Transgenders and TERFs

[ShadowArxxy]

Biden’s trans order undoes decades of feminist progress

The Biden presidency, we’re told, is a historic win for women. With Kamala Harris as his Madam Vice President and a record number of women in his Cabinet, the new commander in chief is advancing th…

nypost.com

Boo hoo.

TERFs will always yell and scream at the slightest hint of civil rights for trans women. That's been an integral element of their hate-filled chorus since the beginning of third-wave "radical feminism". TERF ideology literally posits that the *mere existence* of trans women is "philosophically equivalent to murder and cannibalism" and that trans women should not be permitted to exist.

They even tried to talk the United Nations into declaring medical treatment for trans women an international human rights violation -- as in send blue-helmets to stop any country that allowed trans women to have medical care.

 

[Arch Dornan]

TERFs will always yell and scream at the slightest hint of civil rights for trans women. That's been an integral element of their hate-filled chorus since the beginning of third-wave "radical feminism". TERF ideology literally posits that the *mere existence* of trans women is "philosophically equivalent to murder and cannibalism" and that trans women should not be permitted to exist.

They even tried to talk the United Nations into declaring medical treatment for trans women an international human rights violation -- as in send blue-helmets to stop any country that allowed trans women to have medical care.

Doesn't surprise me in the least. I stand by what I said. Go bitch and complain.

 

[Arch Dornan]

Does this lead to more women like Serena Williams get beaten once again and go on a bigger meltdown? At least I get something more to laugh at.

 

[Cherico]

TERFs will always yell and scream at the slightest hint of civil rights for trans women. That's been an integral element of their hate-filled chorus since the beginning of third-wave "radical feminism". TERF ideology literally posits that the *mere existence* of trans women is "philosophically equivalent to murder and cannibalism" and that trans women should not be permitted to exist.

They even tried to talk the United Nations into declaring medical treatment for trans women an international human rights violation -- as in send blue-helmets to stop any country that allowed trans women to have medical care.

of course Terfs hate transwomen they throw better parties, have better jokes and cook better too.

 

[Captain X]

I just find it hilarious that feminists are throwing women under the bus in order to let men dominate them at sports and potentially threaten them physically or with sexual violence (as in the case of "trans women" in the UK prison system demanding to serve out their sentences in women's prison only to go on to rape women). Hell, in the UK especially, they'll go as far as to have police harass and arrest women for expressing a viewpoint that is biologically correct, while also victim-blaming them for any threats or assaults they might suffer from others. Kind of like how they threw girls under the bus in order to protect those rape gangs. It's so fucking evil and absurd that I can't help but laugh at how they undermine their own supposed cause and do exactly the things they accuse others of.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Riiiiight.

1. On the issue of trans women supposedly dominating at sports, the obvious counterpoint is that the Olympics has allowed trans women to compete in women's sports since 2004, and there haven't been any sports dominated by trans Olympians. In fact, the only real effect thus far has been a bunch of legal wailing and technicality-running over whether or not women with intersex conditions should be subject to the same hormone limits as trans women. A sidebar which, ultimately, actually showed how little scientific evidence there actually was for any of it.

2. As for trans women in the UK prison system, I'd like to see actual citations on that.

 

[Cherico]

I just find it hilarious that feminists are throwing women under the bus in order to let men dominate them at sports and potentially threaten them physically or with sexual violence (as in the case of "trans women" in the UK prison system demanding to serve out their sentences in women's prison only to go on to rape women). Hell, in the UK especially, they'll go as far as to have police harass and arrest women for expressing a viewpoint that is biologically correct, while also victim-blaming them for any threats or assaults they might suffer from others. Kind of like how they threw girls under the bus in order to protect those rape gangs. It's so fucking evil and absurd that I can't help but laugh at how they undermine their own supposed cause and do exactly the things they accuse others of.

Why are you surprised this is how hate groups act in general.

 

[Captain X]

Riiiiight.

1. On the issue of trans women supposedly dominating at sports, the obvious counterpoint is that the Olympics has allowed trans women to compete in women's sports since 1994, and there haven't been any sports dominated by trans Olympians. In fact, the only real effect thus far has been a bunch of legal wailing and technicality-running over whether or not women with intersex conditions should be subject to the same hormone limits as trans women. A sidebar which, ultimately, actually showed how little scientific evidence there actually was for any of it.

Yeah, just ignore all these other cases of "trans women" dominating in sports that have popped up in the last few years, including a case where an MMA fighter had her skull fractured by one.

2. As for trans women in the UK prison system, I'd like to see actual citations on that.

Transgender prisoner who sexually assaulted inmates jailed for life

Karen White, 52, admitted sexually assaulting women in female prison and raping two other women outside jail

www.theguardian.com

Female prison officers raped by trans inmates, ex-Tory minister claims

FEMALE prison officers have been raped by male-bodied inmates who self-identify as trans women, said a former Tory minister. London Mayoral candidate Rory Stewart who oversaw prisons in 2018 and 20…

www.thesun.co.uk

Transgender inmates carried out seven sex attacks on women in jail

Official figures show for the first time the true scale of offending by criminals who were born male but were allowed to move into female jails after changing gender. Convicted rapist Karen White pictured.

www.dailymail.co.uk

The most talked about case is a guy who was literally a convicted rapist who had never undergone any kind of a "conversion" outside of shaving and wearing a wig, and *surprise* he ended up raping some more women after being put into a women's prison. The best defense to this stupidity that anyone can think up is that "it's only a small percentage of prison rapes" while ignoring that they were entirely preventable had anyone actually used an ounce of common sense rather than being afraid of being accused of being transphobic.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Okay, this is getting very tangential and should probably be moved to its own thread as opposed to continuing here.

 

[Abhishekm]

Recommend a new NSFW Thread then. I'd recommend leaving the name and control to a mod though. I say NSFW because the topic seems to be going into more than just sports so...yeah, probably better there.

Any mods here to help cut the last bit of the topic to there?

 

[Battlegrinder]

1. On the issue of trans women supposedly dominating at sports, the obvious counterpoint is that the Olympics has allowed trans women to compete in women's sports since 1994, and there haven't been any sports dominated by trans Olympians. In fact, the only real effect thus far has been a bunch of legal wailing and technicality-running over whether or not women with intersex conditions should be subject to the same hormone limits as trans women. A sidebar which, ultimately, actually showed how little scientific evidence there actually was for any of it.

That's not quite right from what I can tell, the IOC only started allow trans athletes in 2004, not 1994. Secondly, focusing only on the Olympics isn't a good way to evaluate this. I don't think a lot of people are arguing that trans athletes are totally unbeatable, merely that they have an unfair advantage over the average competitor, and the Olympics, where the athletes are selected from the best in the world and are by no means average*, is the place that edge would be least likely to come into play. The Olympics also have actual rules and standards for trans athletes, whereas many other sports that allow them do not.

Third, there's very little scientific evidence for any side of this, not just the anti-trans side, but what data does exist does suggest it is fairly plausible that trans athletes have an advantage (even wikipedia admits as much, and wikipedia is hardly favorable to the right).


As for the wider topic of Terfs vs transwomen, while there are absolutely bad actors on the "terf" side, that's not what's happening in this specific case, and frankly I've seen the terf label thrown around to silence anyone that has any criticism of the trans movement whatsoever (J.K Rowling being the most famous example). That's an understable defensive reaction, but that doesn't mean it's always justified.


EDIT:
*IE, Michael Phelps was at the Olympics because he trained very hard for a very long time. He was also there because he's a sort of a mutant fish man who just happened to have a bunch of traits that made him even better at swimming on top of his own drive to succeed. Presuming trans athletes do have an edge (which is entirely possible), that doesn't make them instant olympians, it puts them into the running with all the other Olympians that also have a biological advantage over the average competitor, and all things being equal, there are a lot more cis athletes than trans, so the odds of a trans athlete making the cut are low.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

That's not quite right from what I can tell, the IOC only started allow trans athletes in 2004, not 1994.

You are correct; that was a typo on my part and I'll correct it.

 

[Abhorsen]

Honestly, if we had a magic way to make sure people are telling the truth about being trans, I'd have no problem with Trans athletes. It would just be another way to be born with a natural advantage over others. We don't ban people over 7 feet from basketball for example. My issue is with people who might be lying about it to get an advantage, and I don't see a way to properly stop that from happening.

Now, would people do this? Yes. Basically, from the sample size of men who can do X about as well the women in Y level in X would face a strong incentive to pretend to be a woman. This is vs the hugely smaller numbers of trans people in Y, which even smaller than just the percentage of trans people because we are selecting from the edge of a bell curve.

Basketball would be a prime place this might happen. Basketball is particularly sensitive to height, and transitioning post-puberty doesn't affect height. On top of this, WNBA is fairly prominent for women's sports, so the pay would be good.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Honestly, if we had a magic way to make sure people are telling the truth about being trans, I'd have no problem with Trans athletes. It would just be another way to be born with a natural advantage over others. We don't ban people over 7 feet from basketball for example. My issue is with people who might be lying about it to get an advantage, and I don't see a way to properly stop that from happening.

The existing rules require trans women athletes to undergo hormone treatment and verification of stable testosterone levels under limit. Someone undergoing hormone treatment to transition to the opposite gender from their actual identity in order to "play trans sports" is going to experience the same crippling dysphoria and depression that actual trans people do *until* we transition. I'm sorry that I've forgotten the title, but I remember a book where a female journalist tried to do a gender version of John Howard Griffin's "Black Like Me" social experiment, but after just a few weeks under hormone treatment she was so depressed that she nearly committed suicide.

Trans men aren't required to undergo hormone treatment, as it's assumed that they're physically disadvantaged rather than advantaged. There was at least one case of a trans man choosing to defer hormone treatment so that he could continue playing in women's sports. That was something of a social issue, but there wasn't really a physical fairness issue at play.

 

[Abhorsen]

The existing rules require trans women athletes to undergo hormone treatment and verification of stable testosterone levels under limit. Someone undergoing hormone treatment to transition to the opposite gender from their actual identity in order to "play trans sports" is going to experience the same crippling dysphoria and depression that actual trans people do *until* we transition. I'm sorry that I've forgotten the title, but I remember a book where a female journalist tried to do a gender version of John Howard Griffin's "Black Like Me" social experiment, but after just a few weeks under hormone treatment she was so depressed that she nearly committed suicide.

Yeah, but some people are willing to do this, because the benefits in exchange are huge. Not everyone experiences huge dysphoria also. So people can definitely get away with this.

Trans men aren't required to undergo hormone treatment, as it's assumed that they're physically disadvantaged rather than advantaged. There was at least one case of a trans man choosing to defer hormone treatment so that he could continue playing in women's sports. That was something of a social issue, but there wasn't really a physical fairness issue at play.

Oh, I have no problem with trans men competing either for the same reason. There's no incentive to fake it.

 

[LordsFire]

but there wasn't really a physical fairness issue at play.

That simply is not true.

Growing up with higher testosterone levels has permanent long-term impacts on the human body. Sure, lower testosterone later in life makes it harder to build muscle mass, but the upper body muscle mass and density will already be higher, and the impact on nerve tissue doesn't just disappear either. Men have faster reaction times than women, and there are plenty of sports where that has an impact.

Using hormone blockers, suppressants, and supplements will have an effect, sure. But it won't undo a decade or few either all at once, or permanently, which is why if there's 'trans-women' athletes competing in womens events, they tend to either completely dominate, or be in the top echelon, with nothing even remotely approaching a normal distribution.

 

[S'task]

That's not quite right from what I can tell, the IOC only started allow trans athletes in 2004, not 1994.

You are correct; that was a typo on my part and I'll correct it.

I'm derailing a moment to bring attention to this exchange and praise both of these two for how they handled this in a civil and fair manner. BG did not make any accusations or attack Arxxy for her mistake and assumed good faith and presented his correction with civility. Arxxy also civilly acknowledged the mistake and took it in good faith too. Well played both of you.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

That simply is not true.

*sighs*

I was quite clearly talking about trans men in that sentence, but you're arguing as if I was talking about trans women competing without HRT adjustment.

Growing up with higher testosterone levels has permanent long-term impacts on the human body. Sure, lower testosterone later in life makes it harder to build muscle mass, but the upper body muscle mass and density will already be higher, and the impact on nerve tissue doesn't just disappear either. Men have faster reaction times than women, and there are plenty of sports where that has an impact.

1. It's not just "harder to build muscle mass" without male testosterone levels, it's impossible to retain it. Loss of muscle mass is even a symptom for the far lower dose, short term hormone therapy used to treat certain prostate conditions, let alone full fledged gender transition therapy.

2. Your own citation states that men have faster reaction times attributes the difference to "differences in societal roles throughout human history", not biological differences.

Using hormone blockers, suppressants, and supplements will have an effect, sure. But it won't undo a decade or few either all at once, or permanently, which is why if there's 'trans-women' athletes competing in womens events, they tend to either completely dominate, or be in the top echelon, with nothing even remotely approaching a normal distribution.

Trans women have been allowed in the Olympics since 2004, and in NCAA college sports since 2011. No such widespread domination has occurred.

 

[LindyAF]

Your own citation states that men have faster reaction times attributes the difference to "differences in societal roles throughout human history", not biological differences.

🤣 at "men have faster reaction times but it's totally due to historical social roles"

We swear our evidence doesn't argue in favor of a thoughtcrime, we're good party men, no really.

 

[Cherico]

That simply is not true.

Growing up with higher testosterone levels has permanent long-term impacts on the human body. Sure, lower testosterone later in life makes it harder to build muscle mass, but the upper body muscle mass and density will already be higher, and the impact on nerve tissue doesn't just disappear either. Men have faster reaction times than women, and there are plenty of sports where that has an impact.

Using hormone blockers, suppressants, and supplements will have an effect, sure. But it won't undo a decade or few either all at once, or permanently, which is why if there's 'trans-women' athletes competing in womens events, they tend to either completely dominate, or be in the top echelon, with nothing even remotely approaching a normal distribution.

so what your saying is if we allow transwomen to take over sports the WNBA will be watchable for a change.