Transgender Rights

[GoldRanger]

Moral obligations are a tricky thing. There are a great many activities which no one individual is obligated to engage in, and yet if no one did it, would be an utter disaster. Having children is included in this category.

This idea kind of borders on Immanuel Kant’s categorical imperative. To decide if an action is moral or immoral, imagine the outcome if everyone acted in such a way. Of course, the categorical imperative has its flaws, but he was onto something too.

What if no one had children anymore? Humanity would die out, which would be one of the very worst imaginable outcomes. What if we limit it to a single nation or people? What if British people all stopped having children? This would lead to an end to British people. Is this bad? I would say very much so. Oh sure, maybe immigration from Pakistan (just as one example) would bolster the declining British population - but though they may be living in the British Isles, they won’t be British people any more than I am a Cherokee because I am living on land that they used to occupy. If you think that it’s fine for the British to disappear and be replaced by Pakistanis, then I would invite you to live in the UK for a while and then live in Pakistan for a while and compare and contrast the differences.

Of course, nobody is obligated to have kids, unless nobody is having kids in which case maybe it starts to become an obligation.

Maybe no one is obligated to stand up for what they believe in when it is dangerous to do so, but if no one is willing to, then there will be profound tangible and negative effects from failure to engage in these non-obligations.

If fertility is an issue on a national scale, then the way forward is government incentives to make children (such as tax reduction for families of a certain size for example), not an attempt to instill a "duty to reproduce" narrative, which I frankly find creepy.

 

[Cherico]

If fertility is an issue on a national scale, then the way forward is government incentives to make children (such as tax reduction for families of a certain size for example), not an attempt to instill a "duty to reproduce" narrative, which I frankly find creepy.

Yeah those don't work, you have people having children younger but they don't have more of them.

If you really want to increase the number of children either make divorce fair or make it rare. Because a whole generation just grew up watching their fathers get destroyed in divorce court and have no desire what so ever to go through that special kind of hell.

 

[Nitramy]

Well I tend to disagree with inherent duty as a concept. Nobody is owed anything from or by me, period. Anything they get is at my sole discretion and whim.

You do know that "rights without responsibilities" is one of the modern deadly sins, right? Like, I'm not all for being totally bound to duty, and there are ways in which I must express myself or live my life, but I'm trying to find a good balance between collectivist and individualist values.

Anyway, back on track.

So, as it turns out, there was more eyewitness testimony in that "handcuffed transgender bathroom incident" in the Philippines. Based on other eyewitnesses, the transgender was drunk and threatened the janitor with immediate social media shaming, and that the handcuffing was for threatening to start an incident, not because of their gender.

 

[Deleted member 1]

Moral obligations are a tricky thing. There are a great many activities which no one individual is obligated to engage in, and yet if no one did it, would be an utter disaster. Having children is included in this category.

This idea kind of borders on Immanuel Kant’s categorical imperative. To decide if an action is moral or immoral, imagine the outcome if everyone acted in such a way. Of course, the categorical imperative has its flaws, but he was onto something too.

What if no one had children anymore? Humanity would die out, which would be one of the very worst imaginable outcomes. What if we limit it to a single nation or people? What if British people all stopped having children? This would lead to an end to British people. Is this bad? I would say very much so. Oh sure, maybe immigration from Pakistan (just as one example) would bolster the declining British population - but though they may be living in the British Isles, they won’t be British people any more than I am a Cherokee because I am living on land that they used to occupy. If you think that it’s fine for the British to disappear and be replaced by Pakistanis, then I would invite you to live in the UK for a while and then live in Pakistan for a while and compare and contrast the differences.

Of course, nobody is obligated to have kids, unless nobody is having kids in which case maybe it starts to become an obligation.

Maybe no one is obligated to stand up for what they believe in when it is dangerous to do so, but if no one is willing to, then there will be profound tangible and negative effects from failure to engage in these non-obligations.

I actually want to answer this in some detail completely unrelated to the subject of this thread; could you start a new thread in the Athenaeum and I could post a reply there? It contains some very good observations and I wish to answer with a few of my own.

 

[Deleted member 1]

I also wish to add that I elaborated on the original thesis on metaphysics to clarify a few points I really shouldn't have left unsaid before, and I apologise for that.

 

[Strigan44]

First one
Key takeaway

Uh... did you miss the sentence directly below that?
Additionally, the survey stated that being able to pass as their preferred gender (which is very difficult without SRS) decreases the suicide risk by a significant margin.

Your second survey is comparing trans people who transitioned to cisgender people. Not trans individuals who never transitioned. You still have yet to show evidence that:

• Transgender individuals that transition have a worse suicide rate.
• There are efficient forms of “treatment” for transgender people that work on a reliable basis.

 

[Big Steve]

I'm not very familiar with the science, but I'll say this. I've personally visited and met four transwomen I know online (and on the same trip) and at a time when I needed friendship and a chance to get away from my grief, they provided it, and I saw no sign of any kind of mental illness or anything beyond the wonderful quirks any Human being can develop.

You can chalk it up to my not noticing things, or you'll consider them outliers, but I'd like you to consider that maybe the reason for those high suicide rates even after surgery isn't because of said surgery, or it not "fixing them", but because they're still part of a society filled with people who demean them, wish to emotionally abuse them, and generally treat them like crap.

Maybe this Yaniv person and others are part of a negative fad that are also a problem, but I don't consider it justification to grumble about their "obligation to have children" or otherwise insinuate there's something wrong with who they are.

There, said my peace.

 

[Battlegrinder]

Uh... did you miss the sentence directly below that?

No, I just didn't find it relevant given that other studies fill in that gap. I don't have all of them on hand right now, will post later.

Additionally, the survey stated that being able to pass as their preferred gender (which is very difficult without SRS) decreases the suicide risk by a significant margin.

A large margin, but still well above the normal population. And this study is short term, the swedish long term study suggests that any benefit transitioning provides is not effective. That's why the Obama administration elected not to cover it under Medicare and Medicaid, studies consistently failed to show it worked (largely due to poor design being endemic within the cited body of research, something the swedish also noted).

Your second survey is comparing trans people who transitioned to cisgender people. Not trans individuals who never transitioned.

I'm aware of that, but given that as I also noted, the swedish trans scuide rare in general is around 30%, while this study found the rate of suicide and attempted suicide was about 27%. That's not what I'd call an improvement.

You still have yet to show evidence that:

I haven't shown evidence of that because I've claimed neither. The only thing I've claimed is that an accepting and tolerate social network helps, as shown by the williams report.

 

[Doomsought]

The only rights that are specific to the topic of transgenderism are medical privacy rights.

Nobody has any right to enforce their delusions on society, especially in a case that is so trivial to prove to be a delusion from first principles. Proving something from first principles is usually extremely difficult, here it is trivial.

 

[Big Steve]

The only rights that are specific to the topic of transgenderism are medical privacy rights.

Nobody has any right to enforce their delusions on society, especially in a case that is so trivial to prove to be a delusion from first principles. Proving something from first principles is usually extremely difficult, here it is trivial.

So, what, they get medical confidentiality, but can't legally change their gender or file new identity paperwork or what have you? Where precisely are you going with this "right to enforce their delusions on society" thing?

 

[Doomsought]

Where precisely are you going with this "right to enforce their delusions on society" thing?

Exactly that. Their self perception to be a member of the opposite sex is nothing more than a delusion. Nobody should go along with it.


Also Trans activists have an extremely backwards view of identity. You do not own your identity, and you have no control of it. Your identity is the relationship the rest of the world has with you. The only control you have over your identity is to attempt to do something to convince the rest of the world to change that relationship. Like earning a promotion or running for an election, to change your identity into a manager or official respectively. For a different example of identity beign changed, what people have actually stolen is the relationship your bank or state has with you.

 

[Edgeplay_cgo]

A large margin, but still well above the normal population. And this study is short term, the swedish long term study suggests that any benefit transitioning provides is not effective.

I submit that a large part of that is because their transition is, as Punch Card Girl so eloquently expressed, imperfect. They are imperfect women or men as the case may be.

My friend considers herself a woman, but mourns the fact that it will be effectively impossible to find a heterosexual lover.

 

[Deleted member 1]

Also Trans activists have an extremely backwards view of identity. You do not own your identity, and you have no control of it. Your identity is the relationship the rest of the world has with you. The only control you have over your identity is to attempt to do something to convince the rest of the world to change that relationship. Like earning a promotion or running for an election, to change your identity into a manager or official respectively. For a different example of identity beign changed, what people have actually stolen is the relationship your bank or state has with you.

Identity is indeed socially mediated, but of course the truth of inner understanding needs no social sanction or forgiveness. It is also wise to remember that all societies through history have had traditional practices to deal with difficult cases, exceptions and outliers to expected social custom and duty. These mercies are an illustration of the inner humanity of peoples and societies to recognise the humanity, the ensoulled nature of those around them. To eliminate these exceptions and special rules is to eliminate mercy and compassion, to declare human difference intolerable—to clinicalise human society, pathologise uniqueness, and impose a social totalitarianism. That is not a road any conservative should be comfortable walking, even against an egregious community that represents a fraction of a percent. To say a society should have no place for exceptions to its customs and laws is to speak the language of progressivism, to be frank.

 

[Deleted member 18]

There is a more than plausible explanation for the existence of transgendered people being caused by hormone fluctuations in the womb that leave the brain to develop a gender separate from its physical sex. We have evidence of this from various biological markers, especially the manner in which brains of transwomen and transmen are often intermediate in certain features between brains of cis-sexual men and women. We also know that biology of natal development can produce a variety of intersex conditions which I think give a lie to the idea that sex and gender are always self-evident. Even if those conditions are, like transgenderism, exceedingly rare they still exist and must be accounted for.

And then there's plenty of examples of societies that allow certain individuals of one sex to be treated as a member of the other sex. The circumstances and conditions all vary but it's widespread enough to suggest that sort of thing evolved to fill a need. Those needs might not all be about accommodating transgendered individuals (Albanian "sworn virgins" who live as men are more about being able to find someone to carry out vengeance if a family's males have all been killed in blood feuds) but I suspect neither are they incidental. The idea that someone might have a soul or spirit that does not match their body is hardly inconceivable if one does believe in a transcendent soul, in any case.

Personal experience has also long removed any doubt I had about the validity of transitioning. Some people are born with the wrong physical sex and can correct it to the best degree possible now. If Iran doesn't find that idea particularly frightening then I think we can manage. It's less of a social revolution than gay marriage in nearly every way.

I do also think there are some bad actors out there. The Yaniv character seems like at best an example of comorbid mental illness with transgender condition. I am deeply skeptical of the sudden fad for nonbinary identities; when there was a fad for androgyny in the 1970s no one pretended that David Bowie wasn't a dude and he didn't need custom pronouns to express himself. It reeks of hipster faddishness for people who would otherwise just be effeminate bisexuals or tomgirls. Maybe there's something to them feeling constrained by gender roles that society compels on them as a result of being male or female, but I can't credit that they have some sort of essential identity beyond being male or female.

On the whole though I see no reason not to accommodate transgendered individuals, a lot of reasons to take most of them at their word, and certainly no cause to act like a dick to them. The bathroom bill nonsense is just a distraction from more important matters like literally anything else since being a creep in a bathroom is an offense whether or not you match the gender on the door. And I'd wager we have far, faaaaar fewer dudes dressing up in wigs and dresses to rape women in their bathrooms than we have straight dudes putting cameras in those bathrooms.

 

[Strigan44]

A large margin, but still well above the normal population. And this study is short term, the swedish long term study suggests that any benefit transitioning provides is not effective. That's why the Obama administration elected not to cover it under Medicare and Medicaid, studies consistently failed to show it worked (largely due to poor design being endemic within the cited body of research, something the swedish also noted).




I'm aware of that, but given that as I also noted, the swedish trans scuide rare in general is around 30%, while this study found the rate of suicide and attempted suicide was about 27%. That's not what I'd call an improvement.

Okay, I got home from my class and was able to view the full 2011 study. As the study points out, the high suicide rate is due to the fact that the survey's time period extends back into the 1970s, when transgender individuals were not very widely accepted. When the survey's response base is separated into two groups- 1973 to 1989 and 1989 to 2003- the more recent group shows relatively little deviation from the base population. More on that here: Fact check: study shows transition makes trans people suicidal

Exactly that. Their self perception to be a member of the opposite sex is nothing more than a delusion. Nobody should go along with it.

How can you objectively classify transgender identification as a "delusion"?

 

[Doomsought]

How can you objectively classify transgender identification as a "delusion"?

Reality is that which remains the true when you cease to believe in it. If a transgender person ceases to believe that they are a member of the opposite sex (as it does in a majority of cases), do they remain a member of the opposite sex? Under any standard no. Therefore, according to the definition of reality, they are not really a member of the opposite sex, it is just a delusion.

Thus, I have proven from first principles that transgenderism is a delusion. There is no higher form of evidence than a proof form first principles. The only way to falsify my proof is to provide an alternate definition of reality.

 

[Battlegrinder]

Okay, I got home from my class and was able to view the full 2011 study. As the study points out, the high suicide rate is due to the fact that the survey's time period extends back into the 1970s, when transgender individuals were not very widely accepted. When the survey's response base is separated into two groups- 1973 to 1989 and 1989 to 2003- the more recent group shows relatively little deviation from the base population. More on that here: Fact check: study shows transition makes trans people suicidal

Ok, do you have a source on that's not obviously written by some rando with an axe to grind? I'd like something with a bit more credibility and professionalism than someone going "look guys, this screenshot shows I totally talked to the author, and she agrees with me! Take that, bigots!". Some verification that that conversation actually happened would be quite helpful here, because the claim is that for the later cohort, they had a sucide rate on par with the general population....which other studies explicitly contradict.

 

[Nitramy]

When "transgender activists" pull off entitled shit like this, yeah.

Transwoman against putting up LGBT restrooms - Manila Bulletin

Gretchen Diez the transgender woman whose rights were violated inside a women’s washroom in a mall in Quezon City, strongly objects to the proposal to build a separate comfort room for the LGBT community.

news.mb.com.ph

I mean, despite what this person says (I don't want to cost establishments more), this is still coming across as "BAKE THE CAKE BIGOT, WAX MY BALLS BIGOT, SUCK MY DICK BIGOT, LET ME INTO YOUR BATHROOMS BIGOT".

Also, in a strict term of reference, the product of crossed brain wires can be feasibly categorized as "delusion". It's accurate, but the word itself carries a lot of attendant baggage with it.

 

[Doomsought]

Also, in a strict term of reference, the product of crossed brain wires can be feasibly categorized as "delusion". It's accurate, but the word itself carries a lot of attendant baggage with it.

Given all the other problems that are associated with the disorder, it shows up to pick up the baggage.

 

[ShieldWife]

I actually want to answer this in some detail completely unrelated to the subject of this thread; could you start a new thread in the Athenaeum and I could post a reply there? It contains some very good observations and I wish to answer with a few of my own.

It’s done

https://www.the-sietch.com/index.php?threads/moral-obligations-and-parenthood.432/