The Worst Scifi and Fantasy Governmnets

Agent23

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So TL;DR a few examples in The Worst Scifi and Fantasy Militaries were generally competent overall, however political meddling, corruption and incompetence basically shot them in the foot repeatedly.

Also, we have discussed SF&F military incompetence before, in a bunch of threads and a bunch of forums, but governmental?
Not so much.

So, I nominate:

The Human Governmnets in Ringo's Legacy of the Aldenata series, who sold out humanity to a bunch of psycho Vulkans.

The Babylon 5 Earth Alliance for sending a total moron out to scout the territory of the Minbari.

The Federation, because The Federation.

The Legislatorialists and the Sollies from Honor Harrington.

The idiot international UN conspiracy that unleashed a zombification virus in the Mazerunner series and the Panem government, since YA dystopia was covered.

The Enclave from Fallout.
 
Practically any government in the Exalted setting because a whole bunch of cursed god-kings with ego issues totally aren't going to screw this up six ways to Sunday. Honest, pinky swear with a kiss.
 
The Old and New Republics, the latter is inept in both the old EU, aka Legends, and the New canon.

Mostly any human government facing a Zombie outbreaks of the shambling and stupid variety.
 
Well, pretty much any YA government because if they were at all competent, a group of schoolkids wouldn't be the ones saving the world. The Ministry of Magic is especially egregious, as they suddenly become competent whenever they're being oppressive but are selectively useless whenever they're trying to actually do anything good. A significant percentage of said YA governments are in the business of having said schoolkids murder each other on live TV for entertainment purposes, Panem and The Republic of Greater East Asia from Battle Royale being notable offenders.

I'd have to nominate the Iron Throne from ASoIaF as the worst I can think of off the top of my head though, it's corrupt at every level, incompetent at every level, actively malevolent, and really only exists due to author fiat as in any sane world all members would wind up decorating spikes on a wall in short order instead of getting a pass on all sorts of stuff that wouldn't fly in any realistic setting.
 
It depends a ton on what you mean by "the worst".

I mean the Solarian League from Honor Harrington were perfectly functional and doing their jobs just fine until a technological sea change along with hostile enemy action fucked them over hard.

Without the multi drive missile and grav pulse, the SLN (for all its issues) was still more than a match for every other (non-Solarian League) military in known space combined and those are both quite new technologies that upset a technological paradigm that had lasted centuries.

Even then, it was the Mesan Alignment that engineered war between the SL and Manties. Without their intervention, the war would have never occurred and the League would have had more than enough time to adapt to the changed situation.

For all of the League governments issues, it was still doing its job just fine and it was deliberately engineered to have basically all of those issues.

And even then, its failure state was after one of its founding members betrayed it and fundamentally broke the system.

You have a much better case for the Legislatorialists being a shitty government as it was spectacularly failing to do its intended job.
 
If we're looking at Honor Harrington Governments, I'd nominate the Peoples Republic of Haven.

There's a reason they didn't last all that long.
 
If we're looking at Honor Harrington Governments, I'd nominate the Peoples Republic of Haven.

There's a reason they didn't last all that long.
You mean the Committee of Public Safety?

It was utterly evil in many respects but I wouldn't call it incompetent really.

When it came to power, it inherited the worst war humanity had ever seen, a population conditioned to refuse to work, a history of extraordinarily corrupt governance, and a popular mandate that shackled it in many respects.

And for all of that? They were still winning until the Buttercup tech came along (or at least not losing).

A good two thirds of what made the Republic of Haven work was the product of Pierre and Saint-Just and the end result is basically what they wanted. Take Pierre at the very start, tell him everything that he would do, tell him that he would be remembered as an abomination on par with Hitler, and that the result would be the Republic and he would accept that price. Saint-Just is the same in that respect; personal power was never the motivation for either of them.

The Navy had to be broken and purged, without doing that everything else is pointless because it will enforce the Legislatorialists on Haven and basically everyone above the rank of Captain is drawn from the ranks of those families. So raw numbers with terror at their backs are thrown into the crucible of war to buy time to gain an entirely new generation of officers and soldiers who are divorced from the old regime.

Haven needed an education system worth the name, but it had lacked one for generations. So it used the military to create one. Military discipline was used to teach masses of people what was needed, get them used to work, get them motivated, and then let them filter back into the civilian sectors to provide an educated class that could fix that flawed education system.

The same issue applies to the idea of getting people to work in the first place. Pierre got himself a popular mandate that was perfectly ok with him mass slaughtering his own citizens as "enemies of the people" if they tried to protest being told "work or starve to death".

By the time Theisman came along and removed Saint-Just it was to take over a Haven that was far better off in virtually every respect than it had been since before the PRH became a thing. It was progress and reform won with the blood of countless millions but it was still accomplished.

And the CPS left its successor with infinitely more legitimacy and an example of what not to be. Haven has basically an entire generation of pragmatic idealists committed to the ideal of Haven. In a great many respects, the CPS created the "Founding Fathers" of Haven.

Which, if you go back to the creation of the CPS was essentially what is was conceived of to do.

-x-x-x-

For the Honorverse, Masada is probably the best example of a fucked up and incompetent government that constantly makes things worse and fails to achieve anything.
 
And the CPS left its successor with infinitely more legitimacy and an example of what not to be. Haven has basically an entire generation of pragmatic idealists committed to the ideal of Haven. In a great many respects, the CPS created the "Founding Fathers" of Haven.

Which, if you go back to the creation of the CPS was essentially what is was conceived of to do.

I can see what you're saying, but I don't agree. I'm of the opinion that Pierre and Saint-Just were, in fact, trying to create the Republic that followed them, sure.

But, they weren't trying to do it by being the example of what not to do. They were trying to get there themselves. They didn't want to be the monsters that would be looked at as what not to do, they started as wanting to be the hero, the "Founding Fathers" themselves. They failed at being the good guys so well, the rebound was to being better than any current nation, world wide.


I do agree, Masada was a nightmare and a half, who failed pretty much from their founding. A very interesting contrast with Greyson, I thought.
 
I can see what you're saying, but I don't agree. I'm of the opinion that Pierre and Saint-Just were, in fact, trying to create the Republic that followed them, sure.

But, they weren't trying to do it by being the example of what not to do. They were trying to get there themselves. They didn't want to be the monsters that would be looked at as what not to do, they started as wanting to be the hero, the "Founding Fathers" themselves. They failed at being the good guys so well, the rebound was to being better than any current nation, world wide.

You don't create the CPS without a full understanding of just how horrific it is going to be. Saint-Just was the 2IC of the PRH's secret police, he was literally at the absolute highest level of the PRH. He didn't betray them for power, or because he wanted to rule, or for the lulz. He did it because he saw it as necessary for the survival of Haven and with a full understanding of how horrifically bloody it would be.

Pierre might have had some doubts but he went into it knowing that he was going to have to purge millions at the least and flatly admitting that they would have to work with people they despised at the meeting that founded the CPS.

Honestly, if you read the Pierre viewpoints from the later parts of his reign I'm not actually sure he would want to be seen as the hero. He absolutely despises what he is doing and would probably think anyone acclaiming him a hero with sincerity is either 1) too stupid to live or 2) so insane that they need to be purged for the good of everyone.

At the end, however they got there, they did give Haven exactly the kind of government that they desired and did secure its future; accomplishing the goals that government was founded for.


-x-x-x-
On in the shit governments category, the Necromongers from the Chronicles of Riddick. "You keep what you kill" is really not how you should run an interstellar empire.

The Ministry of Magic from Harry Potter is massively incompetent but does have the issue of trying to govern a population of reality warpers living behind a masquerade on an Earth that doesn't know they exist; so they probably deserve something of a pass. I mean once you start thinking about what HP magic makes possible, you either get what is basically a fascist police state with zero freedom or a government that is only able to govern so long as the people being governed find it moderately convenient.
 
You mean the Committee of Public Safety?

It was utterly evil in many respects but I wouldn't call it incompetent really.

When it came to power, it inherited the worst war humanity had ever seen, a population conditioned to refuse to work, a history of extraordinarily corrupt governance, and a popular mandate that shackled it in many respects.

And for all of that? They were still winning until the Buttercup tech came along (or at least not losing).

A good two thirds of what made the Republic of Haven work was the product of Pierre and Saint-Just and the end result is basically what they wanted. Take Pierre at the very start, tell him everything that he would do, tell him that he would be remembered as an abomination on par with Hitler, and that the result would be the Republic and he would accept that price. Saint-Just is the same in that respect; personal power was never the motivation for either of them.

The Navy had to be broken and purged, without doing that everything else is pointless because it will enforce the Legislatorialists on Haven and basically everyone above the rank of Captain is drawn from the ranks of those families. So raw numbers with terror at their backs are thrown into the crucible of war to buy time to gain an entirely new generation of officers and soldiers who are divorced from the old regime.

Haven needed an education system worth the name, but it had lacked one for generations. So it used the military to create one. Military discipline was used to teach masses of people what was needed, get them used to work, get them motivated, and then let them filter back into the civilian sectors to provide an educated class that could fix that flawed education system.

The same issue applies to the idea of getting people to work in the first place. Pierre got himself a popular mandate that was perfectly ok with him mass slaughtering his own citizens as "enemies of the people" if they tried to protest being told "work or starve to death".

By the time Theisman came along and removed Saint-Just it was to take over a Haven that was far better off in virtually every respect than it had been since before the PRH became a thing. It was progress and reform won with the blood of countless millions but it was still accomplished.

And the CPS left its successor with infinitely more legitimacy and an example of what not to be. Haven has basically an entire generation of pragmatic idealists committed to the ideal of Haven. In a great many respects, the CPS created the "Founding Fathers" of Haven.

Which, if you go back to the creation of the CPS was essentially what is was conceived of to do.

-x-x-x-

For the Honorverse, Masada is probably the best example of a fucked up and incompetent government that constantly makes things worse and fails to achieve anything.

The biggest problem with the likes of Saint-Just was that they did not clean out the corrupt thugs from the former InSec, they made the situation worse.

He was IIRC something of a paranoid control freak.

Rob Pierre was even sympathetic by comparison.

It depends a ton on what you mean by "the worst".

I mean the Solarian League from Honor Harrington were perfectly functional and doing their jobs just fine until a technological sea change along with hostile enemy action fucked them over hard.

Without the multi drive missile and grav pulse, the SLN (for all its issues) was still more than a match for every other (non-Solarian League) military in known space combined and those are both quite new technologies that upset a technological paradigm that had lasted centuries.

Even then, it was the Mesan Alignment that engineered war between the SL and Manties. Without their intervention, the war would have never occurred and the League would have had more than enough time to adapt to the changed situation.
What?
I mean, I stopped around At All Costs and the 2nd Shadow of Saganami novel, but the Solarian govrnment was a totally dysfunctional, corrupt mess run by the Mesans and several other big interests.
It basically gobbled up everything and cared nothing about the new systems it annexed.

Did you read Eric Flint's stuff in the Honorverse, btw?

For all of the League governments issues, it was still doing its job just fine and it was deliberately engineered to have basically all of those issues.

And even then, its failure state was after one of its founding members betrayed it and fundamentally broke the system.
Their navy was pretty massively mismanaged and basically used as a big slushfund and a way to give favored relatives plum posts.
 
The biggest problem with the likes of Saint-Just was that they did not clean out the corrupt thugs from the former InSec, they made the situation worse.

He was IIRC something of a paranoid control freak.

Rob Pierre was even sympathetic by comparison.

Actually, Saint-Just did purge the corrupt thugs of InSec. They were too loyal to the old regime, or at least not loyal to the Committee. He just went and replaced them with the stupid, uneducated, dolist thugs that CPS propaganda worked very well on and could be easily convinced to see the people the CPS wanted seen as enemies, were seen as enemies.

StateSec needed a relative handful of smart, competent, motivated people but for the vast majority of their needs; thugs too dumb to think were exactly what they wanted.

The first step for the CPS was always going to be, and had to be, purging the Navy of those loyal to the old regime. Seeing as the middle and senior ranks of the officer core were virtually all members of the ruling families of the old regime that meant you were going to have to basically gut your military while still fighting the largest war humanity has ever seen. Morale is absolutely going to tank and a hell of a lot of critical knowledge and skills are going to be missing. The only realistic way to keep the Navy fighting in such a situation is to make them fear the consequences of not fighting more than the probable fate of fighting. The Manties will probably kill you if you fight, StateSec will kill you, your family, your friends, and your pet dog if you don't fight the Manties to the death; suddenly the choice is so very easy.

StateSec being thugs who engender hatred is also great for ensuring that neither faction is able to make common cause with the other outside of official sanction.

The plan was for StateSec to rule by fear and keep the boot firmly on the neck of the Navy until the first generation of true believers who were enlisted/recruited post CPS rise to power, with no ties to the old regime, and who didn't personally experience the purges were ready for higher rank. You recruit for ambition as much as loyalty to provide the extra personal incentive to accept it when you purge the last of the old officers for their elitest beliefs and promote those new officiers to fill the empty spots.

Then, once you have a military that you can actually trust you use them as the support you need to purge StateSec and reform it.

What?
I mean, I stopped around At All Costs and the 2nd Shadow of Saganami novel, but the Solarian govrnment was a totally dysfunctional, corrupt mess run by the Mesans and several other big interests.
It basically gobbled up everything and cared nothing about the new systems it annexed.

The Solarian League Government was supposed to be basically totally dysfunctional and corrupt. The member systems deliberately made a government that had no taxing authority, no ability to intervene in the internal affairs of the member systems (with a bare handful of exceptions that were carefully delineated), no foreign policy beyond "don't cause problems for the SL's member systems and we don't smash you", and every member system having veto authority over basically everything.

Yes, OFS was out conquering worlds. But what was it actually doing? Creating captive markets for league corporations, with the wealth flowing into SL member systems and OFS getting enough skimmed off the top to keep the central "government" sufficiently funded without having to up taxes on any League citizens or systems.

Did you read Eric Flint's stuff in the Honorverse, btw?
Yes.

Their navy was pretty massively mismanaged and basically used as a big slushfund and a way to give favored relatives plum posts.
And despite that, it was still casually able to crush any combination of foreign powers at will right up until fundamentally new technology obsoleted everything that came before. And still, the SLN would have regained its old primacy in a few years if Mesa hadn't deliberately started the war.

Remember, Mesa wanted the League destroyed. So they used multiple centuries worth of infiltration and deep cover operatives to get the war started before the SLN could fix the problem.

Don't get me wrong, the SL was massively corrupt and in many respects a horrid government but it was generally fit for purpose and achieving what it was created to do.

----
Imagine designing a government to preserve noble privilege and then calling it the worst democracy around. Its somewhat hard to make that argument credibly when the government was never intended to be an actual democracy.

The same applies to a lot of the "worst" governments in Sci-Fi/Fantasy. They were created to serve an end that is not advantaged by "good" governance. So do we judge them based on how "good" the governance they provide is or on how effectively they accomplish the ends that they were created to serve.
 
Well,If Solarian League was created to be ruled by corporations and bureaucracy,then it worked perfectly.
And,Necromongers were made for suicidal crusade which get them all killed,so - they served its goal,too.
 
I still disagree on the CPS, I think it was an attempt to go directly to the Republic that came after, and while it broke all the things in the way of that, there was no way it could have built..... anything good. At all.

When we get a look into Pierre's head, and a few other's at the top of the CPS, you see a bunch who wanted to make things better, and some power mad monsters, of course. I have to admit, I felt a little sorry for Pierre, when I got to see him thinking "I wanted to make a better world, and now all I can do is barely limit the amount of collateral damage as everything gets smashed."

You're certainly right about Saint-Just, though. Seen as the next Hitler, but in return the Republic Get Gud? Sure, no problem!


As far as I'm concerned, the CPS was a massive fire, sweeping away the deadwood, and a bit more. It was only when the counter burn put the fire out, could something good begin.



Anyway, moving on! Battletech. The Clans. They're completely nuts, horrible, unstable, and somehow always have better tech and the like, despite making decisions via killing each other as the standard way.

If their Plot Armor wasn't so absurdly thick.......
 
Anyway, moving on! Battletech. The Clans. They're completely nuts, horrible, unstable, and somehow always have better tech and the like, despite making decisions via killing each other as the standard way.

If their Plot Armor wasn't so absurdly thick.......

Yeah, they are a solid contender for one of the worst basically however you decide to measure that.
 
Panem is easily the worst, a literal self-righteous capitol on the hill run by a bunch of snobish elitist pricks who force their provinces populations to live as virtual starving serfs to serve their self-interest while simultaneously forcing those provinces to send their children to fight in a gladiatorial style death game which will be boadcast on live TV.

Doing all of that while simultaneously having the tech to pull off almost bullshit medical, pharmaceutical, and scientific miracles and yet despite that, being inept enough that even with those miracles they can't even put a bullet in a teenage girl who's only weapon is a bow.

Don't get me started on the whole fiasco of how District 13 was able to turn Nuclear Weapons on the Capitol! I mean how did no one see that coming?!!!

"Let's make one of those districts we treat like sh*t make all of our nuclear weapons by themselves without divesting any of their capability to manufacture them into other districts just to avoid the possibility of them rising in a rebellion!"

...I mean come on!!!
 
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There's a reason, well, there's quite a few reasons why I didn't finish that series. Fuck, it was stupid and depressing.


And people call Worm Grimdark.

Worm is Grimdark - but,more logical.Entities acts in logical way/for them/,and that why they could be killed.
 
Actually, Saint-Just did purge the corrupt thugs of InSec. They were too loyal to the old regime, or at least not loyal to the Committee. He just went and replaced them with the stupid, uneducated, dolist thugs that CPS propaganda worked very well on and could be easily convinced to see the people the CPS wanted seen as enemies, were seen as enemies.

StateSec needed a relative handful of smart, competent, motivated people but for the vast majority of their needs; thugs too dumb to think were exactly what they wanted.
Tell that to Victor Cachat. I am sure that he would agree after his little trip to the le Martin sector(one of the short stories by Flint. and also I think that the one that introduced him and Zilwiki also dealt with massive StateSec corruption and incompetence, but don't quote me on that.)
Drug running, rape, insane sadism...

Oh, and we also have the whole disgusting situation on that secret Prison Planet that did not get cleaned up after the coup.

What was it, one of that Legislaturist admiral/CNO's subordinates getting nails hammered through the skull by the chief of the camp?
That guy IIRC was specifically kept around because he was one of the few competent high ranking officers around.

Saint-Just just made the pack of sadists and corrupt rapists more powerful and larger.

Rob Pierre did jack shit to fix it.
 

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