Whom did they want instead?
The US remains neutral in WWI and thus the Entente get no unsecured loans from the US
- Thread starter WolfBear
- Start date
Whom did they want instead?
sillygoose
Well-known member
A Republic IIRC. IOTL it looked like the only option was a constitutional monarchy was on the table for them, which they accepted, but refused to elect a king until given more autonomy...which Germany refused to grant so the entire process fell apart:
Kingdom of Poland (1917–1918) - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
A Republic IIRC. IOTL it looked like the only option was a constitutional monarchy was on the table for them, which they accepted, but refused to elect a king until given more autonomy...which Germany refused to grant so the entire process fell apart:
Kingdom of Poland (1917–1918) - Wikipedia
Interesting.
BTW, off-topic, but is it fair to say that the main winners of WWI were the Poles, Romanians, Serbs, Czechoslovaks, Zionists, and maybe Americans? Here's how I see it:
-Poles: Got their independence back
-Romanians: Completed their national unification project
-Serbs: Same as for the Romanians, though less sustainable in the long(er)-run
-Czechoslovaks: Got their independence
-Zionists: Got a real chance to eventually create a Jewish state in Palestine for the first time in centuries
-Americans: Lost relatively little in WWI but became the world's main financial hub
In contrast, out of all of the other countries that participated in World War I, little was to be gained even in victory. At best, in victory, France, Germany, and Russia could expect to gain some minor territorial concessions and a sphere of influence in Eastern Europe.
sillygoose
Well-known member
Zionists no, since they effectively didn't get the state they wanted, the English played them.
I suppose you could make the argument about the rest, but the fallout of WW2 really screwed a lot of those groups.
Yep, everyone got fucked over in the end other than the Americans.
Well, the Zionists did ultimately get their own state, but at too high of a cost in lives. It just wasn't worth it. I'd rather have an additional 6+ million surviving Jews and no Jewish state at all than the other way around!And even the Americans lost a lot of their young men's lives in WWII!
sillygoose
Well-known member
Yup. Don't forget the massive trauma of the survivors that was passed on to kids; there was a massive explosion of violence and serial killers in the children of the WW2 (and Korean war and Vietnam war) generation that caused massive social problems in the US.Yep, everyone got fucked over in the end other than the Americans.
And even the Americans lost a lot of their young men's lives in WWII!
Do you have a link for this, please?
sillygoose
Well-known member
Why Were There So Many Serial Killers Between 1970 and 2000 -- and Where Did They Go?
The answer is manyfold — encompassing everything from sociological changes, to biology, to technology, to linguistics
www.rollingstone.com
There is also the lead theory of crime, but that didn't impact western countries like it did the US. What was the difference? More surviving American soldiers and more wars.
raharris1973
Well-known member
You forgot the Japanese - debtor to creditor, gained Micronesia, gained from weakening of Russia in northeast Asia. Certainly didn't make significant sacrifices, nothing close, even to America.
Disagree with Sillygoose on Zionists not being winners. Whatever it was about British policy that fell short of their expectations/hopes, they were still miles and miles ahead of where they'd be compared with any timeline where the Fertile Crescent was still Ottoman.
raharris1973
Well-known member
The Japanese in OTL had to pay compensation to Germany for the colonies seized from Germany in Micronesia and/or Tsingtao? I'd never heard of that.
Why so? Because you figure the writing on the wall for German success would be so clear the Russians would quit before the Bolsheviks take over, or because you figure the Germans will turn the Bolsheviks out of power once the main war with the Entente is over?
sillygoose
Well-known member
I was looking for details and apparently misremebered. Can't find any info online about it.
It was a very unique set of circumstances that even let the Bolsheviks seize power in St. Petersburg in the first place, unlikely to be in play ITTL. Plus of course the chance for the CPs to toss them out if needed.
Chiron
Well-known member
Britain's knockout blows in the Middle East that swept up the Levant is out the door. With no US entry, the troops used in those offensives get routed to France. This will enable the Ottomans to get shit organized and go back on the Offensive and retake all the ground they lost and take Transcaucasia and depending on things even Dagestan and Chechnya.
Regardless, the Allies have sufficient reserves to do one more Campaign in France for 1918. The Russians will still stay in necessitating the sealed train with Lenin.
No US entry also means the hammer will next fall on Italy. Knocking her out means it has to cede the Dodecanese Islands back to the Ottoman Empire. It also means the Austrian Navy can stop sitting in port and go sail, somewhere, maybe Crete, maybe Cyprus? So long as it sails.
As it is the Allies are too committed to just quit till France is overran and Britain loses Egypt so the fighting will continue into 1919 as the Germans finally gear up for a proper knockout blow with Austria-Hungary holding the rear Ottomans in position to hit the Suez.
The superior artillery of the Germans backed by new LMGs, and SMGs, enable the Germans to kick the door open and with no US troops in position to plug the holes, the Allies break.
The Ottomans get all their African Territories back, Germany will see to it so France doesn't have the funding to draw upon to rebuild for a long time. France also has to vacate its African Empire which is divided between the CP and has to give up Indochina which is granted Independence or Japan chomps it. The Ottomans also get the Aegean Islands back along with Crete. Thus punishing Greece for its joining of the Allies. Qajar Persia gets ignored. The British Pride is wounded, but they get off lightly all things considered.
Luxembourg and Belgium just get swallowed by Germany. The former just because, the latter as its neutrality was a patent Joke to begin with and it was given a chance to not contest the advance and keep its sovereignty. So chop chop.
France loses the Grand Est and Hauts-de-France so Germany in the Future can swiftly move on Paris and slap the shit out of the French when they get too uppity. A-H can take Romania and Northern Italy as its spoils.
As for the US:
Wow, the Europeans bashed themselves silly again. Glad we stayed out of it. When will they ever learn John?
Never Jack, two kids on the block, you just got to let them fight. Till they make it our problem, in which case we grab a bat and beat all their asses with it.