Universal Basic Income

Ok, so what do you mean by them coming out of the UBI?
I mean how much you get in UBI has the amount in welfare benefits deducted.

It kind of undermines your point to use smartass nicknames and the like.
I'm not being a smartass, she kills people.

So why not say "working class", instead of bringing up only one particular demographic group within the working class?
Because the white working class are the ones who've been left behind.

A tax on the tech industry isn't a VAT, and even if it was and they did pass that tax onto consumers, it's either going to hit such a massive part of society as to be unnoticable (like, imagine if everything amazon sold went up in price a cent or two. I think the working class can manage that), or hit people outside the working class entirely (facebook and youtube don't charge users anything, they charge advertisers).
Ah I didn't see that, it must be a change from his earlier plans.

Also, we haven't been invaded since around 1814, or maybe 1944 or if you count spies and sabotours as invaders. I'm fairly certain we're not giving any of those people money.
Yeah okay, meanwhile in reality we've got invaders on our borders and we're inviting terrorists both calling themselves "refugees", pull the other one.
 
I mean how much you get in UBI has the amount in welfare benefits deducted.

Ok, looking at his site, that doesn't quite seem to be the case. Where are you seeing otherwise.

I'm not being a smartass, she kills people.

Even I believed that, it's just a distraction from your core point to bring it up here. If you want to push conspiracy theories, make a thread for it. Otherwise, stay on topic.

Because the white working class are the ones who've been left behind.

That doesn't seem to be the case, white's are consistently enjoying a higher income than most other minorities, save for asians that are just barely outperforming them.

Yeah okay, meanwhile in reality we've got invaders on our borders and we're inviting terrorists both calling themselves "refugees", pull the other one.

Refugees, or even "refugees" are not invaders. At worst, they're just scammers and queue jumpers.
 
Well, yeah, I mentioned it in my post - you make the job more enjoyable/tolerable by mitigating the repetitive/miserable elements of it. Let me tell you, nothing is a bigger quality of life improvement than having some tedious task handle itself automatically.

Also, like I mentioned, a lot of times, automating things allows you to do things better than if humans were more involved in the process.

Speaking as someone who has done automation engineering, I don't see general autonomy as nearly so approachable a problem as big tech thinks it is. I also think that the structure of jobs which makes automation seem appealing is actually a cultural deficiency, not something inherent in modern work.

Well, here's the thing - I think society is just going to have to deal with it. Like, sure, there'll be companies that probably won't embrace automation as much as others, but consumers just want their stuff at prices they can afford. If you can automate production and distribution enough to drop the price of anything to dirt cheap levels, they won't give a damn about not having a six figure job.

Also, to be honest, most of the jobs with six plus figures are either ones that exist to deal with bureaucracy (which can be automated) and people or grossly overpaid due to sketchy logic regarding how much value a good corporate officer/creative person provides. Hard skills don't earn people as much money as they should, and those people with those skills could potentially see an increase in their value on the job market. That said, there are a few fields where hard skills do get people high pay, but that may be partially due to companies trying to deny competitors access to such valuable assets.

I think assuming the inevitability of automation is dangerous. It assumes that a society based on the optimisation of production is now fixed, and normative, and won't change. "moral economy" was, in fact, normative for most of human history, and the past two hundred years have been a very unusual interruption.
 
Generally, I think UBI is a pretty dumb idea that will be rapidly hijacked by social activists to expand various forms of entitlements. After a decade or two of lobbying, the benefits scheme will end up looking like the tax system, where an originally simple idea ballooned into a multitude of exceptions for various special interest groups. In the long term, all a UBI would do is raise the floor for something that would eventually look an awful lot like what we have now (but with more wealth redistribution, which for some reason I suspect would not come from the 0.1%).

It also seems quite premature to radically overhaul how we provide government benefits just in anticipation of a potential future challenge. When it comes to predicting how the economy will be impacted by technological advances in 10, 20, or 50 years, we generally do a pretty poor job. It would make a lot more sense to keep an eye on the situation and start with less disruptive reforms like job retraining or temporarily expanded unemployment insurance.

I think assuming the inevitability of automation is dangerous. It assumes that a society based on the optimization of production is now fixed, and normative, and won't change. "moral economy" was, in fact, normative for most of human history, and the past two hundred years have been a very unusual interruption.

Given our advancements in trade, communication and economic integration, is it really reasonable to expect that we'll return to a form of moral economy? Now that we've reached this point, I don't think we can unring that bell and return to a simpler system that relies on neighborly goodwill and small, tightly knit communities.
 
I'm a Third Positionist, which means I think it should go to OUR NATION and not internationalist traitors and invaders from outside our nation. We should be focusing exclusively on our own and damned the coastal and liberal elites.

Wat?

1) Most globalists fall into one of two camps. The first and hated are those who profit off it. That can range from corporations who have long supply chains with efficient price points to politicians who don't mind using American power under voter noses to make a few million. The second are those who think that it's the best for humanity.

2) The US 'invasion' is composed mostly of immigrants from Central and South America. That is certainly a situation that needs to be handled, especially before we go into the next recession, but I don't think it's helpful to just label them as invaders. That's a tad bit dehumanizing. Not in a serious discussion at least. In regards to the immigration issue, the US needs to do what it can to secure its border, break incentive programs that helps to draw immigration, spread information to counter coyotes, possibly build a smart wall, and once we've done all that--we need to work on improving Mexico and our neighbors. At least so we can stabilize the situation. And we need not send back all immigrants or immigrant children. Rather, we keep those that can best assimilate and remove the problems. Just too many illegals in the country to really get them all at this point. And really, the country could use a boost of Catholicism to help remove the stain of debauchery the leftists have put into our culture.

3) The coastal elites are not all bad. Certainly a fair few with their heads firmly wedged up their asses, but then we also have people who work at Starbucks, have pudgy bellies, pale white skin, and insist that women don't enjoy sex who are just as clueless and obnoxious. And many other forms of liberals, elite or not, who actually want to work with us. The Heartland is nothing without the coasts and the coasts become a shadow of their wealth and power without the Heartland.
 
the idea of never having to work with some douche bag who doesn't want to be there and makes every one elses life miserable is very appealing, expecially after a long day of working with my most obnoxious coworkers.
 
Given our advancements in trade, communication and economic integration, is it really reasonable to expect that we'll return to a form of moral economy? Now that we've reached this point, I don't think we can unring that bell and return to a simpler system that relies on neighborly goodwill and small, tightly knit communities.

I do. It's called a Dark Age. We've had several before, and as long as we continue on the course toward unmitigated climate change it seems quite possible we will actively destroy the foundations of our own interconnected world. If you subscribe to the notion of cycles in history, you would expect us to be undermining our own chances to avoid being subject to one--and that is exactly what we are doing. The mass construction of nuclear reactors in the 1970s, by strict scientific grounds only, could have easily headed the entire problem off.

Of course, we can look at it quite differently as well. For example, belter communities would be forced by the nature of their habitat in space to adopt a more community-centric mode of life. Harsh lives make harsh ways, as Herbert says; the dictates of one's environment are ironclad. We have been cheating ours like a sailor coming ashore with a year's pay from a run up to Baffinland to hunt seals. He'll have a very good time for a few nights, but the money is not being replaced as he burns through it, and it will be back to the dark, frozen sea soon enough.
 
The UBI has been spouted before, back in the 1930s it was called "Share Our Wealth", known by taglines like 'Every Man a King'.

... it was also spouted by a man who wasn't a Dixiecrat (i.e. believed that the line 'all men created equal' is genuine), was a genuine Christian, was essentially your standard 'by the bootstraps' success story, and dragged all of Lousiana into the modern age whether the population wanted to or not during his time as governor and senator.

It induced income and inheritance caps (although said income and inheritance caps were in the millions) and essentially gave money for a home (be house or apartment), a car, a radio, and enough money on the side for investment and goods.

The man who wanted it got assassinated for it...
 
The man who wanted it got assassinated for it...

No, Huey Long got assassinated by the son of a long time politician opponent, in the midst of attempted to undemocratic undemocratically oust said opponent from office. And given what he'd been up to beforehand, such as working as a senator while also taking, and I quote his oddly complimentary wiki page, "forceful and dictatorial action" in his home state via the yes man governor he'd put into power, forming a plainclothes police division that answered only to him, and ongoing attempts to seize control of the state's presses and local governments.....well, I have the sneaking suspicion that if you looked at all the reasons someone would want him dead, the whole "was well on the way forming the people's republic of Louisiana" thing would be far higher than his wealth redistribution schemes.
 
The UBI has been spouted before, back in the 1930s it was called "Share Our Wealth", known by taglines like 'Every Man a King'.

... it was also spouted by a man who wasn't a Dixiecrat (i.e. believed that the line 'all men created equal' is genuine), was a genuine Christian, was essentially your standard 'by the bootstraps' success story, and dragged all of Lousiana into the modern age whether the population wanted to or not during his time as governor and senator.

It induced income and inheritance caps (although said income and inheritance caps were in the millions) and essentially gave money for a home (be house or apartment), a car, a radio, and enough money on the side for investment and goods.

The man who wanted it got assassinated for it...

Huey Long was a dictator, that said he's far from the worst.
 
$1000 per month for being unemployed, sure it could pay for a bunch of living requirements, but it’d be sorta subsistence and you may not be able to afford to say, buy and play videogames or eat anything better than cheap canned goods

Anybody just satisfied with “only somewhat living” may have an effect on the economy in the longterm and in large numbers as buyers are needed for increasingly better and funner and unnecessary things as well as providing more jobs or reasons for industry to get bigger and maybe pay more
 
I'm generally leery of assuming too much of a correlation between what happens with mice and what happens with humans, particularly because we've, in part, replicated a lot of that experiment and the opposite has happened. First world countries enjoy abundant resources, food, water, etc, and birth rates are declining, not rising (also, we have the capacity to build and expand our living space, which those mice did not).

And while I do agree with you that the human soul craves meaning and purpose, I don't believe that the ultimate example of either is a paycheck.

Actually, the mice not having children was the problem with the mouse utopias: the mice are put in the "Utopia", there's an initial population explosion, but long before reaching the carrying capacity (traditional Malthusian prediction) the strain of the proximity alone (once again, no limiting factor but space, which even then wasn't that crowded) causes the societial collapse of the mice, who give up on the idea of having children and just clean themselves until they die from a lack of any drive or purpose.

From the linked article:

"So what exactly happened in Universe 25? Past day 315, population growth slowed. More than six hundred mice now lived in Universe 25, constantly rubbing shoulders on their way up and down the stairwells to eat, drink, and sleep. Mice found themselves born into a world that was more crowded every day, and there were far more mice than meaningful social roles. With more and more peers to defend against, males found it difficult and stressful to defend their territory, so they abandoned the activity. Normal social discourse within the mouse community broke down, and with it the ability of mice to form social bonds. The failures and dropouts congregated in large groups in the middle of the enclosure, their listless withdrawal occasionally interrupted by spasms and waves of pointless violence. The victims of these random attacks became attackers. Left on their own in nests subject to invasion, nursing females attacked their own young. Procreation slumped, infant abandonment and mortality soared. Lone females retreated to isolated nesting boxes on penthouse levels. Other males, a group Calhoun termed “the beautiful ones,” never sought sex and never fought—they just ate, slept, and groomed, wrapped in narcissistic introspection. Elsewhere, cannibalism, pansexualism, and violence became endemic. Mouse society had collapsed.

On day 560, a little more than eighteen months into the experiment, the population peaked at 2,200 mice and its growth ceased. A few mice survived past weaning until day six hundred, after which there were few pregnancies and no surviving young. As the population had ceased to regenerate itself, its path to extinction was clear. There would be no recovery, not even after numbers had dwindled back to those of the heady early days of the Universe. The mice had lost the capacity to rebuild their numbers—many of the mice that could still conceive, such as the “beautiful ones” and their secluded singleton female counterparts, had lost the social ability to do so. In a way, the creatures had ceased to be mice long before their death—a “first death,” as Calhoun put it, ruining their spirit and their society as thoroughly as the later “second death” of the physical body. "
 
Actually, the mice not having children was the problem with the mouse utopias: the mice are put in the "Utopia", there's an initial population explosion, but long before reaching the carrying capacity (traditional Malthusian prediction) the strain of the proximity alone (once again, no limiting factor but space, which even then wasn't that crowded) causes the societial collapse of the mice, who give up on the idea of having children and just clean themselves until they die from a lack of any drive or purpose.

True, but that environment doesn't seem to map very well to the average first world country, or even an atypical first world country like Japan, all of which have declining birth rates (not just slower population growth, actually shrinkage), which for the mice happened after their entire society collapsed. In the US, the birth rate has slowly declined since the baby boom, with the last peak in the early 90s. And say what you will about the 90s, but it certainly wasn't a total social collapse.
 
Huey Long was a dictator, that said he's far from the worst.
The thing was that Louisiana was complete and utter shit back then. It was so bad that Louisiana was shit poor despite the 1920s being in full swing. Outside of a handful of cities, no one was getting even a part of the prosperity. Given his morals and the fact that the situation was bad, he decided to get Louisiana into the prosperity come hell or high water. He helped kickstart that elementary books are free for kids, turned the shit roads into a functioning infrastructure, helped get the car culture in Louisiana, went full steam ahead on literacy programs for adults, improved voter turnout, with the occasional vanity project.

When the 1930s came around, he started the entire 'Share our Wealth' idea because it was morally and economically wrong for 'one man to take 9/10ths of a barbecue' (partial paraphrasing here)... and designed the Share our Wealth program to basically save the US from a possible communist revolution (while not as bad as the Gilded Age, the 1930s saw the potential for that reach somewhat scary levels).

Hell, when he was still the governor and was elected senator, he said that he'll let his term as governor expire (while putting one of his men in charge)... but his vice governor decided to pull an armyless coup over it.

... then Long got assassinated because of his political enemies and Louisiana suffered because of it.
 
Actually, the mice not having children was the problem with the mouse utopias: the mice are put in the "Utopia", there's an initial population explosion, but long before reaching the carrying capacity (traditional Malthusian prediction) the strain of the proximity alone (once again, no limiting factor but space, which even then wasn't that crowded) causes the societial collapse of the mice, who give up on the idea of having children and just clean themselves until they die from a lack of any drive or purpose.

From the linked article:

"So what exactly happened in Universe 25? Past day 315, population growth slowed. More than six hundred mice now lived in Universe 25, constantly rubbing shoulders on their way up and down the stairwells to eat, drink, and sleep. Mice found themselves born into a world that was more crowded every day, and there were far more mice than meaningful social roles. With more and more peers to defend against, males found it difficult and stressful to defend their territory, so they abandoned the activity. Normal social discourse within the mouse community broke down, and with it the ability of mice to form social bonds. The failures and dropouts congregated in large groups in the middle of the enclosure, their listless withdrawal occasionally interrupted by spasms and waves of pointless violence. The victims of these random attacks became attackers. Left on their own in nests subject to invasion, nursing females attacked their own young. Procreation slumped, infant abandonment and mortality soared. Lone females retreated to isolated nesting boxes on penthouse levels. Other males, a group Calhoun termed “the beautiful ones,” never sought sex and never fought—they just ate, slept, and groomed, wrapped in narcissistic introspection. Elsewhere, cannibalism, pansexualism, and violence became endemic. Mouse society had collapsed.

On day 560, a little more than eighteen months into the experiment, the population peaked at 2,200 mice and its growth ceased. A few mice survived past weaning until day six hundred, after which there were few pregnancies and no surviving young. As the population had ceased to regenerate itself, its path to extinction was clear. There would be no recovery, not even after numbers had dwindled back to those of the heady early days of the Universe. The mice had lost the capacity to rebuild their numbers—many of the mice that could still conceive, such as the “beautiful ones” and their secluded singleton female counterparts, had lost the social ability to do so. In a way, the creatures had ceased to be mice long before their death—a “first death,” as Calhoun put it, ruining their spirit and their society as thoroughly as the later “second death” of the physical body. "
So if this is applicable to human societies and not just to mice (which is highly, highly suspect due to the fact that mice are creatures that lack higher brain functions and humans... well, aren't), how exactly do you plan to prevent the eventual extinction of humanity? Because bearing in mind the propensity for advancing technology to create material abundance, the fact that human nature drives people to seek a better life for themselves and their children (as seen in East Germany which despite having a communist culture still had people trying to flee over the Berlin wall to West Germany), and natural human aggression that leads to societies attempting to exploit other societies that limit themselves or otherwise are reduced in some capacity (see colonialism and slavery). How exactly do you plan on creating a stable society that both will not fail due to material abundance and not be conquered militarily, culturally, or economically by those that will?
 
True, but that environment doesn't seem to map very well to the average first world country, or even an atypical first world country like Japan, all of which have declining birth rates (not just slower population growth, actually shrinkage), which for the mice happened after their entire society collapsed. In the US, the birth rate has slowly declined since the baby boom, with the last peak in the early 90s. And say what you will about the 90s, but it certainly wasn't a total social collapse.

Well, the US isn't one city. So, duh it doesn't follow the mouse Utopia exactly. People can also notice decline, and do something about it. For example, look at US crime rate:

ucr-national-2017.png


If you looked at Crime rate and extrapolated a trend line from, say, 1960 to 1970, you'd be looking at something that would look apocalyptic, well, at least for cities. Certainly, one would not look at major urban areas in 1970 and think you were looking at a healthy society. The cities themselves were suffering dramatic population collapses in the 70s as well: New York city lost 10% of its population, Detroit lost 20% its population, Chicago lost 10%, excetera. Every city in the top 10 largest cities of 1970 which wasn't in Texas or Los Angeles suffered huge, 10-20% population declines.

By 70s trend lines, by 2000 you would expect the murder rate in a big city to be 50 per 100,000, and the population of New York City to have shrunk by 30%. However, humans aren't mice and can, well, generally predict the future in a basic way and try to do something about it. "Law and Order" became the election theme of every major presidential candidate from Nixon onward. New York bits its tongue and elected its first full blown republican Mayor since the Depression with Gilliani because they decided they didn't like their city being associated with slums, crushing poverty, and a generally awful helscape people escaped from.

EscapefromNYposter.jpg


(New York being a distopiatic hell hole by 1997 was a bit more plausible in 1980 than it is now, but only in large part because new york decided it didn't want to be a distopiatic hell hole: places like Detroit for example proved incapable of resisting their decline).

The other big take away from the graph above, beside humans being able to chose to change the direction of things, is that relatively few have lived in Mouse Utopia like conditions, at least in the US, as a share of overall population: for example, looking at the 1970s census data, there were about 200 million people in the US. Cities there were 56 cities with over 250,000 people in them. As a rough eyeball gestimate, without adding them all up, it seems a reasonable estimate that about 50 million people lived in those cities in 1970, before the massive population declines of that decade in many of the larger ones.

Thus, only about 25% of the population even lived in "big" cities. Counting just the 10 biggest cities in the US in 1970, they collectively had 22 million, or about 11% of the population. If you knock off the more sprawling cities, like Dallas, and focus only on "dense" cities, your down to about 10 million people, or about 5% of the population.

So, in the 70s, full fledged mouse utopia conditions applied to maybe 5-10% of the population, and even there people weren't literally imprisoned in New York or Chicago, considering the shear number that left. The world so far has been big enough to allow people to escape from such an unhealthy area most of the time, instead of just fully degenerating. And the areas of degeneration when urban areas decay has been relatively limited enough historically that, say, New Yorkers going crazy in the 70s doesn't pull the whole nation into crazyness. New York can self destruct without destroying the nation.

Does that make sense?
 

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