Transgender Rights

[Chaos Marine]

Nah I'm also attracted to non-binaries.

*Snip*

That doesn't change or invalidate my statement since only the male and female sexes exist.

 

[Kitsune9]

Oh, you’re absolutely right about the paper. It’s solely in the gendered terminology that’s used. To be honest, it would be offensive... But it’s also an old scientific paper. If I got offended by the terminology in old scientific papers I would both be more ignorant and unable to use them to support my argument. And I detest the daily “five minute hate” attitude anyway.

I feel like I'm completely missing your point but I guess you can correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't see how he can do a scientific study about sex and gender without going into sex and gender terminology during the paper.

I know that probably sounds really dumb to someone who's studied the topic but to me telling someone to avoid gendered language in a paper that studies the statistical differences in the transgender community including the original sex of the subject seems like a good way to make that paper completely useless as anything other then a feel good fluff piece that most people won't ever read.

 

[Deleted member]

I feel like I'm completely missing your point but I guess you can correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't see how he can do a scientific study about sex and gender without going into sex and gender terminology during the paper.

I know that probably sounds really dumb to someone who's studied the topic but to me telling someone to avoid gendered language in a paper that studies the statistical differences in the transgender community including the original sex of the subject seems like a good way to make that paper completely useless as anything other then a feel good fluff piece that most people won't ever read.

It would be possible to use different language that still conveys meaning appropriately; for example, XY Sex-Inversed Female was used as a still scientifically precise term for MTF transsexual in a few publications I can recall. However, you are slightly missing the point, Sir, which is that the scientific relevance mostly wouldn't matter to the kind of people who would be so upset by it as to refuse to read or cite it.

 

[Kitsune9]

Well if I was only slightly missing the point that's better then I had thought I was doing,

 

[ReeeFallin]

It also has a very notable effect on causing suicides during the period of said indulgence being granted. These people are not well and need help getting over their issues. Having them transition only creates problems as shown with them having a high discharge and ban rate in the armed forces, the age-old bathroom question and of course the fact it leads to an unhealthy amount of violence when people who were looking for straight relationships realize that they've been had by what is essentially a mutilated cardboard cut out of what they were after to begin with.

You're right, there is a high suicide rate among people who've had the surgery. This suicide rate is also lower than in the same demographic, but for people who have not had surgery.

False, it cripples the majority of cases where the patient would recover form the mental illness during puberty.

When has that ever demonstrably happened?

 

[Doomsought]

When has that ever demonstrably happened?

Look at the top of this page.

 

[ReeeFallin]

Look at the top of this page.

That's a 341 page document. Could you give me a page number or copy an excerpt?

 

[Doomsought]

That's a 341 page document. Could you give me a page number or copy an excerpt?

From the abstract on the second page:

This study provided information on the long term psychosexual and psychiatric outcomes of 139 boys with gender identity disorder (GID). Standardized assessment data in childhood (mean age, 7.49 years; range, 3–12years) and at follow-up (mean age, 20.58years; range, 13–39 years) were used to evaluate gender identity and sexual orientation outcome. . . . With gender identity and sexual orientation combined, the most common long-term outcome was desistence of GID with a bisexual/homosexual sexual orientation followed by desistence of GID with a heterosexual sexual orientation.

 

[Deleted member]

@ReeeFallin basically, what @Doomsought 's study proves is that unless diagnostic criteria are substantially changed from those currently in force, transition in children is highly likely to lead to false positives of people undergoing invasive hormone therapy and surgery who would identify as homosexual instead (or even straight in some cases), if the gender identity disorder diagnosis and treatment had not been followed. This strongly suggests that the safest and most appropriate course of action is to restrict transition therapies to adults unless improved diagnostic criteria eliminate this risk.

I hope that summarises it well.

 

[LordsFire]

@ReeeFallin basically, what @Doomsought 's study proves is that unless diagnostic criteria are substantially changed from those currently in force, transition in children is highly likely to lead to false positives of people undergoing invasive hormone therapy and surgery who would identify as homosexual instead (or even straight in some cases), if the gender identity disorder diagnosis and treatment had not been followed. This strongly suggests that the safest and most appropriate course of action is to restrict transition therapies to adults unless improved diagnostic criteria eliminate this risk.

I hope that summarises it well.

This is one of those things that the hard-line activists on the 'trans' side of things will suppress, hard. Probably call it a 'hate-fact' if that hasn't fallen completely out of style yet.

It really says something that the required and only valid way to deal with this, according to the people trying to set the narrative right now, is just about the most extreme option possible.

 

[Kitsune9]

@ReeeFallin basically, what @Doomsought 's study proves is that unless diagnostic criteria are substantially changed from those currently in force, transition in children is highly likely to lead to false positives of people undergoing invasive hormone therapy and surgery who would identify as homosexual instead (or even straight in some cases), if the gender identity disorder diagnosis and treatment had not been followed. This strongly suggests that the safest and most appropriate course of action is to restrict transition therapies to adults unless improved diagnostic criteria eliminate this risk.

I hope that summarises it well.

That makes sense to me in a way given how there are adds on you tube talking about people that have transitioned and then requested help to DE-transition because it wasn't what they wanted.

 

[Deleted member]

This is one of those things that the hard-line activists on the 'trans' side of things will suppress, hard. Probably call it a 'hate-fact' if that hasn't fallen completely out of style yet.

It really says something that the required and only valid way to deal with this, according to the people trying to set the narrative right now, is just about the most extreme option possible.

Multiple studies have unambiguously demonstrated that "primary transsexualism" doesn't go away, and the only effective treatment is transition. Multiple studies have also demonstrated that "secondary transsexuals" (usually called transgenders in the modern day) have the maximum benefit from not transitioning. This work was done in the 80s and 90s and led to a careful, reasonable system of screening and differential diagnosis which resulted in a very high success rate.

This entire system was then thrown out by the political transgenderist movement in the past ten years, and that's where our current problems come from. It's quite certain that the etiology of primary transsexualism and transgenderism is very different.

 

[Edgeplay_cgo]

And this is why the first step of my suggestions is pretty much always "require a diagnosis to get treatment". A "Great Filter" to weed out the "transtrenders" who don't actually need it and are most likely come to regret the irreparable damage done to their bodies, especially if the social tide turns against them.

This is one of the things that distresses me about the current Transgender Craze. It is a craze, an out of control social movement. In the "Old Days" (How I miss the Diptheria.) transition was very difficult, with lots of hoops to clear. Today, it seems adequate to declare yourself in transition and begin chemical treatments. People get in over their heads, particularly children. There is a lot to be said for paying one's dues, and commonly penalties for not doing so. Sometimes, permanent penalties.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

This is one of the things that distresses me about the current Transgender Craze. It is a craze, an out of control social movement. In the "Old Days" (How I miss the Diptheria.) transition was very difficult, with lots of hoops to clear. Today, it seems adequate to declare yourself in transition and begin chemical treatments. People get in over their heads, particularly children. There is a lot to be said for paying one's dues, and commonly penalties for not doing so. Sometimes, permanent penalties.

Hopefully De-Transition Surgery and Treatment is made and becomes something that can be more easily and less expensively done

I’m pretty sure a number of Crazy SJW types who weren’t even Trans or even gay or lesbian in the first place, have already undergone said surgeries and may experience ACTUAL gender dysphoria and other bodily problems

 

[Doomsought]

I’m pretty sure a number of Crazy SJW types who weren’t even Trans or even gay or lesbian in the first place, have already undergone said surgeries and may experience ACTUAL gender dysphoria and other bodily problems

Its like political lesbians, but with surgery, so I'm not sure they can't just hate their way through any form of dysphoria.

 

[Edgeplay_cgo]

Hopefully De-Transition Surgery and Treatment is made and becomes something that can be more easily and less expensively done

The problem is, that there is hystereis in the loop. Unlike compressing and releasing a spring, you can't return to the starting point. At this time, you can't replace testes or ovaries, and most of the surgery can be only imperfectly fixed.

I’m pretty sure a number of Crazy SJW types who weren’t even Trans or even gay or lesbian in the first place, have already undergone said surgeries and may experience ACTUAL gender dysphoria and other bodily problems

That would be poetic justice, wouldn't it.

 

[Sol Zagato]

I feel bad for genetic women who look like hons* in this era. Now everyone will wonder if they're trans, whereas previously they would have just been considered mannish, handsome or ugly.

*This can even be subtle ones, like one lady I know who grew up doing manual labor on a farm and has big forearms and hands as a consequence. Elite athletes will get hit especially hard.

 

[Edgeplay_cgo]

I feel bad for genetic women who look like hons* in this era. Now everyone will wonder if they're trans, whereas previously they would have just been considered mannish, handsome or ugly.

*This can even be subtle ones, like one lady I know who grew up doing manual labor on a farm and has big forearms and hands as a consequence. Elite athletes will get hit especially hard.

I know what you mean. She was what she self described as a "big boned peasant woman." This was before the Trans Fad, though, although we knew several of them.

 

[Arch Dornan]

I have read of another individual who after the treatment that damaged their body's vocal cords eventually went down a downward spiral to overdose on chemicals.

Anyone know of Remilia a LoL player?

 

[Deleted member]

I have read of another individual who after the treatment that damaged their body's vocal cords eventually went down a downward spiral to overdose on chemicals.

Anyone know of Remilia a LoL player?

Yes, that was unfortunate. Especially considering vocal surgery has been known for decades to be unnecessary and extremely risky; training alone produces a normal female voice if rigorously followed, however, until recently the science was not understood so it was word of mouth in the community without professionals teaching it. Unscrupulous doctors took advantage of this to offer surgeries that frequently caused vocal chord damage and produced worse quality than training alone.