Transgender Rights

[Deleted member 1]

This sounds a bit too close to "we must not prevent suffering, for suffering brings men closer to god" for my liking.

They are already close to God, the question is whether or not we respect that or just lock them up and pretend that's somehow helping them. Our treatment for mental illness remains pathetic, and perhaps it is because it is not really illness, and not really related to the mind.

 

[Terthna]

They are already close to God, the question is whether or not we respect that or just lock them up and pretend that's somehow helping them. Our treatment for mental illness remains pathetic, and perhaps it is because it is not really illness, and not really related to the mind.

If that's not an argument for religion being a sign of mental illness, then I don't know what is. You are seriously making me reconsider abandoning atheism for agnostic theism; but then my problems in regards to religion were always with people, not any sort of higher power. The mentally ill are not here to serve as an alter for your faith; they need help, which is hard enough to get without people like you arguing that they don't.

 

[Nitramy]

If that's not an argument for religion being a sign of mental illness, then I don't know what is. You are seriously making me reconsider abandoning atheism for agnostic theism; but then my problems in regards to religion were always with people, not any sort of higher power. The mentally ill are not here to serve as an alter for your faith; they need help, which is hard enough to get without people like you arguing that they don't.

The theosophist in me also agrees with the argument from function: if there is a way to fix what is broken, why keep it broken due to some "spiritual" reason? It's like those guys who crucify themselves in my neck of the woods during Good Friday: sure, I can see the ceremonial value in it, but the functional one? That I have yet to see.

(Also whoever says that "I will not do my best to ease suffering in the world because suffering builds character" is a sadist and suffering fetishist in the vein of Mother Teresa, but that's just me.)

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Children should not ever be reassigned, as their personality and identity is not yet formed, they could flip to cis in a few years and ironically end up with gender dysphoria because of reassignment.

Two points in response:

1. Contrary to common FUD, children aren't reassigned under current transition protocols. The treatment for transgender children is to allow social transition, and in the mid-teen years only fully reversible hormonal intervention in the form of puberty blockers. And even there, the protocol takes a very conservative approach and recommends that psychologists force the child to go through puberty to "at least" Tanner Stage 2 and confirming that they are experiencing severe gender dysphoria before allowing blockers to be prescribed.

2. The studies that seemingly validated the idea that transgender children have a high rate of "desistance", which underlies the "need" to be cautious about minor transitioning, were invalid. Even the research group that produced those studies now admits this and has completely altered its position based on follow-up studies.

To make a long story short, the original study committed a fundamental logic error by defining "desistance" based on the percent of all children who were referred to one specific gender clinic by their parents who transitioned at the same clinic later on. This means that the study counted as "desisting": 1) all children who simply "could not be located" for the follow-up study, 2) all children whose parents declined to participate in the follow-up study, and 3) all children who never actually identified as transgender at all, but whose parents referred them to the clinic for what the parents felt was "non gender traditional" behavior.

When the same research group did a follow-on study using the exact same data, but only considered children who actually expressed a transgender identity, they found that the "desistance" rate for such children was essentially nil and they concluded that self-identification as a child was in fact an accurate predictor for going through with successful transition later in life. In other words, parents shouldn't assume a child is trans based on their child simply demonstrating curiosity about gender identity and social roles, but when a child persistently and insistently states that their gender is something other than their birth assignment, that is a reliable indicator.

Yeah, he's talking out of his ass. Transitioning has positive outcomes as a treatment for gender dysphoria, and as such is the commonly accepted treatment.

Transitioning is the only treatment with a track record of successful patient outcomes for trans people, and as such has been for several decades the only treatment endorsed by medical and psychological professionals at large. As in, it is the on-the-record professional consensus from both the American Medical Association and the American Psychological Association, independently of each other.

There is literally no group that endorses "reparative" non-transition therapy for transgender patients other than ideologically associated ones which argue that transitioning is unacceptable regardless of the scientific and medical record.

 

[Nitramy]

Transitioning is the only treatment with a track record of successful patient outcomes for trans people, and as such has been for several decades the only treatment endorsed by medical and psychological professionals at large. As in, it is the on-the-record professional consensus from both the American Medical Association and the American Psychological Association, independently of each other.

There is literally no group that endorses "reparative" non-transition therapy for transgender patients other than ideologically associated ones which argue that transitioning is unacceptable regardless of the scientific and medical record.

Just to clarify: the best treatment for gender dysphoria is neurological -- and it's not yet available given the level of medical technology we have at the moment.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Just to clarify: the best treatment for gender dysphoria is neurological -- and it's not yet available given the level of medical technology we have at the moment.

What constitutes a "theoretical ideal" treatment outside of what actually exists is moving into ideological and philosophical territory, not science and medicine.

 

[Sol Zagato]

Some of the-phenotypes-that-get-labeled-as-trans are pretty evidently human universals that go way back. A squirt of the wrong sex hormone at the wrong time prenatally, and BLAM!, the brain phenotype doesn't match the body phenotype. The result is not technically a delusion unless the victim thinks they're in actuality the opposite sex, instead of simply desiring to be.

It concerns me it's possible the rates may be boosted by modern living and plastics. It also concerns me that Chinese eunuchs were into premarin. That suggests people can also be socialized into desiring an opposite-sex body, because it's not likely the boys selected to be eunuchs had trans-phenotype-brains at a higher rate than the general population.

I don't think this means 'real-vs-fake' trans in a clear cut manner, but rather that both MTF and FTM categories are grab-bags of various disorders. Outside of the portion (a minority?) who would have felt a strong body dysphoria no matter what century they'd been living in, the trans phenomenon we're seeing is culture-bound syndromes, literal poisoning and cultural poisoning (the effects of internet pornography on the brain, anyone?). I think sexual fetishism can have an extremely strong effect on people, more than is generally acknowledged, and that's a big part of it. I also think some people, who would otherwise merely be "sexually and/or mentally fucked up" by nature, have a new template to conform to- there are segments of the FTM population that appear in particular to be the result of faddishness. Finally, kids are impressionable. For the kids who are strongly trans, this is a good era. For kids in the middle or with the wrong parents, this could result in decisions terrible enough they'll be studied in textbooks, like Dr. John Money's bullshit.

Whatever the underlying etiology, I'm pretty strongly transhumanist. Their bodies at their disposal, you know. It would be good prevent people from doing things that will ruin their lives, but it's a nasty tangle of politics and neuroscience to figure out what each individual ought to do, and what led them to this state. Hands off is probably good policy, but all the applause is a mistake. The current thrust of 'progress' is both a kindness and degeneracy.

If I was some pushy liberal's kid today, given my behavior I may have been pushed into doing gender reassignment. From the perspective of all these years later, that would have been a ruinous mistake.

 

[Deleted member 1]

The theosophist in me also agrees with the argument from function: if there is a way to fix what is broken, why keep it broken due to some "spiritual" reason? It's like those guys who crucify themselves in my neck of the woods during Good Friday: sure, I can see the ceremonial value in it, but the functional one? That I have yet to see.

(Also whoever says that "I will not do my best to ease suffering in the world because suffering builds character" is a sadist and suffering fetishist in the vein of Mother Teresa, but that's just me.)

But of course I am saying that honouring the people you call mentally ill and integrating them into society is far healthier than pathologising them. This is functionally true because the rates of mental illness have been rising out of control in modern society. Why did traditional societies get along without prozac and mental hospitals?

We are using the mental illness industry for boundary control of what is not socially acceptable because our own traditional standards of belief have broken down. Cultural anthropology makes this abundantly clear because the way the so-called mentally ill express in other societies is very strongly culturally mediated.

 

[Nitramy]

Why did traditional societies get along without prozac and mental hospitals?

We are using the mental illness industry for boundary control of what is not socially acceptable because our own traditional standards of belief have broken down. Cultural anthropology makes this abundantly clear because the way the so-called mentally ill express in other societies is very strongly culturally mediated.

Agreed, but sometimes there is no profound meaning to a certain set of circumstances other than what they are.

The gender wires in a transgender person's brain are crossed.

Now, I'm a theosophist, but sometimes the most obvious way of fixing a problem is the most effective (UNCROSS THOSE WIRES).

What constitutes a "theoretical ideal" treatment outside of what actually exists is moving into ideological and philosophical territory, not science and medicine.

What I mean is that we -- humanity as a whole -- will cross that ideological and philosophical bridge... when we get to it.

If I was some pushy liberal's kid today, given my behavior I may have been pushed into doing gender reassignment. From the perspective of all these years later, that would have been a ruinous mistake.

Agreed. Transtrenders are, quoting Altera, very bad civilization.

 

[Deleted member 18]

Agreed, but sometimes there is no profound meaning to a certain set of circumstances other than what they are.

The gender wires in a transgender person's brain are crossed.

Now, I'm a theosophist, but sometimes the most obvious way of fixing a problem is the most effective (UNCROSS THOSE WIRES).

I mean the most supported model for how transgenderism works is that horomone fluctuations in the womb lead to the brain literally developing in the mold of one sex while the body develops in the mold of the other sex. We're not talking a "few crossed wires" but rather something more like the brain as an organic whole fitting that of one gender. "Correcting" that probably isn't actually possible without destroying the brain because of the sheer scope of changes that would involve; it certainly wouldn't be taking some pills and bam all of a sudden no more dysphoria.

 

[Deleted member 1]

The gender wires in a transgender person's brain are crossed.

Now, I'm a theosophist, but sometimes the most obvious way of fixing a problem is the most effective (UNCROSS THOSE WIRES).

I simply do not and will not believe it is congruent with conservative principles to change the mind of a sapient being against their will. Declaring the human spirit a pathology is fundamentally totalitarianism.

 

[Sol Zagato]

I simply do not and will not believe it is congruent with conservative principles to change the mind of a sapient being against their will. Declaring the human spirit a pathology is fundamentally totalitarianism.

That's not necessarily advocating anything against someone's will. I am chomping at the bit to tinker with my own mind of my own will. Shit's busted yo.

I could do with actually desiring to do things more often, for example.

 

[Nitramy]

I mean the most supported model for how transgenderism works is that hormone fluctuations in the womb lead to the brain literally developing in the mold of one sex while the body develops in the mold of the other sex. We're not talking a "few crossed wires" but rather something more like the brain as an organic whole fitting that of one gender. "Correcting" that probably isn't actually possible without destroying the brain because of the sheer scope of changes that would involve; it certainly wouldn't be taking some pills and bam all of a sudden no more dysphoria.

Hmm.

I think I kind of understand now; that the solution for dysphoria isn't a transgenderism question, it's a transhumanist one.

 

[Deleted member 1]

Think about it this way. We are talking about more than just a switch in the brain which controls someone's identity. We're talking also about an entire set of behaviours. These behaviours are collectively what in males are termed "effeminacy". Simply removing the female identity from the brain of someone with a predominantly male typical physical body would have little positive result, because you would still have an individual with the mind, emotions, and mannerism of a court eunuch; hardly someone who would fit in well with the society and company of men. Indeed, one may say it is a mercy for such an individual to identify as a woman because identifying as a man they would be in the company of those who would hold their actions, their mannerism, their tone of voice, their whole approach to social interaction, as contemptuous.

The reality is that women and men have different minds, different thoughts, different behavioural impulses on a broad range. We are not the same. To someone who mentally matched those characteristics generally, simply changing their identity would be worse than useless. They fit in with women on a systematic level, which means that a systematic change of their mind would be required--which would be unambiguously the erasure of one personality and its replacement with another, in sum total.

Of course, this brings the entire transgenderist movement to its knees as well. They are really absurd and illogical, because they deny these differences. They insist on being able to identify as whatever you want. They minimise the biological differences, and talk about "tearing down heteronormativity", as if gender were some kind of ideological position! But if that's the case, then why does anyone need to transition? Radfems are simply brave enough to point out that the Emperor Has No Clothes; if the postulates of the modern transgenderist movement are correct, then nobody would need to transition. In fact, in their candid moments, some transgenderists are honest that transitioning is to them a political act. The entire thing is laid bare: Transgenderism is just a political ideology focused on tearing down the differences between men and women.

But that doesn't change the reality that biological transsexuals have existed for thousands of years in various traditionally-mediated social roles. Nor does it need to. There is a clear distinction and delineation between the two. And it's a very easy one, too. Because there is a clear difference between men and women, the transsexuals who act like women... Generally are, and the ones who act like hysterical left-wing political activists... Generally aren't women. Of course it's not a perfect breakdown, because it's quite possible for women to become hysterical leftwing political activists. But one meet women who are probably transsexual, who pass well, who are feminine in their comportment and emotions, who it is easy to get along with, who don't scare you or seem odd or out of place in your spaces. And then you'll encounter others who are clearly, clearly not supposed to be there, because they are really men.

For the former group we have gate-keeping and surgery because the all profound range of behaviours which go into that identity collectively represent the whole of a personality, and altering it means ending that personality--because men and women are different, and you cannot function as a woman, having been born male, with only a single switch in a single part of the personality "flipped" so to speak. And for the later group -- we, again, need to keep women's spaces safe from them with reasonable gatekeeping legislation.

 

[Nitramy]

Yeah, ancient times had a sociological solution to the transgender problem.

Which worked... for a time.

This is why I'm saying it's a transhumanist problem now, because hopefully, in the future, you could literally become any gender you wanted.

(I mean, like those Innovades from Gundam 00. Living terminals of a quantum supercomputer, they are assigned with physical bodies whose gender they can freely choose.)

 

[ShadowArxxy]

I mean the most supported model for how transgenderism works is that horomone fluctuations in the womb lead to the brain literally developing in the mold of one sex while the body develops in the mold of the other sex. We're not talking a "few crossed wires" but rather something more like the brain as an organic whole fitting that of one gender. "Correcting" that probably isn't actually possible without destroying the brain because of the sheer scope of changes that would involve; it certainly wouldn't be taking some pills and bam all of a sudden no more dysphoria.

You are absolutely correct; sex and gender have never been as simple as most people think.

In biology alone, you have genetic, hormonal, anatomical, and neurological layers. There's multiple biological elements within each layer, and multiple forms of atypical development are known to occur in any and all of those levels. And that is before adding the psychological and social layers.

While the body of evidence is currently not as definite as I would like it to be, it is accurate to say that all current scientific evidence strongly supports the idea that most if not all cases of transgender identity are firmly rooted in biological reality. One can best think of being trans (in all its forms, not just the "classical transsexual") as falling into the same spectrum of developmental issues as intersex conditions, divided only by a lack of overt external anatomical irregularities.

As a corollary, keep in mind that the medical understanding of intersex conditions has long since moved past being based on overt external anatomical irregularities. Likewise, treatment of intersex patients has moved away from the original focus of forced normalization and towards patient-centered informed consent, so it strongly converges with transgender patient treatment in practice as well as in theory.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

It concerns me it's possible the rates may be boosted by modern living and plastics.

The only plastic with an actual proven record in this regard is BPA, but the effect of BPA is on the level of plant based phytoestrogens -- sufficient to cause endocrine disruption, not sufficient to actually induce feminization.

Note that endocrine disruption is what phytoestrogens literally evolved to do. It's an evolved defense strategy in which the plant effectively breeds successful predation of itself out of the gene pool. But that's a far lower level of estrogenic activity than is involved in actual HRT regimens -- this has been quite extensively tested in popular attempts at DIY transitioning among trans women, and the track record is that significant feminizing effects are simply not seen.

It also concerns me that Chinese eunuchs were into premarin. That suggests people can also be socialized into desiring an opposite-sex body, because it's not likely the boys selected to be eunuchs had trans-phenotype-brains at a higher rate than the general population.

On the contrary, the selection of boys deemed suitable for eunuchs (and castrati singers in Europe) quite strongly favored boys who already had relatively feminine characteristics, which meant they actually very much were filtering for individuals who tended towards intersex conditions as we know them today.

Raw, unprocessed pregnant mare urine is rich in actual mammalian estrogen, but it is a far cry from actual purified medical estrogen. It would have primarily been effective on individuals who *already had* some form of intersex development.

If I was some pushy liberal's kid today, given my behavior I may have been pushed into doing gender reassignment. From the perspective of all these years later, that would have been a ruinous mistake.

And from the perspective of knowing actual clinical protocols, I can say that isn't actually a problem, because the entire gatekeeping system around transition therapy is built around having trained professionals doing the evaluations and *not* "pushy liberal parents".

 

[Nitramy]

And from the perspective of knowing actual clinical protocols, I can say that isn't actually a problem, because the entire gatekeeping system around transition therapy is built around having trained professionals doing the evaluations and *not* "pushy liberal parents".

You do know that pushy liberal Karens can and will find a way to subvert actual clinical protocols, right?

 

[7 Gold Eye Heals the Wise]

I mean the most supported model

Based on which studies? All studies I have read say the opposite. Homosexual(and for some reason multilingual) people have a brain more closely resembling the opposite of their biological sex, and even then not that much.

Trans brain scans show that they have difference with the bit that controls motor functions, learning, and feedback(somatic nervous system).

If the "brain in body of opposite sex" thing were the cause of gender dysphoria, it would lead homosexuality to come with a nearly 100% rate of gender dysphoria. The bits of the brain homo & het people with gender dysphoria show differences in seem to be related to the parts of the somatic nervous system that deal with feedback*, as in: how they perceive their bodies**.

*And how you handle stress.

**See also: Somatoparaphrenia, similar disorder that has a similar cause.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Based on which studies? All studies I have read say the opposite. Homosexual(and for some reason multilingual) people have a brain more closely resembling the opposite of their biological sex, and even then not that much.

Citations to these studies, please.

Trans brain scans show that they have difference with the bit that controls motor functions, learning, and feedback(somatic nervous system).

Definitely citations for these.

As both a trans girl *and* a cognitive science major, I go to considerable trouble to keep up with the scientific literature on the subject, and I've never even *heard* of any studies along the lines you describe here.

The strongest evidence on trans neuroanatomy doesn't even involve brain scans -- it's examining divergences in the BTSC region of the brain, which are only accessible via exceptionally skilled postmortem microdissesction of brains donated to science because brain scans don't achieve sufficient resolution to actually visualize these features.

Brain scans were used in Guillamon‘s research out of Madrid, but are far less definite because they're only looking at large-scale structures in white matter which are not definitively tied to gender identity. Moreoever, Guillamon's research shows the opposite conclusion from what you claim; his results were that four regions of the brain showed consistent gender differentiation between cis male and cis female subjects, and that those regions in trans female subjects were intermediate in structure but *closer to the cis female configuration than the cis male configuration*.

IIf the "brain in body of opposite sex" thing were the cause of gender dysphoria, it would lead homosexuality to come with a nearly 100% rate of gender dysphoria. The bits of the brain homo & het people with gender dysphoria show differences in seem to be related to the parts of the somatic nervous system that deal with feedback*, as in: how they perceive their bodies**.

Your argument makes no sense because "brain in body of opposite sex" has never been an actual claim made at any level other than very broad oversimplification oriented towards a lay audience.

The actual scientific findings are, "Multiple independent studies have found that both male-to-female and female-to-male transgender patients have neuroanatomical structures in certain gender-differentiated parts of the brain which are consistent with their gender identity and not consistent with their birth assignment."