his entire reason for kicking off the Sacrifice arc was to get himself 'captured' and 'converted' by the Natah he already mind-controlled, we could get at least a lead into what we got, but we had no foreshadowing of that. At best, we had the possibility of him slipping the literal leash the Sentients had placed around his neck.

And, the more I think about it, the more I feel in agreement with the theory I read elsewhere, that the story was originally written with the third-act roles of Ballas and Erra swapped. Erra was supposed to be the big bad. Erra was the one we first saw fucking around with the Veil, and building heat on himself by killing Teshin (which, again, went nowhere and soured me hard on the quest as well). I can absolutely see the quest meaning to have us meet up with Ballas when we break into the sun-crusher, handing him the Paracesis, and engaging in actual retrospective about the parallels between him and Umbra before getting a very imperfect-but-deserved death that let you move forward.

And another point: What the fuck were the actual rank-and-file Sentients thinking during all of this? The great thing about the Sentients, in their previous lore, is that they are completely distinct from the other factions in that they are all individuals. The Grineer are commanded by the Queens, the Corpus by their Board and devotion to their ideals, the Infested have a hive-mind, and the Orokin of old mind-controlled everyone they could get their hands on in a variety of ways, but the Sentients were (pre-NW) immune to that control, and that is why they were a threat. Every Sentient you fight is a Sentient that is or was willing to terminate their own line and burn out their own capacity for reproduction in order to face a deadly foe, one which they believe will come for them on their new home.

If I were telling New War, I'd make it explicit that the Sentient were not really hierarchical, and that most of the invading Sentient, upon utterly wrecking the factions of the Origin System, decided that their original plan to fight at great struggle and sacrifice to Sol and all die in the process of killing the Origin system at its literal root was massively overkill, and not being the mindless monsters that the Orokin believed them to be, settle instead for setting up Narmer to ensure that nothing like the old Orokin empire could ever rise again. We'd see more interplay between Erra and Ballas, and make it clear that Erra was indeed using Ballas to help set it up and probably relying on his knowledge of void bullshit for part of it, and the point would be that while Ballas would be using Erra to set up his cult, Erra would be using Ballas to set up a stupid self-sabotaging cult that would fail, specifically so he could convince enough Sentients to fire up the sun-crusher and go back to Plan A, since containment had failed.

But regardless, I don't think that NW did it for me. I don't see how the interpretations of Ballas having control of Lotus from the start of Sacrifice onwards meshes either with his actions and words there, or with the fact that he could totally just take that Lotus, a few Orbiters' worth of space-cocaine, and ride off into the sunset with her, declaring general victory and letting the incoming Sentients burn everything to the ground. Hell, I don't know why he was doing what he was doing in the weird intro in the first place, other than "I must kill this person in front of this other person, because that is what the script says!"

Also, since the question was asked, I went with Margulis as my chosen name, since Natah's the persona who thought giving Ballas a sexy new ass was a great idea and exposure to Wally-bullshit has a bad, bad track record in terms of long-term mental stability based on us, Rell, and Grandpa Al. Margulis, conversely, liked the Tenno and thought keeping them around is a good idea, so I'll happily take that persona, and was delighted to get the opportunity to give Lotus back the helmet I'd been hanging onto for her.
We see several points in the cinematics where Natah ALMOST breaks free, we see, during the quest, both Teshin and the Drifter go "fuck that" to the mind control, we ultimately see Erra break out of it too. Ballas outright says "I can only control all these people because they fundamentally WANT to be controlled." With that sort of backdrop I think it's easy to see why Ballas might need the pet play in order to actually get enough control to make his plan at all work. And then it does, and Ballas stops pretending, and, well, it's just such a relief to stop pretending he can't bear to go back to pretending. And then, at the end, we Veil him, and, in that, I think, we get to see exactly what Ballas is, and what Ballas is, is someone who can push and push and push, and given the slightest excuse will just stop. He's narcissistic, he has a god complex, and is obssessed with Tau, he's also probably the most tired thing we've ever seen.
 

Doomsought

Well-known member
We see several points in the cinematics where Natah ALMOST breaks free, we see, during the quest, both Teshin and the Drifter go "fuck that" to the mind control, we ultimately see Erra break out of it too. Ballas outright says "I can only control all these people because they fundamentally WANT to be controlled." With that sort of backdrop I think it's easy to see why Ballas might need the pet play in order to actually get enough control to make his plan at all work. And then it does, and Ballas stops pretending, and, well, it's just such a relief to stop pretending he can't bear to go back to pretending. And then, at the end, we Veil him, and, in that, I think, we get to see exactly what Ballas is, and what Ballas is, is someone who can push and push and push, and given the slightest excuse will just stop. He's narcissistic, he has a god complex, and is obssessed with Tau, he's also probably the most tired thing we've ever seen.
Also there are many forms of mind control in warframe, such as the ubiquitous neural sentires on Orokin towers. However if the target has taken steps to make themselves imune to the normal forms of mind control, you need to use methods that can beat those defenses but might have other flaws.
 

Urabrask Revealed

Let them go.
Founder
What the fuck were the actual rank-and-file Sentients thinking during all of this? The great thing about the Sentients, in their previous lore, is that they are completely distinct from the other factions in that they are all individuals.
Err, no. The rank-and-file sentients are shards from the named Sentients; Erra, Hunhow, and the mother. They have been explicitly stated to be unable to multiply because the Void sterilized their ability to create true descendants.
We see several points in the cinematics where Natah ALMOST breaks free,
also, a previous event, Scarlet Spear or some other, indicated that she was aware of what was going on and sent a encoded message during her announcements spelling "I AM DYING".
While I have chosen Lotus, I believe that all three of her personalities are present and capable of self-expressing themselves if they desired so. It would be a neat story-element where Natah would pipe in and explain the situation when dealing with Sentient events and forces, while Margulis would speak up if pre-collapse Orokin matters become relevant.

Of course, that's unlikely to come up in the game proper because it would require writing for three people where one is sufficient, but I like the whole "Shapeshifting to indicate who's speaking right now" deal the Tenno seem to have now.
 

robertliguori

Active member
Err, no. The rank-and-file sentients are shards from the named Sentients; Erra, Hunhow, and the mother. They have been explicitly stated to be unable to multiply because the Void sterilized their ability to create true descendants.

My understanding was that the Sentient could be presumed to make one trip and have their reproduction ability intact; the point of them was to send an adaptive, self-reproducing terraforming tool to do the work of making the Tau system inhabitable, but any more than that would be impossible. If any void travel sterilized the Sentients, then there would be no reason not to just ship over truckloads of regular, non-abomination mind-controlled slaves, since you'd be shipping everyone needed to do the work either way. The idea I got was that the Sentients would be trapped in Tau, since any void travel once they'd arrived would sterilize them, so they could neither return to threaten the Origin system or go on a rampant spread. But instead, most of the OG Sentients immediately turned around and fought the Old War, and the ones that remained behind built and adapted to Tau, and sent a second wave once they'd built it.

If the non-named Sentients are just discarded shards like the Vomulists, I don't see why there would be so many of them in the New War invasion fleet. And, again, their name sounds like the intent of them was that each of them was individually intelligent. But I do agree that the lore has changed and been tweaked in both facts and direction a few times in the many years it's been generated by DE.

Also, I have a wholly distinct and non-plot complaint about NW now; I've been running bounties hard enough to get my damn Furax Wraith entirely as a side effect of aya grind, and thus am incredibly non-enthused about running loads of high-level bounties to get the fancy new progression-gate resource solely as a random reward to build the bits I also get as rare rewards from same bounties.
 

Doomsought

Well-known member
also, a previous event, Scarlet Spear or some other, indicated that she was aware of what was going on and sent a encoded message during her announcements spelling "I AM DYING".
What was left of the Lotus/Natah during the wild hunt arch was described as an eidolon. Eidolons are fragments of dead sentients and Hunhow explicitely said that she was dead and we were trying to bring her back from the dead.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top