Alternate History The UK and Nazi Germany sent back to 500 AD

[Sailor.X]

In this scenario just before Hitler sends forces into Poland kick off WW2. The ROB sends both nations back to 500 AD. The Nazi's realize they are not in Kansas anymore when all the roads that lead into Poland disappear and they run into forests instead. The UK realizes that all the radio traffic that would be from France and other European nations goes silent. After a few days the Royal Navy and RAF do some investigating and find out to their shock that France as they know it is gone. Replaces with Roman like towns in their place. The Germans find themselves having to send flights out the get the lay of the land. And see that only Germany itself is developed. Every place else is just villages and forest. After a few weeks the Royal Navy and the German Navy blunder into each other. They are not at war yet since the invasion of Poland never occured. How will history unfold from this point forward.?

 

[stevep]

In this scenario just before Hitler sends forces into Poland kick off WW2. The ROB sends both nations back to 500 AD. The Nazi's realize they are not in Kansas anymore when all the roads that lead into Poland disappear and they run into forests instead. The UK realizes that all the radio traffic that would be from France and other European nations goes silent. After a few days the Royal Navy and RAF do some investigating and find out to their shock that France as they know it is gone. Replaces with Roman like towns in their place. The Germans find themselves having to send flights out the get the lay of the land. And see that only Germany itself is developed. Every place else is just villages and forest. After a few weeks the Royal Navy and the German Navy blunder into each other. They are not at war yet since the invasion of Poland never occured. How will history unfold from this point forward.?

I think it goes badly for the UK, and at least Europe as Germany is economically far more independent than the UK which relies on a lot of world trade. Also the latter would have lost a lot of overseas resources - such as the Med fleet and the British components to the Indian army along with a hell of a lot of merchant shipping. Especially if Germany includes its earlier annexations, i.e. Austria, the Sudetenland and Bohemia - although there was a fiction that the latter was a separate protectorate so it might not be affected. True under those conditions Germany loses two 'pocket' battleships as their already at sea but its small compensation. Germany will struggle some what for oil but I think there are small fields in Austria which might help while Britain at this point, while it knows where a lot of oil is has to reach those areas and then build all the relevant infrastructure to drill for it and ship it back to Britain - which is especially bad since the fleet and a lot of the merchant marine is oil fueled so you have a catch 22 issue.

I see both nations suffering very badly from shortages as they lose all foreign trade and probably a sizeable level of starvation even if they don't end up at war - which I suspect is still likely. Britain if it can muster enough ships not at sea at the time can benefit from virgin fisheries off Iceland and the Grand Banks as well as in more local waters and possibly a quick occupation of southern Ireland to gain agricultural lands but elsewhere is going to be awkward in the short term. Especially with limited infrastructure. In comparison while the lands are far less developed Germany has Gaul, northern Italy and the Hungarian plains in pretty easy reach along with possibly other lands to the east. In the longer term Britain can balance that possibly by settling more distant areas such as N America but that will take a long time.

The 'Germanic barbarians' who played a role in the collapse of the WRE are going to run into a real barbarian German so that's not going to go well for them. Some might be persuaded to join the 3rd Reich but a lot are going to be slaughtered or enslaved along with the rest of the non-German populations they rule over.

This of course assumes that there is no pandemic that affects the up-timers from a now extinction disease but again it far more likely that the down-timers will faire far worse.

 

[Sailor.X]

I think it goes badly for the UK, and at least Europe as Germany is economically far more independent than the UK which relies on a lot of world trade. Also the latter would have lost a lot of overseas resources - such as the Med fleet and the British components to the Indian army along with a hell of a lot of merchant shipping. Especially if Germany includes its earlier annexations, i.e. Austria, the Sudetenland and Bohemia - although there was a fiction that the latter was a separate protectorate so it might not be affected. True under those conditions Germany loses two 'pocket' battleships as their already at sea but its small compensation. Germany will struggle some what for oil but I think there are small fields in Austria which might help while Britain at this point, while it knows where a lot of oil is has to reach those areas and then build all the relevant infrastructure to drill for it and ship it back to Britain - which is especially bad since the fleet and a lot of the merchant marine is oil fueled so you have a catch 22 issue.

I see both nations suffering very badly from shortages as they lose all foreign trade and probably a sizeable level of starvation even if they don't end up at war - which I suspect is still likely. Britain if it can muster enough ships not at sea at the time can benefit from virgin fisheries off Iceland and the Grand Banks as well as in more local waters and possibly a quick occupation of southern Ireland to gain agricultural lands but elsewhere is going to be awkward in the short term. Especially with limited infrastructure. In comparison while the lands are far less developed Germany has Gaul, northern Italy and the Hungarian plains in pretty easy reach along with possibly other lands to the east. In the longer term Britain can balance that possibly by settling more distant areas such as N America but that will take a long time.

The 'Germanic barbarians' who played a role in the collapse of the WRE are going to run into a real barbarian German so that's not going to go well for them. Some might be persuaded to join the 3rd Reich but a lot are going to be slaughtered or enslaved along with the rest of the non-German populations they rule over.

This of course assumes that there is no pandemic that affects the up-timers from a now extinction disease but again it far more likely that the down-timers will faire far worse.

As to ships and troops. All overseas troops and ships and civilian vessels are transported in time displacement back to home soil and home waters. So they will still have the assets that were on those vessels.

 

[Buba]

Establishing "where are we now?" and contact will take 2-3 days.
Otherwise pretty much what @stevep wrote.
UK introduces food rationing first thing and goes on a fish heavy diet. Also - wall to wall potatoes, like in OTL during WWII. Lack of oil is again bad for UK - its agriculture was more mechanised than Germany's. Germany I bvelieve was pretty much self sufficient.
Besides no oil there is no rubber - think of the repercussions. Here I think the UK is again worse off as Germany was making some sort of ersatz - I have no idea of UK capability in this area. Lack of tea or coffee (or wine in UK) is a minor issue.
The merchant marines of both countries are still mostly coal fired, hence they can get around. The navies have to live off stockpiles. UK - again worse off, as Germany has some domestic production meeting 1/5th? of needs - makes a beeline for Texas ...

The DTs probably die off from some uptime shit.
Europe will speak German

Some of the outsourceing issues faced by UK and IIIR are covered in the "From the Azure Main" fic on AHcom. Although are much worse due to a/ DT world being less advanced than 1713 and b/ the UT being less advanced - here artificial rubber comes to my mind. Any other substitutes invented between '39 and '80 come your mind?

 

[stevep]

As to ships and troops. All overseas troops and ships and civilian vessels are transported in time displacement back to home soil and home waters. So they will still have the assets that were on those vessels.

That makes things somewhat better for the UK, but its still going to be very nasty as Buba says.

 

[Sailor.X]

That makes things somewhat better for the UK, but its still going to be very nasty as Buba says.

The UK's best bet is to send a massive expedition to Texas and start setting up drilling operations in the Oil Fields. Then they can start making a colony there. over time they can expand more into North America. But Texas should go colony number 1.

 

[ATP]

In this scenario just before Hitler sends forces into Poland kick off WW2. The ROB sends both nations back to 500 AD. The Nazi's realize they are not in Kansas anymore when all the roads that lead into Poland disappear and they run into forests instead. The UK realizes that all the radio traffic that would be from France and other European nations goes silent. After a few days the Royal Navy and RAF do some investigating and find out to their shock that France as they know it is gone. Replaces with Roman like towns in their place. The Germans find themselves having to send flights out the get the lay of the land. And see that only Germany itself is developed. Every place else is just villages and forest. After a few weeks the Royal Navy and the German Navy blunder into each other. They are not at war yet since the invasion of Poland never occured. How will history unfold from this point forward.?

Germans are fucked,but manage to survive and eventually take over world.
British died from hunger.
You want honest rivarly - gave all british colonies to them,too.

More interesting - what happen to our world? Poland and France would eventually take german lands and become stronger.Italy,too.
Soviets would fall thanks to economy,or start war and lost.

P.S what about Czech and Austria? are they taken,too?

 

[Buba]

Texas, besides the oil fields, is a good starting point to dump surplus mouths. Texas, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Louisiana - beef, cotton, wheat ...
Irish Question solved once and for all
Even if with a few lean months and belt tightening, there should be no mass starvation.

Taking up ATP's idea - what of 1939 world?
Poland snaps up the Oder River basin and East Prussia, annexes Danzig. Lithuania unhappy as Klaipeda is an empty beach ...
France declares that its Lebensraum Natural Borders are here and there - and moves troops accordingly.
I see Hungary doubling in size as it expands up the Danube Basin.
Lean times for Netherlands (Belgium also affected) - all trade up the Rhine gone. With no UK quite a few countries lose export markets. Then again, they probably lost holders of their external debt too?
Expansionist Danish imperialists swoop down to the mouth of the Elbe.

 

[Sailor.X]

Germans are fucked,but manage to survive and eventually take over world.
British died from hunger.
You want honest rivarly - gave all british colonies to them,too.

More interesting - what happen to our world? Poland and France would eventually take german lands and become stronger.Italy,too.
Soviets would fall thanks to economy,or start war and lost.

P.S what about Czech and Austria? are they taken,too?

Nope Czech and Austria are left where they were. Germany gets neither.

 

[Buba]

Nope Czech and Austria are left where they were. Germany gets neither.

Your call.
Although Austria and Sudentenland have been "Germany" for some time - 10 months or more - at this point already. Under "international law" and all that.
The Protectorate being a not so clear cut case I agree on it not coming along.

 

[ATP]

Nope Czech and Austria are left where they were. Germany gets neither.

Pity,Hungary do not get virgin land.
About 1939 - who would take 500AD british isles? France?
And,you really need to get England their colonies - otherwise there would be no british-german fighting over world,but germans taking all,including starved british isles.

 

[Jormungandr]

The UK wouldn't starve as many as postulating, but rationing and "Dig For Victory" would be even more strict and emphasized to the point where there wouldn't be any public parks or green areas any more. Also, fish would become the primary source of protein, and I expect a lot of the Royal Navy's ships would be guarding fishing boats in the North Sea to the point where it would be detrimental to other operations.

Conflict would definitely break out, but there would also be a mass scrambling for colonizing the rest of the world and bringing territories under their respective thumbs. Natives would be subjugated, and the British Empire would have an edge in this because that was pretty much our OM.

Hell, look at India's history.

Resources would likely be stretched thin as conflicts break out all over the world over land and resources, but it's unlikely either Nazi Germany nor the UK would directly attack the United Kingdom or Germany proper.

It'd all be a scramble for territory, especially in Europe (especially France, Spain, Italy, Norway, Sweden, et cetera). Germany would most definitely take Europe proper and push into Russia and the Middle-East/Africa, but at the time War broke out, the German navy was still completely inferior to Britain's (except a few notable examples): the UK would be able to reach Asia, Africa, the Pacific, and the Americas with no problem and take as much territory as it could.

The only thing they'd need to worry about would be U-Boats.

 

[Buba]

rationing and "Dig For Victory" would be even more strict and emphasized to the point where there wouldn't be any public parks or green areas any more. Also, fish would become the primary source of protein,

Amen.
Ireland prolly ends up as a huge potato patch too.

 

[Jormungandr]

Amen.
Ireland prolly ends up as a huge potato patch too.

Oh, most definitely! I forgot about Ireland! If Northern Ireland is transported but Eire isn't, Eire is going to be one giant farm lot for the rest of the British Isles.

 

[Sailor.X]

Oh, most definitely! I forgot about Ireland! If Northern Ireland is transported but Eire isn't, Eire is going to be one giant farm lot for the rest of the British Isles.

Working out arrangements with the various tribes in North America will be a boon for the UK. Who unlike Germany are not obsessed with an Occult ideology that labels anyone other than German as lower beings. And since the bad history that took place from 1500s to the late 1800s is not an issue. Those tribes can be brought onboard to being part of the UK with very little bloodshed. Granted you will still have some tribes that are troublesome. But that is the Nature of things.

 

[Jormungandr]

Working out arrangements with the various tribes in North America will be a boon for the UK. Who unlike Germany are not obsessed with an Occult ideology that labels anyone other than German as lower beings. And since the bad history that took place from 1500s to the late 1800s is not an issue. Those tribes can be brought onboard to being part of the UK with very little bloodshed. Granted you will still have some tribes that are troublesome. But that is the Nature of things.

Ironically, the British Empire at the time actually honoured (or tried to honour) its agreements with the various Native American tribes and groups. It was the then fledgling USA and the Colonies that constantly stabbed them in the back. sigh

 

[ATP]

Working out arrangements with the various tribes in North America will be a boon for the UK. Who unlike Germany are not obsessed with an Occult ideology that labels anyone other than German as lower beings. And since the bad history that took place from 1500s to the late 1800s is not an issue. Those tribes can be brought onboard to being part of the UK with very little bloodshed. Granted you will still have some tribes that are troublesome. But that is the Nature of things.

True - if they manage not to starve in process.I would still gave them Canada and Australia,maybe South Africa,in your scenario.

But you are right,British would have agreement with indians,not wipe them out like USA.

P.S What about England from 500AD in our times? could they remain independent?
At least british part,some kind of Arthur really ruled then and keep saxons at bay.

Ironically, the British Empire at the time actually honoured (or tried to honour) its agreements with the various Native American tribes and groups. It was the then fledgling USA and the Colonies that constantly stabbed them in the back. sigh

True.One of reasons why USA mutinied against Crown was that King do not let them genocide indians,becouse they were his subject,too.

 

[Sailor.X]

True - if they manage not to starve in process.I would still gave them Canada and Australia,maybe South Africa,in your scenario.

But you are right,British would have agreement with indians,not wipe them out like USA.

P.S What about England from 500AD in our times? could they remain independent?
At least british part,some kind of Arthur really ruled then and keep saxons at bay.



True.One of reasons why USA mutinied against Crown was that King do not let them genocide indians,becouse they were his subject,too.

England from 500AD is going to be a scientific anomaly that will be studied by all the major powers at the time. More than likely made a protectorate due for research purposes.

 

[ATP]

England from 500AD is going to be a scientific anomaly that will be studied by all the major powers at the time. More than likely made a protectorate due for research purposes.

Good,at least we get real info about Arthur.Becouse myths do not come out of nothing.