Middle East Trump makes way for Turkey operation against Kurds in Syria

I feel a bit conflicted. I have always thought that we should have stayed out of Syria and that all of our activity there has been wrong and counterproductive. So getting out of Syria has always been high on my list of priorities for US foreign policy.

Though I hate the idea of, yet again, hanging the Kurds out to dry. Especially when it comes off as being scared of Turkey. It’s one of the myriad problems that arise from foolish foreign interventions and the poor Kurds, who have fought with us time and time again, end up being abandoned by us at the most inopportune time. It’s a situation with no good solution really.

I blame Obama more than Trump though.
 
Bacle said:
And in case anyone thinks Trump will just let the Kurds hang:


Turkey is on notice that if they cross certain lines, their economy will get devastated. This is far more effective at getting Turkey to hold back, and doesn't require American troops in Syria indefinitely.
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"I've done before"

Ooooooo, what did Trump do to Turkey's economy before?
 
Erwin_Pommel said:
"I've done before"

Ooooooo, what did Trump do to Turkey's economy before?
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Well, he refused to sell them F-35s and Turkey had/has sub-assembly production lines for certain parts of the plane that are now a wasted investment.

Not sure what else, but it's not like Turkey's had a a great economy for a while.
 
ShieldWife said:
I feel a bit conflicted. I have always thought that we should have stayed out of Syria and that all of our activity there has been wrong and counterproductive. So getting out of Syria has always been high on my list of priorities for US foreign policy.

Though I hate the idea of, yet again, hanging the Kurds out to dry. Especially when it comes off as being scared of Turkey. It’s one of the myriad problems that arise from foolish foreign interventions and the poor Kurds, who have fought with us time and time again, end up being abandoned by us at the most inopportune time. It’s a situation with no good solution really.

I blame Obama more than Trump though.
Click to expand...

To me it creates a moral obligation to the Kurds which I would rather not we have; I would have preferred to settle the matter by getting them their independence and moving on. But it's the same way with the Montagnards who we basely betrayed in Vietnam; I do support their immigration to the United States because we betrayed during our withdrawal from south Vietnam a stalwart people who fought at our side to the bitter end. Now we've done the same, except to a much larger and Muslim population.

To those who say "nations have interests", I say: The first interest of a nation is to have a reputation for probity in our dealings with peoples. As Frederick the Great observed, it is necessary to have a reputation for probity so that none pays heed when, from time to time, it is necessary to break it. We have used up the good will, we did long ago, and now we come across as two-faced and untrustworthy.
 
StormEagle said:
What do people want us to do here, shoot at the Turks? They’re NATO allies, and strategically important. The Kurds are neither. Makes the political calculation rather simple to my mind.
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Expel Turkey from NATO as the very minimal step. The US has allowed Erdogan's Turkey to get away with all kinds of ridiculous shit over the last decade. What are you waiting for? What will it take? A wholesale Kurdish genocide? An active war with Greece? (Not that anyone ever gave a fuck about Turkey randomly nabbing half of Cyprus, so probably not).
 
GoldRanger said:
Yawn. America is an unreliable ally, old news.
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It's one of the damn frustrating consequences of having which party (and ideology) is in charge of foreign policy ever 4 or 8 years, 12 if we're lucky.

It absolutely infuriates me, but about the only thing any given individual can do to change it (more than casting their single vote and trying to persuade other individuals of their beliefs), is either try to get elected president themselves, or get enough control of a large enough media platform, to have a shot at swaying large portions of the culture.
 
... I really think people need to be looking deeper into this stuff, like, I did a super basic search over this and nice early result was this
www.nytimes.com

Trump Threatens to ‘Devastate Turkey Economically’ if It Attacks Kurds (Published 2019)

In tweets, the president threatened the NATO ally and seemed to offer a blanket of protection for a band of American-backed militias in Syria after U.S. forces leave.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com
from JANUARY. and I dunno bout you guys but I haven't heard anything suggesting he's been getting lighter on his opinion about Turkey attacking the Kurds.

So frankly, I say "get the troops out and deploy some of those alternate means of influence already". If Turkey decides to mess with the Kurds anyway THEN we can maybe think about some sort of military thing or kicking Turkey out of NATO etc.
 
Captain-General said:
To me it creates a moral obligation to the Kurds which I would rather not we have; I would have preferred to settle the matter by getting them their independence and moving on. But it's the same way with the Montagnards who we basely betrayed in Vietnam; I do support their immigration to the United States because we betrayed during our withdrawal from south Vietnam a stalwart people who fought at our side to the bitter end. Now we've done the same, except to a much larger and Muslim population.

To those who say "nations have interests", I say: The first interest of a nation is to have a reputation for probity in our dealings with peoples. As Frederick the Great observed, it is necessary to have a reputation for probity so that none pays heed when, from time to time, it is necessary to break it. We have used up the good will, we did long ago, and now we come across as two-faced and untrustworthy.
Click to expand...
Fred the Great lived in pre-nuke times, and nukes massively changed the equations geo-politics relies on.

There are 50 B-61 nukes at Incirlik; what do you think will happen to them and the American personnel at that base if we get into a shooting war with Turkey?

Also, you seem to be ignoring the facts on the ground, such as the restricted air space over the Kurds, Trump's tweets about using economic leverage to keep Turkey in line, and Trumps history of supporting the Kurds against Turkey. The Kurds are not helpless babes, Trump isn't throwing them under the bus, and Turkey cannot seriously go after them without serious repercussions they cannot afford, and to top it all of, we would have to be in Syria indefinitely to accomplish what you want.

Also, we have an actual treaty with Turkey, we don't with the Kurds, and honoring an on paper treaty would seem to have more probity than whatever agreements have been made with the Kurds.

Do I wish Turkey was out of NATO? Hell yes. Do I wish we could have helped establish an actual Kurdish state years ago? Most definitely. Do I wish Trump had made a different decision here, now that the facts (not just spun news headlines) are coming out? NO. Trump made the best call in a shit situation, and you need to stop acting as if he drove a knife into the Kurds back by removing a few US troops from their fighting positions.
ShadowsOfParadox said:
... I really think people need to be looking deeper into this stuff, like, I did a super basic search over this and nice early result was this
www.nytimes.com

Trump Threatens to ‘Devastate Turkey Economically’ if It Attacks Kurds (Published 2019)

In tweets, the president threatened the NATO ally and seemed to offer a blanket of protection for a band of American-backed militias in Syria after U.S. forces leave.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com
from JANUARY. and I dunno bout you guys but I haven't heard anything suggesting he's been getting lighter on his opinion about Turkey attacking the Kurds.

So frankly, I say "get the troops out and deploy some of those alternate means of influence already". If Turkey decides to mess with the Kurds anyway THEN we can maybe think about some sort of military thing or kicking Turkey out of NATO etc.
Click to expand...
Precisely.
 
Captain-General said:
To me it creates a moral obligation to the Kurds which I would rather not we have; I would have preferred to settle the matter by getting them their independence and moving on. But it's the same way with the Montagnards who we basely betrayed in Vietnam; I do support their immigration to the United States because we betrayed during our withdrawal from south Vietnam a stalwart people who fought at our side to the bitter end. Now we've done the same, except to a much larger and Muslim population.

To those who say "nations have interests", I say: The first interest of a nation is to have a reputation for probity in our dealings with peoples. As Frederick the Great observed, it is necessary to have a reputation for probity so that none pays heed when, from time to time, it is necessary to break it. We have used up the good will, we did long ago, and now we come across as two-faced and untrustworthy.
Click to expand...
I understand the idea, but i don't see how it applies in this situation. The Vietnam example is better, at least the group in question was threatened by US enemies that they have fought together against, making it a straight and simple situation, same conflict, same side. In case of Kurds, it's a separate and messy allies vs allies situation. They didn't like each other before the Syria kerfuffle, of course as that's dying down this history comes back.

So, in terms of dealing with people honorably and paying one's debts, what massive favor did Kurds do for USA to be owed a massive favor in return, along the lines of winning them a nasty war of independence and dropping a major NATO member?
All they did was cooperate with US forces in Syria and Iraq (that didn't really need to fight there anyway at all, in itself it was a favor to local populations not wanting to get brutalized by crazy islamists) in fight against ISIL (which the Kurds were doing anyway, for own survival).
One could reasonably argue that the Kurds would deserve a small favor for that, but even with a lot of generosity, the matter here is of a greater order of magnitude than that.
If anything, i would argue Iraqis and Syrians have a greater debt to them, and also happen to be in a position to pay it in ways that the Kurds would be very interested in being paid.
 
PsihoKekec said:
Aren't they supposed to be moved to base in Greece by the next year?
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Well, the impertinent part of me wants to answer "if they were still there, it would make defending the airbase a lot easier".

In reality, withdrawing the nukes would be the first step in escalation because it removes Turkey from our nuclear umbrella and no longer lets them negotiate with Russia in confidence.
 
Well, the Turks are attacking en masse, with heavy civilian casualties and massive destruction throughout Rojava. To reinforce their defences the Kurds have been forced to transfer their prison guard units to the front, which will allow 12,000+ imprisoned ISIL fighters to escape as well as some 50,000 radically indoctrinated family members thereof. This attack being allowed to proceed may have just recreated ISIL in a single afternoon.
 
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