The Warframe Debunk thread (Revised)

[Scooby Doo]

#Debunking number 5. Warframes ARE DESTINY PARACASUAL THEY CAN DO LITERALLY EVERYTHING GUARDIANS DO AND MOAR CAUSE VOID IZ OP PARDIIIJEEEEEDDJDJSJZN!!!

Is Warframe Paracasual?

No, now let's break this to easy and simple to understand terms. What is Paracausality

According to the content released for Shadowkeep. Golden Age Humanity described it as

"Correlation detected between events with no plausible causal relationship under closed monist physics, but a plausible relationship under another conceivable system of cause and effect"

The original prefix definition of "Para" is defined as "Next to" and "Side by Side" and generally (With some exceptions) would mean "Parallel".

What is Causality?
"The relationship between cause and effect."

Ex: "Relationship between two events, or variables, in which one event or process causes an effect on the other event or process."

Then we have this example of a monologue of a Guardian and how their Paracasuallity can defy the conventional laws of physics.

It reminds me of my place in the universe. It reminds me of every force that acts on me, every "law" of motion I can or can't break. I'm most interested in the ones I can't break, honestly. Considering I am myself an aberration of the laws of physics, I rather like finding the edges of things. -Approaching Infinity

This is where people come to the conclusion oh Paracasuallity is just space magic therefore Void which breaks physics is the exact same!

Paracausality operates under its OWN system of rules and is not entirely beholden to the known rules of the universe (For example there are SOME laws of motion a Guardian can't break but others they can which fits with the traits of being Paracasual), it's unlikely that the Void operates under the same rules as Destiny's and there is nothing to prove that they do.

BUT we do have PROOF to suggest that the Void DOESN'T operate under the same rules and if they don't operate by the same rules as Destiny then logic dictates they are NOT "Destiny" Paracasual and are at best a CHEAP copy.

Now we need to go one step further before the debunk to establish a bigger difference between the two and why they're not fundamentally the same.

1. Who created Paracasuallity in Destiny?
2. Examples of being who are Paracasual.

1. Paracausality was created by both the Gardner and the Darkness during the "Flower Game"

"No," the gardener said, "I am the growth and preservation of complexity. I will make myself into a law in the game."

And thus we two became parts of the game, and the laws of the game became nomic and open to change by our influence. And I had only one purpose and one principle in the game. And I could do nothing but continue to enact that purpose, because it was all that I was and ever would be.

Paracasuallity was specifically designed to counter the Vex victory spree and made Paracasuallity rule that quite literally gathered strength from being a deviation of the norm but being balanced by the creators via a set of unknown rules.

"A special new rule. Something to…" The gardener threw up their hands in exasperation. "I don't know. To reward those who make space for new complexity. A power that helps those who make strength from heterodoxy, and who steer the game away from gridlock. Something to ensure there's always someone building something new. It'll have to be separate from the rest of the rules, running in parallel, so it can't be compromised. And we'll have to be very careful, so it doesn't disrupt the whole game…"

Notice the description? It's matching the ones provided by Golden Age Humanity and the prefix "Para". Notice that Gardner says Paracasuallity can't be compromised by the "Rest of the Rules" this means while Paracasuallity has its own set of rules it is superior to that of the "Regular" physics which matches up with what the Hive described when they fought a faction with Paracasual weapons.

We knew curiosity would draw you back, Auryx. In their desperation, the Ammonite have begun using paracausal weapons.

What are these? How do they work? Wouldn't you like to know. Suffice to say that some powers in this universe are superordinate to mere material physics.

The source of these weapons is the Traveler, the Sky's bait star. Their effect is subtle, but devastating.

2. Who are Paracasual? Pretty much beings who have a connection with the Traveler or Darkness so.

• The Traveler and its chosen
• The Witness and its servants
• Those who don't serve either or but learned to manipulate their power (Ex: The Exo Stranger or Ahsha)

Who are NOT Paracasual?

• The Cabal (Pre-Red War)
• Psions (Pre-Red War)
• Fallen (Pre-Beyond Light)
• The Vex (No Sol Divisive)

And what's interesting is that the non Paracasual entities are capable of performing feats that break physics yet this doesn't make them Paracasual, for example.

Calus was able to eat Neutron Star Matter

I have seen Calus feast on things no living mouth can eat. A chill superfluid of helium-4, whorled in his cup for ten years by a single turn of his wrist: he returned a decade later to toss it back. Or a pea of neutronium that should have torn through him like fog. He told me it tasted like the thickest fudge.

A violation of Newton's law of universal gravitation


The Psion's can spawn energy out of nothing

Smaller ships flock like parasites around a centerpiece flagship. points to it, a Cabal carrier-class warship. "Glykon Volatus." She touches her finger to the yard's perimeter barrier and says, "Over," as if directing an animal. Qinziq flattens her palm against the ground and displaces the radiolarian saturation with a bubble of Void energy

A violation of law of conservation of energy
The Fallen have Taniks come back to several life after getting killed FIVE times by Guardians.

Eventually, he was the subject of a Hunter's Dare from Cayde to Andal Brask; whoever killed Taniks would win the Dare, and the loser would be forced to become the Hunter Vanguard. Cayde-6 killed Taniks, causing Andal Brask to lose the Dare and become the Hunter Vanguard. However, Taniks did not actually die, returning later to kill Andal Brask, which provoked Cayde-6 to hunt him down and kill him again. This resulted in Cayde's promotion to Hunter Vanguard.

But Taniks, who by now was known for survival, returned and freed Aksor, a notable Fallen Archon, from the Prison of Elders.

Violation of Death by refusing to die

Vex creating singularities by inputting more information that can fit in a finite space.

Vex sometimes pack enough energy and information into a small area of spacetime to collapse it into kugelblitz black hole like the one you can see outside.

Violation of several laws of physics but one notable one being the Bekenstein Bound


So defying death like Taniks (Inaros/Sevagoth) being extremely resilient and strong like Calus (Atlas) even creating energy like Qinziq (Ember) or packing tons of energy into a small area to create massive destruction like the Vex (Nova) isn't enough to be considered Paracasual in Destiny.


But what we do know thanks to Savathun that the Guardians and Hive Gods are Paracasual.

So what best way to hammer in the point than by mentioning their most unique trait in the setting? Paracasual entities are NOT bound by fate, because of this trait they can not be predicted by Vex OR effected by time manipulation as Paracasuallity is a specific counter measure to it.

By now, Quria knows it can't win.

There's something pathological about the world inside Oryx's ship. It resists analysis with hot, dead spite. And Oryx himself, he's irreducible — he refuses to obey Quria's simulations, he crashes around sowing chaos, he grabs subminds and compromises them with some kind of ontological weapon. Paracausal systems. Very problematic.

The Taken King marches on Quria's Hydra-hull, armed with blade and magic, cloaked in ancient cloth, and the universe wails in horror around him. Quria's physics models and toy worlds choke and crash.

Quiria was a Vex Hydra who are said to have impressive computational abilities compared to other high end Vex

The Hydra chassis common to many Vex Axis Minds boasts impressive computational capacity.

A Fodder Goblin is able to simulate an entire universe indistinguishable from the real one which requires extreme precisions and predictive abilities.

SUNDARESH: If we're sims, we exist in the pocket of the universe that the Vex specimen is able to simulate with its onboard brainpower. If we're real, we need to get outside that bubble.

Guardians are confirmed to make their own fate twice and are confirmed to not be affected by Time loops/preordination.

2. The three-week loop must be a failsafe measure to keep Dûl Incaru safe as she pursues her mission. In a sense, this entire city has been rendered deterministic; only paracausal Guardians have any free will here. (The Awoken here have been touched by greater powers, so they are aware of their preordination, but they cannot alter it.) I'm certain that Quria is behind this loop; as a Taken Vex, it's capable of pathological subversions of reality. I'll continue working on a countermeasure.

This is important because Warframes are explicitly affected by Time Loops from Protea

Confirmed by Tenshin to be beholden to Fate without direct interference from outside help.

And confirmed to be able to not escape the time loop established by Ballas without outside assistance.

So in summary

1. Breaking Physics isn't enough to be Paracasual
2. Not being bound by Fate or Time IS a criteria to be considered Paracasual.
3.The Tenno are bound by both Fate and Time with out special aid or assistance.
4. The Gardener and Darkness created Paracasuallity specifically for the game they were playing in their universe with established Rules, the Void from Warframe wasn't so they're incomparable in purpose and design.

 

[Scooby Doo]

Looks like I have to do a continuation of the Atlas Debunk of the Atlas asteroid feat again.

I'll repeat

Atlas DOES NOT have legitimate asteroid busting strength, to be even more clear he does NOT strike with GIGATONS tons worth of force or ANYWHERE CLOSE to that.

Spoiler: Full Atlas lore Post, READ HERE IF YOU DOUBT SOURCE THIS IS LITERALLY WORD FOR WORD

This is Atlas. Hard as stone. Is it any surprise that his story begins with an asteroid?

Temple Telamon had cast a spell on the indentured masses with a song that heralded the coming of a great stone destroyer. A god who would shatter the world and lead them to a great rebirth. The Orokin mocked the cult's off-key singing, their spasmodic dancing, but the spell only grew stronger. Telamon broadcasts would oft-times wedge into controlled channels to spread their doomsday message.

For the suffocated lower castes, the notion of something more powerful than their Orokin masters must have been intoxicating. A brutal Orokin crackdown seemed to be working, until... an asteroid was detected on a collision course with Earth. The Telamons celebrated it as prophecy writ true. Divine intervention. For the first time in living memory, the Orokin showed vulnerability.

It did not matter that the destruction would be total. For the Temple, this was a sign of a new age -Introduction

A probe was sent to the asteroid, perhaps seeking proof of divine intervention. It found intervention, though it was anything but divine.

The rock had been fitted with colossal steering thrusters and manning those thrusters, a bevy of well-armed Telamon. Having taken fate to their own hands, they set about a final convulsive dance aboard that rock. Battlecruisers, Orgon missiles, a gale-force of Dax... the Orokin could have resolved this in any number of ways. But their enemy was not the Telamons themselves. It was their ideas. Atlas, alone, was sent.

As he crashed onto that rock, his Shikoro helm greeted the cultists. Note the angled ballistic plating and reinforced neck protection.

He would soon need both. -Atlas Shikoro Helmet

For years, historians felt this 'Tale of Telamon' quite improbable, an artifact of Orokin propaganda-myth.

Then, on our system's outer edge, we found a debris field of small rocks and dust in a lazy elliptical orbit. Upon these rocks, we find the remains of peculiar stone statuary. The petrified figures, clearly Temple members, have been frozen into a tableau of struggle and death.

Or was it, perhaps, a dance? This remarkable find forces us to rethink the entire tale as fact. -Tableau of Telamon

The Stratum Syandana. Reserved and austere, until you turn it over and reveal the glowing hue of the amethyst crystal within.

A breathtaking geode. Imagine its spiralling ribbons as Atlas tore toward the killer asteroid's thrusters. His plan must have been to reorient them and push the rock away from Earth. But, as the story goes, as he neared, the cultists detonated the thruster's footings and sent them careening into space. They were no longer needed. Mass and inertia would carry the rock to its fate.

Atlas was out of options. Or so the Telamons thought. -Stratum Syandana

The Tekko are, perhaps my favorite pieces in this gallery. Note the intricate, ornate moldings, the complex blades. Quite the contrast from Atlas's otherwise workmanlike appearance.

The beauty and craftsmanship conceal the true purpose of the Tekko, as indentations found in cultist's skulls attest.

I have to wonder what frenzied dance would have been interrupted, or, if the whiplash strikes and jabs of the Tekko might have blended into the crowd's fitful celebration? -Tekko

Before you, a rare sight: two Rumblers, painstakingly recreated from fragments of the aforementioned Tableau.

How these inert and rigid formations are compelled to life by Atlas defies reason. Yet, it is true. Consider the confusion of those Telamons as the very stone they worshipped came to life and set upon them. How could they retaliate against such a thing?

Like sparring with a landslide.-Rumblers

Earth swelled on the horizon, as the cult mocked Atlas with their chorus: "The stone shall shatter all!"

Across the system, every Telamon echoed that final hymn. Children, as far as Neptune, turned their heads from greasy broth and gazed toward Earth. Would that careening stone change... everything? Atlas kneeled down, head and hands pressed to the ground in apparent defeat as the Telamon's hymn grew even louder.

But Atlas was listening, feeling, the way the stone trembled to the hymn's pitch. The faults within the asteroid became vivid to him... and so a new song rose up. Rumblers. Erupting in a god-like rhythm, beating along the faults until Atlas, alone, struck the final, resonant chord.

A tremor forked through the rock until, all at once, the great asteroid exploded, its dust falling as scintillating rain sparking across the atmosphere, and then... gone. The Telamon's song fell silent and children, as far as Neptune, turned away and swirled their spoons in greasy broth.- Atlas

People seem to ignore how important the striking of the fault lines are to the point they shrug it off as something that only modestly helped Atlas perform the feat.

So let's do a quick crash course on what a fault line is.

Faults are cracks in the lithosphere caused by the stresses created as sections of a plate (or two plates) are moving in different directions.

Source: Earthquake | Fault lines and plates interactions

Yes Asteroids CAN experience the equivalent of an Earthquake

"Gravitational forces during the flybys can stretch, rattle and torque these asteroids, causing dark, space-weathered material on the surface to be overturned, revealing the fresh stuff underneath," Binzel said.


Compared to quakes on Earth, asteroid-quakes would look quite minor. Binzel said an astronaut floating next to an asteroid during a tremor might notice its surface sway by a few centimeters or spot "gentle avalanches" on the space rock's steepest crater slopes.


"These asteroids experience [seismic activity] in the milli- to micro-g range," he said. "That might not sound like much, but remember these are small bodies. Gravity is not very strong, so just a little shaking or stretching goes a long way."

Source: Friday Flyby May Trigger 'Asteroid-Quake' on Space Rock

Asteroid Quakes are a REAL term and have been mentioned by NASA that even Asteroids as small as 335 meters can experience.

That knowledge will enable them to determine the orientation the asteroid will have with Earth as it encounters our planet's gravitational field in 2029, which could change that spin state and even cause "asteroid quakes."

Source: Apophis - NASA Science

Asteroid Quakes can cause pieces of the asteroid to "rise to the surface"

The researchers calculate that asteroid-quakes and impacts from smaller space rocks could jostle an asteroid enough to cause larger rocks to rise to the surface.

Source: To explain asteroid composition, scientists invoke nuts

These Quakes aka Tremors can literally shift the ground of the Asteroid

New research published in this week's Nature shows Earth's gravity triggers ground-shifting quakes on asteroids passing as far as about 30 million miles away.

Source: Earth causes asteroids to shake, rattle and roll

What's the point of all of this? Well we're establishing that asteroids are vulnerable to tremors and seismic activity JUST like how Earth fault lines are. What Atlas did in his attack was a form of induced seismic activity.

Definition of Induced Seismic Activity

Inducing a seismic event requires a triggering event that will either increase the shear stress or reduce the normal effective stress on the fault and/or reduce the fault frictional resistance, for example, an increase of the pore pressure that reduces the frictional strength to a level at which it is overcome by the driving shear stress.

Source: 2 Types and Causes of Induced Seismicity | Induced Seismicity Potential in Energy Technologies | The National Academies Press

We know he did this and that this was happening because it's literally said in the lore, actually READ the quotes instead of cherry picking and apply critical thinking.

"the way the stone trembled to the hymn's pitch."-Atlas

Context: The Cultists were doing a form of ritualistic singing, the hymn they were singing was causing the Asteroid to tremble BEFORE Atlas did anything.

"Telamon's hymn grew even louder"-Atlas

Context: The hymn that the cultists sung grew in strength which caused the Asteroid to tremble.

"Atlas kneeled down, head and hands pressed to the ground"-Atlas

Context: Atlas had to get on his knees and press his literal head against the flooring of the Asteroid to detect the fault lines.

"The faults within the asteroid became vivid to him… and so a new song rose up."-Atlas

"Rumblers. Erupting in a god-like rhythm, beating along the faults"-Atlas

Context: Atlas creates a new song aka new hymn, the previous hymn did NOT stop so it either combined with or superseded the cultist hymn that was already shaking the asteroid.

"The Telamon's song fell silent, and children, as far as Neptune, turned away and swirled their spoons in greasy broth."-Atlas

Context: The Telamon Song aka Asteroid Tremor inducing hymn ended AFTER the asteroid blew up so TWO hymn's were playing simultaneously.

"Atlas, alone, struck the final, resonant chord. A tremor forked through the rock until… all at once, the great asteroid exploded, its dust falling as scintillating rain sparking across the atmosphere"-Atlas

Context: Atlas struck the final RESONANT chord. Definition of Resonant "Produce or be filled with a deep, full, reverberating sound" this reverberating sound then created a tremor that "Forked" through the Asteroid until it blew up.

This is very explicitly a CHAIN REACTION, for those that don't know what it means here's what the dictionary says

1​

a
: a series of events so related to each other that each one initiates the next
b
: a number of events triggered by the same initial event

2​

: a self-sustaining chemical or nuclear reaction yielding energy or products that cause further reactions of the same kind

TLDR; The Hymn's of the cultists were creating tremors through the Asteroid, Atlas then began his OWN hymn which COMBINED with the cultists while he simultaneously and specifically targeted the fault lines which would have been under stress from the cultists song. The combination of both weathered/weakened the asteroid to the point that his final strike which was RESONATE (Creating sound) created a tremor (vibratory motion) that spread through the Asteroid until it blew it up.

So the chain reaction contributed more than 99% of the action, now you may say BUT THAT'S NOT POSSIBLE IT STILL NEEDS TO OVER POWER THE GRAVITY BINDING THE ASTEROID!!!! Ern no you would be arguing upon scientific principal which void energy ignores and Atlas very likely used his Landslide ability for the final strike and there is plenty of evidence suggesting that Atlas relied more on hax than pure strength for the feat.

Landslide uses void energy to create "Explosive" punches, yes Void energy is canon for abilities.

Lotus: "I see the Sentients crashing down on her, dying in overwhelming numbers. Now she's out of energy, I'm telling her to go but she's laughing, tearing their heads off as they swarm."-Hidden Messages Quest

"As for Belric and Rania, the evidence suggests they were turned to crystal by Citrine. In her final moments, the warframe chose not to flee but to use the last of her energy to preserve the pair, together, in one final embrace." -Belric Crystal Codex

"Note that this will not be a standard excavation mission. As we encountered before, this base is equipped with sensors capable of detecting large signatures of Void energy generated by more advanced warframes and weapons. With this radar in place, and the entire Grineer battalion capable of flight, their forces would overwhelm you in a matter of moments. Slip in under the radar, Tenno, and recover that Cryotic… at any cost."-Tactical Alert: Shifting Sands

2x Tremors + Fault Lines + Void Punch = Chain Reaction = Explodey Asteroid


We know the Chain Reaction did the majority of the work because he resorted to doing it at the last possible moment.

"The petrified figures, clearly Temple members, have been frozen into a tableau of struggle and death"-Tableau of Telamon

Petrified Cultists 1st action.

"Imagine its spiralling ribbons as Atlas tore toward the killer asteroid's thrusters. His plan must have been to reorient them and push the rock away from Earth."-Stratum syandana

Attempting to redirect thrusters 2nd action.

"I have to wonder what frenzied dance would have been interrupted – or, if the whiplash strikes and jabs of the Tekko might have blended into the crowd's fitful celebration?"-Tekko

3rd Action, beat up Cultists in H2H on the way to the thrusters or after reaching the thrusters.

" Consider the confusion of those Telamons as the very stone they worshipped came to life and set upon them. How could they retaliate against such a thing?"-Rumblers

4th Action, summon rumblers to beat up more cultists.

Drusus Leverian: "Earth swelled on the horizon, as the cult mocked Atlas with their chorus: 'The stone shall shatter all!' Across the System, every Telamon echoed that final hymn. Children, as far as Neptune, turned their heads from greasy broth and gazed toward Earth. Would that careening stone change… everything? Atlas kneeled down, head and hands pressed to the ground in apparent defeat as the Telamon's hymn grew even louder

5th Action, use up time trying to find the fault lines

The original goal of Atlas was to stop the asteroid, instead he wastes time killing cultists one by one and attempting to redirect an asteroid instead of just punching the ground as soon as he landed and killing everyone? Earth was on the horizon yet he still resorted to trying to find the fault lines instead of just punching the ground immediately?

What we can deduce from this is that all five actions Atlas took in addition to locating the fault lines would have been quicker for Atlas to accomplish than it would be if he had try to destroy the Asteroid under his own power without the chain reaction. For example how much percentage did the chain reaction contribute, 50%, 75%?

If the chain reaction contribution was only 50% of the damage then Atlas could have just punched the asteroid twice instead of wasting time (Atlas was on a time limit and trying to save Earth so no wasteful tactics should be excused), if the Asteroid contributed 90% that would just be nine hits which he could have done faster than wasting time fighting the cultists.


The Asteroid that killed the dinosaurs irc traveled 20 miles a second and relied on inertia once Atlas got on, if Atlas boarded the Asteroid when it was by the Moon (Which would be visible over the HORIZON as it was described in the lore) that would have given him 198 minutes before it reached Earth plenty of time to punch the asteroid hundreds if not thousands of times yet he still resorted to relying on the chain reaction and originally redirecting the thrusters. We can deduce from this that Atlas himself didn't believe he could destroy the asteroid in any reasonable timeframe before it struck Earth so Chain Reaction>>>>Hundreds or Thousands of Atlas punches.

This would make Atlas MAX potential striking strength (Will go by two orders of a magnitude) Maximum of 43000000000/100 Punches = 430 Megatons to 43000000000/1000 Punches. Each Punch is a second, we can deduce that Atlas wasted several minutes fighting Cultists when he could have just been punching the Asteroid and Atlas could have had hours to tens of minutes minimum before the Asteroid reached Earth so plenty of time to bust the Asteroid if he was anywhere near the power output of the chain reaction that actually destroyed the asteroid.


But the truth is we're being TOO generous for Atlas, we're working on the assumption belief that he contributed ANY relevant force despite several examples of lore suggesting he is not physically capable of the feat.


In the same lore Atlas causes indentations on the skulls of cultists instead of completely obliterating their skulls or vaporizing them with his punches, Atlas has no reason to hold back even 1% of his strength but if he was anywhere close to contributing asteroid busting powers there would be nothing left of the cultists.

"The beauty and craftsmanship conceal the true purpose of the Tekko, as indentations found in cultists' skulls attest." -Tekko

Atlas is threatened by bullets and blades, anyone who can output nuclear lvl fire power would be too resilient to be hurt by blades and bullets. Nevermind the cultists who if they had weapons capable of hurting someone with double digit gigaton lvl durability they wouldn't need an asteroid to wipe the surface of Earth they could do that with the weapons they had aboard the ship.

"Note the angled ballistic plating and reinforced neck protection. He would soon need both."-Atlas Shikoro helmet

In the same lore several petrified cultists survived the explosion which considering the yields involved wouldn't be possible unless their was some magic physics dying influence involved.

"Then, on our system's outer edge, we found a debris field of small rocks and dust in a lazy elliptical orbit. Upon these rocks, we find the remains of peculiar stone statuary. The petrified figures, clearly Temple members, have been frozen into a tableau of struggle and death. Or was it, perhaps, a dance? This remarkable find forces us to rethink the entire tale as fact."-Tableau of Telamon

Atlas fists are said to be as hard as Stone

His body is said to be as hard as Stone

So how did Atlas bust the Asteroid by punching if he's only hard as stone and threatened by bullets? He did it because the void of his punch served as the catalyst to propagate the Seismic disturbances from the Hymn, Void can defy physics when the user is experiencing a lot of emotions and Atlas was experiencing this (Gotta save Earth).

In summary

Atlas created a hymn (Sound) that combined with the Cultists hymn (Sound) which created Tremors (Vibrations) targeting the fault lines and then struck with a resonant blow (Sound) likely empowered by Void (Landslide Punch) which released all the built up tension created from the hymns.

Atlas did not hit hard because he's not resilient enough to hit that hard, his fists and body are confirmed to be only as hard as Stone. Which is consistent with his fists only creating indentations on Cultists, the same lore of the Asteroid said that he was vulnerable to bullets and blades which wouldn't be possible if he can produce kilotons worth of force. This is the true strength of Atlas.

For Atlas to bust "Countries" we would have to ignore FIVE examples, THREE examples of which are mentioned in the same story to contradict nuclear power (Indentations on skulls, threatened by bullets, petrified bodies still intact despite alleged minimum of 46 Gigatons)