Star Trek The true cost of the Dominion War

[AndrewJTalon]

That said, the Trek novels were pretty awful too. In detailing the Post-Dominion War galaxy, urgh. Especially what they did with the President of the Federation, Min Zife:

Min Zife

Min Zife was the President of the United Federation of Planets during the Dominion War and its immediate aftermath. The Zife Administration presided over one of the most tumultuous eras in Federation history, and was eventually undone by its pragmatic realpolitik policies. (TNG novel: A Time to...

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The Tezwa deal was incredibly stupid, a hamfisted attempt to somehow make commentary on the Iraq War. There are plenty of morally questionable things the President of the UFP might have to do in order to ensure victory in the Dominion War: This is really dumb though.

Min Zife himself presents a lot of interesting possibilities for stories without the stupid Iraq War parallels. The Bolarus system remains a highly capitalistic society in the Federation and are a financial hub for interstellar trade. They still have a stock market. To rise to prominence on such a planet requires being good financially as well as an astute politician. His efforts to rearm the Federation to fight against incoming threats like the Dominion and the Borg ultimately worked out fairly well as STO can attest.

Hell, you could make him a parallel to US Presidents Theodore Roosevelt, Ronald Reagan, or even Donald Trump in some ways if you so chose: Though I think "Make the Federation Great Again" might be less controversial in the 24th century.

 

[AndrewJTalon]

Urgh. Sorry, I kind of killed the discussion. My bad.

It is kind of weird that in Star Trek, with such a focus on big interstellar politicking, that we rarely get to see anything of the government of the Federation. I know that the shows are focused on adventure mainly and talking politics can really slow things down but it's just weird to see what is technically the military being the face for most of the diplomatic meetings.

I can see the UFP President during the war deciding not to run for re-election though, after how difficult the job was.

 

[bullethead]

It is kind of weird that in Star Trek, with such a focus on big interstellar politicking, that we rarely get to see anything of the government of the Federation.

To be honest, the only real interstellar politicking pre-DS9 was the Klingon Civil War stuff (starting with Sins of the Father) and maybe Unification. The rest was pretty standard diplomacy stuff (IIRC). DS9 really got into politicking, but it never really managed to get the Bajoran stuff to work (mostly because it didn't show what was going on Bajor). It was mostly stuff on Cardassia and related to the Dominion that constituted the interstellar politicking trend.

 

[AndrewJTalon]

To be honest, the only real interstellar politicking pre-DS9 was the Klingon Civil War stuff (starting with Sins of the Father) and maybe Unification. The rest was pretty standard diplomacy stuff (IIRC). DS9 really got into politicking, but it never really managed to get the Bajoran stuff to work (mostly because it didn't show what was going on Bajor). It was mostly stuff on Cardassia and related to the Dominion that constituted the interstellar politicking trend.

Fair enough. Diplomacy might be more accurate.

So, perhaps another question to ask is: If you were writing things, how would you approach the Post-Dominion War Alpha Quadrant? What stories would you want to tell?

 

[commanderkai]

I really hope the Picard series touches upon the post-Dominion War stuff. Realistically it'll be "THE BORG ARE COMING AGAIN" because people know the Borg. Sigh...

I'm skeptical that Federation casualties are in the billions. I don't see the Dominion conducting brutal and bloody pacification campaigns on Federation worlds until after the Federation surrenders.

The Klingons, on the other hand, I'd expect any Dominion occupied worlds to be brutal, Stalingrad esque fighting due to the warrior culture, and they probably had higher death totals.

The Cardassians lost nearly a billion civilians due to the Dominion's purge of Cardassia at the end of the war. I doubt Sisko and Ross would be all grandstanding if billions of Federation civilians died on Betazed and such.

 

[The Original Sixth]

From what little research I've done the Dominion War was perhaps the most costly war in recent memory in terms of lives and materials lost. Starfleet lost entire fleets to the Dominion/Cardassian Alliance and the Klingons are said to have lost a lot more due to their prior war with the Cardassian and numerous skirmishes with the Federation.


But just how costly was it for the Federation, Klignon and Romulan empires? Hard numbers and figures would be great.

DS9's writers tried to keep it vague, specifically so it would be hard to trip themselves up. Specifically though...

• After the War:
  • SLOAN: To evaluate an ally. And a temporary ally at that. I say that because when the war is over, the following will happen in short order. The Dominion will be forced back to the Gamma Quadrant, the Cardassian Empire will be occupied, the Klingon Empire will spend the next ten years recovering from the war and won't pose a serious threat to anyone. That leaves two powers to vie for control of the quadrant, the Federation and the Romulans.
• The Cardassian Empire would be occupied and we know they suffered heavy casualties.
  • (What you Leave Behind)
    • BASHIR: Eight hundred million dead.
      GARAK: And casualty reports still coming in. Well, aren't you going to congratulate me, Doctor? My exile is now officially over. I've returned home. Or rather, to what's left of it.
      BASHIR: Listen, I know that this must seem bleak
  • That's 800 million dead from just the final battle, not including the heavy losses the Cardassian Military had taken during the war.
  • Near-total destruction of the Cardassian fleet and military assets.
• The Klingon Empire
  • Klingon Civil War -- Was never suggested to be a huge blow to their military power in DS9 and was likely more skirmishes with few losses than actual major engagements.
  • Klingon-Cardassian War -- The Klingons had devoted a full third of their military power to the conquest of the Cardassian Empire.
  • Klingon-Dominion War -- After the Cardassian Empire joined the Dominion, the Dominion effortlessly drove out the Klingons. I can only guess they suffered heavily during that portion of the war, because they were basically forced to abandon all their captured territory. Given the nature of the Klingons, I would expect the losses to be high. At least 50% ship loss, probably closer to 75%. Especially because Gowron was not the brightest strategist to ever grace the Empire. He would have demanded they take those losses for the sake of politics until it reached the breaking point.
  • The Dominion War --The Klingons suffered heavily not just thanks to the Breen energy weapons that came late into the game, but also thanks to the foolish actions of Gowron during that time in attempt to keep his position as Chancellor from the one man in the Empire who didn't want the damn seat in the first place.
  • Conclusion -- Going off what happened in the show and what Sloan had said, and given that Sloan was probably referring to the Alpha Quadrant, not the Beta Quadrant--I expect that the Klingon Empire had suffered such heavy losses that they could probably only just maintain what they had. They had no meaningful projection capabilities by the end of the war.
• United Federation of Planets
  • Had taken heavy losses during the war. Especially the early parts of the war.
  • Had lost shipyards on the border, as well as repair stations, and starbases.
  • Survived with most of its military power intact.
  • Presumably occupied or assisted in occupying Cardassia.
  • Bajor on fast-track to membership.
  • Conclusion -- The UFP took heavy losses, but most of the blow seems to me to have been philosophical. Strategically, the UFP is in the lead position. Bajor would go on to become a UFP member. That gives the UFP control of the entire Bajor Sector. Control of the Wormhole. The UFP would also undoubtedly reclaim the colonies it gave up to the Cardassians in the DMZ. And keep the ones that Cardassians had given up for good measure. It would occupy the Cardassian space in cooperation with the other powers. That essentially gives the UFP greater territorial depth against any future Dominion attack.
• Romulan Star Empire
  • Entered the war later.
  • Suffered some sort of political revolution between DS9 and Nemesis.
  • A coup in Nemesis that was quickly ended.
  • Conclusion -- The Romulans seem not to have taken much in the way of losses in the Dominion War. Sloan's statement suggests to me that the Romulans were the only real competitors for the Alpha Quadrant. That's odd, given most of the official maps don't show the Romulans having a possible dog in the fight, but I suspect that the Romulans must have some sort of enclave over in the Alpha Quadrant or perhaps took the Chinese route using money to buy affluence in the area. You might have small bits of property gifted to the Romulans, such as a planet to mine, a moon to house a repair station, or that sort of thing. It would also explain the occasional attacks from Romulan territory that happened in the series, but would have taken months to execute if we go by the maps an official FTL speeds.

I was told that the Klingon Empire was essentially gutted by the recent wars. Both militarily, economically and politically. Simply put the Empire was just spent. Is that a fair assessment?

Not entirely.

Militarily -- Devastated. The first war with the Dominion had gone very badly for the Klingons; that they were actually driven entirely out of Cardassian space suggests to me that the losses were high. These were Klingons and Gowron was in charge. The idea that they suffered anything less than staggering losses to force a route is almost obscene.

Politically -- Exact opposite, I expect. The Dominion War would actually galvanize the Klingons. That said, the fact that Martok is now the leader of the Empire would cause problems among the elite, who would resent him for obtaining such a high status. Indeed, he was prevented from even entering the military at first because he tried to become an officer and an old noble banned him for the audacity. It was a shitty thing, even by noble standards at the time, but the fact that it could be done is telling. I also expect the loss of military resources during the war meant that a fair amount of conquered worlds might be itching for some revolutions. Not to mention weakened or disgraced houses might be eyeing each other. The Klingons fight among themselves as often as they do others.

Economically -- I doubt it. Ship production would have helped to drive the economy forward. Even after the war, they'd need more ships, newer ships, and better ships to replace the ones that had been lost. Even the idea that they might have burned through their resources is absurd; the Klingon Empire has enough resources in its own system to build a dyson sphere. They don't need to worry about raw materials, save the occasional BS Star Trek ones.

The blow was hard, but ten years for a power to recover is really not all that bad. I expect that Sloan was mostly speaking about their ability to project power into the Alpha Quadrant in any case.

The Romulans are in chaos from the Hobus Supernova.

Was actually never canon in Trek Prime, as it turns out. That was just Paramount and CBS misleading us.

 

[Lanmandragon]

DS9's writers tried to keep it vague, specifically so it would be hard to trip themselves up. Specifically though...

• After the War:
  • SLOAN: To evaluate an ally. And a temporary ally at that. I say that because when the war is over, the following will happen in short order. The Dominion will be forced back to the Gamma Quadrant, the Cardassian Empire will be occupied, the Klingon Empire will spend the next ten years recovering from the war and won't pose a serious threat to anyone. That leaves two powers to vie for control of the quadrant, the Federation and the Romulans.
• The Cardassian Empire would be occupied and we know they suffered heavy casualties.
  • (What you Leave Behind)
    • BASHIR: Eight hundred million dead.
      GARAK: And casualty reports still coming in. Well, aren't you going to congratulate me, Doctor? My exile is now officially over. I've returned home. Or rather, to what's left of it.
      BASHIR: Listen, I know that this must seem bleak
  • That's 800 million dead from just the final battle, not including the heavy losses the Cardassian Military had taken during the war.
  • Near-total destruction of the Cardassian fleet and military assets.
• The Klingon Empire
  • Klingon Civil War -- Was never suggested to be a huge blow to their military power in DS9 and was likely more skirmishes with few losses than actual major engagements.
  • Klingon-Cardassian War -- The Klingons had devoted a full third of their military power to the conquest of the Cardassian Empire.
  • Klingon-Dominion War -- After the Cardassian Empire joined the Dominion, the Dominion effortlessly drove out the Klingons. I can only guess they suffered heavily during that portion of the war, because they were basically forced to abandon all their captured territory. Given the nature of the Klingons, I would expect the losses to be high. At least 50% ship loss, probably closer to 75%. Especially because Gowron was not the brightest strategist to ever grace the Empire. He would have demanded they take those losses for the sake of politics until it reached the breaking point.
  • The Dominion War --The Klingons suffered heavily not just thanks to the Breen energy weapons that came late into the game, but also thanks to the foolish actions of Gowron during that time in attempt to keep his position as Chancellor from the one man in the Empire who didn't want the damn seat in the first place.
  • Conclusion -- Going off what happened in the show and what Sloan had said, and given that Sloan was probably referring to the Alpha Quadrant, not the Beta Quadrant--I expect that the Klingon Empire had suffered such heavy losses that they could probably only just maintain what they had. They had no meaningful projection capabilities by the end of the war.
• United Federation of Planets
  • Had taken heavy losses during the war. Especially the early parts of the war.
  • Had lost shipyards on the border, as well as repair stations, and starbases.
  • Survived with most of its military power intact.
  • Presumably occupied or assisted in occupying Cardassia.
  • Bajor on fast-track to membership.
  • Conclusion -- The UFP took heavy losses, but most of the blow seems to me to have been philosophical. Strategically, the UFP is in the lead position. Bajor would go on to become a UFP member. That gives the UFP control of the entire Bajor Sector. Control of the Wormhole. The UFP would also undoubtedly reclaim the colonies it gave up to the Cardassians in the DMZ. And keep the ones that Cardassians had given up for good measure. It would occupy the Cardassian space in cooperation with the other powers. That essentially gives the UFP greater territorial depth against any future Dominion attack.
• Romulan Star Empire
  • Entered the war later.
  • Suffered some sort of political revolution between DS9 and Nemesis.
  • A coup in Nemesis that was quickly ended.
  • Conclusion -- The Romulans seem not to have taken much in the way of losses in the Dominion War. Sloan's statement suggests to me that the Romulans were the only real competitors for the Alpha Quadrant. That's odd, given most of the official maps don't show the Romulans having a possible dog in the fight, but I suspect that the Romulans must have some sort of enclave over in the Alpha Quadrant or perhaps took the Chinese route using money to buy affluence in the area. You might have small bits of property gifted to the Romulans, such as a planet to mine, a moon to house a repair station, or that sort of thing. It would also explain the occasional attacks from Romulan territory that happened in the series, but would have taken months to execute if we go by the maps an official FTL speeds.

Not entirely.

Militarily -- Devastated. The first war with the Dominion had gone very badly for the Klingons; that they were actually driven entirely out of Cardassian space suggests to me that the losses were high. These were Klingons and Gowron was in charge. The idea that they suffered anything less than staggering losses to force a route is almost obscene.

Politically -- Exact opposite, I expect. The Dominion War would actually galvanize the Klingons. That said, the fact that Martok is now the leader of the Empire would cause problems among the elite, who would resent him for obtaining such a high status. Indeed, he was prevented from even entering the military at first because he tried to become an officer and an old noble banned him for the audacity. It was a shitty thing, even by noble standards at the time, but the fact that it could be done is telling. I also expect the loss of military resources during the war meant that a fair amount of conquered worlds might be itching for some revolutions. Not to mention weakened or disgraced houses might be eyeing each other. The Klingons fight among themselves as often as they do others.

Economically -- I doubt it. Ship production would have helped to drive the economy forward. Even after the war, they'd need more ships, newer ships, and better ships to replace the ones that had been lost. Even the idea that they might have burned through their resources is absurd; the Klingon Empire has enough resources in its own system to build a dyson sphere. They don't need to worry about raw materials, save the occasional BS Star Trek ones.

The blow was hard, but ten years for a power to recover is really not all that bad. I expect that Sloan was mostly speaking about their ability to project power into the Alpha Quadrant in any case.




Was actually never canon in Trek Prime, as it turns out. That was just Paramount and CBS misleading us.

The losses the UFP took likely helped them overall. Cleared out the legacy fleet and gave them a deep pool of hardened vetran officers(and presumably NCOs). All in all even with the cost I bet they came out ahead.

 

[The Original Sixth]

The losses the UFP took likely helped them overall. Cleared out the legacy fleet and gave them a deep pool of hardened veteran officers(and presumably NCOs). All in all even with the cost I bet they came out ahead.

I think you hit the head on the nail with the veteran officers, but let me get back to that.

There was really nothing wrong with their veteran fleet. We saw how well a fully upgraded Excelsior could do against the Defiant, which was almost entirely state of the art technology. Granted, the mass difference was huge, but it stands to reason that the Excelsior could more easily be given a more powerful reactor, more powerful phaser banks, and more capable torpedo launchers than the decades it would take to sort out the design and production of a new starship. Think of the F-35, by far the most sophisticated and complicated weapons platform we've ever put in the sky--and we lost years in production because of delays. That's just how cutting edge technology works.

I suspect the problem came down to the make-up of the top brass and that takes us to the veteran portion. Let's call it what it was; Starfleet had basically devolved into a way for most kids to fast-track themselves up the ladder in society. You want to be a respected botanist? Join Starfleet. You want to be a well-respected computer programmer? Join Starfleet. You want to become a respected politician? Join Starfleet. You want to get an internship for computer science and save up for a 4-year college? Join Starfleet. The obvious social and economic benefits to joining Starfleet over the actual importance of defending your nation were obvious. You can tell by how the captains of the time approached violence and how before the Borg, they were so damn smug in their moral and ethical superiority. Little wonder why Q threw them in the path of a Borg Cube.

Lots of captains and admirals in Starfleet were more concerned about their moral purity in TNG then they were concerned about actually doing their damn jobs. Oh sure, they loved the part about exploration and meeting new lifeforms. What they hated was the idea that they would actually have to get violent. Because contrary to the few ships we followed around, most ships did not encounter those problems on such a regular basis. It was mostly diplomatic encounter, maybe minor difficulties, and it all turns out well. Or a new planet where several crewmen come down with the flu.

The Dominion War weeded them out quickly. The incompetent admirals were slowly, then quickly displaced with competent ones. The incompetent captains either shaped up or died. Starfleet became less the gentlemen's club for the socially elevated members of society and quickly became a fighting force.

 

[Sailor.X]

I think you hit the head on the nail with the veteran officers, but let me get back to that.

There was really nothing wrong with their veteran fleet. We saw how well a fully upgraded Excelsior could do against the Defiant, which was almost entirely state of the art technology. Granted, the mass difference was huge, but it stands to reason that the Excelsior could more easily be given a more powerful reactor, more powerful phaser banks, and more capable torpedo launchers than the decades it would take to sort out the design and production of a new starship. Think of the F-35, by far the most sophisticated and complicated weapons platform we've ever put in the sky--and we lost years in production because of delays. That's just how cutting edge technology works.

I suspect the problem came down to the make-up of the top brass and that takes us to the veteran portion. Let's call it what it was; Starfleet had basically devolved into a way for most kids to fast-track themselves up the ladder in society. You want to be a respected botanist? Join Starfleet. You want to be a well-respected computer programmer? Join Starfleet. You want to become a respected politician? Join Starfleet. You want to get an internship for computer science and save up for a 4-year college? Join Starfleet. The obvious social and economic benefits to joining Starfleet over the actual importance of defending your nation were obvious. You can tell by how the captains of the time approached violence and how before the Borg, they were so damn smug in their moral and ethical superiority. Little wonder why Q threw them in the path of a Borg Cube.

Lots of captains and admirals in Starfleet were more concerned about their moral purity in TNG then they were concerned about actually doing their damn jobs. Oh sure, they loved the part about exploration and meeting new lifeforms. What they hated was the idea that they would actually have to get violent. Because contrary to the few ships we followed around, most ships did not encounter those problems on such a regular basis. It was mostly diplomatic encounter, maybe minor difficulties, and it all turns out well. Or a new planet where several crewmen come down with the flu.

The Dominion War weeded them out quickly. The incompetent admirals were slowly, then quickly displaced with competent ones. The incompetent captains either shaped up or died. Starfleet became less the gentlemen's club for the socially elevated members of society and quickly became a fighting force.

I wonder about all those officers that either got sent to prison or just booted out of starfleet for trying to arm up Starfleet. You know like research into cloaking tech or other weapons tech that the Federation cracked down on. I bet after the war certain people got pardoned and a big apology from the new Brass.

 

[Lanmandragon]

I think you hit the head on the nail with the veteran officers, but let me get back to that.

There was really nothing wrong with their veteran fleet. We saw how well a fully upgraded Excelsior could do against the Defiant, which was almost entirely state of the art technology. Granted, the mass difference was huge, but it stands to reason that the Excelsior could more easily be given a more powerful reactor, more powerful phaser banks, and more capable torpedo launchers than the decades it would take to sort out the design and production of a new starship. Think of the F-35, by far the most sophisticated and complicated weapons platform we've ever put in the sky--and we lost years in production because of delays. That's just how cutting edge technology works.

I suspect the problem came down to the make-up of the top brass and that takes us to the veteran portion. Let's call it what it was; Starfleet had basically devolved into a way for most kids to fast-track themselves up the ladder in society. You want to be a respected botanist? Join Starfleet. You want to be a well-respected computer programmer? Join Starfleet. You want to become a respected politician? Join Starfleet. You want to get an internship for computer science and save up for a 4-year college? Join Starfleet. The obvious social and economic benefits to joining Starfleet over the actual importance of defending your nation were obvious. You can tell by how the captains of the time approached violence and how before the Borg, they were so damn smug in their moral and ethical superiority. Little wonder why Q threw them in the path of a Borg Cube.

Lots of captains and admirals in Starfleet were more concerned about their moral purity in TNG then they were concerned about actually doing their damn jobs. Oh sure, they loved the part about exploration and meeting new lifeforms. What they hated was the idea that they would actually have to get violent. Because contrary to the few ships we followed around, most ships did not encounter those problems on such a regular basis. It was mostly diplomatic encounter, maybe minor difficulties, and it all turns out well. Or a new planet where several crewmen come down with the flu.

The Dominion War weeded them out quickly. The incompetent admirals were slowly, then quickly displaced with competent ones. The incompetent captains either shaped up or died. Starfleet became less the gentlemen's club for the socially elevated members of society and quickly became a fighting force.

That's certainly true to an extent. Is say any new tech was shook down pretty well though and it certainly can't hurt they the bulk of thier ships would be advanced.

 

[The Original Sixth]

I wonder about all those officers that either got sent to prison or just booted out of starfleet for trying to arm up Starfleet. You know like research into cloaking tech or other weapons tech that the Federation cracked down on. I bet after the war certain people got pardoned and a big apology from the new Brass.

I expect that during the war, some of them were given over to release programs. Ie; "you fight, we pretend this never happened" sort of thing. Not the admirals though. Most probably those admirals managed to get off with their freedom, just not their job. Or were otherwise regulated to non-important positions.

 

[Husky_Khan]

I wonder about all those officers that either got sent to prison or just booted out of starfleet for trying to arm up Starfleet. You know like research into cloaking tech or other weapons tech that the Federation cracked down on. I bet after the war certain people got pardoned and a big apology from the new Brass.

When did that happen?

 

[bullethead]

When did that happen?

Pressman in TNG comes immediately to mind.

 

[AndrewJTalon]

Pressman in TNG comes immediately to mind.

Captain Maxwell was another, also from TNG, who attacked Cardassian ships and outposts after the treaty was signed.

 

[S'task]

Was actually never canon in Trek Prime, as it turns out. That was just Paramount and CBS misleading us.

Source? Because everything I've ever seen on the matter suggest that the Hobbus nova happens in the Prime timeline.

Now, as to the aftermath of the Dominion War, it's a non-matter, as there's something like fifteen to twenty years between the end of the war and when that event is supposed to have occurred. The much more damaging situation is what happened with the Remans.

 

[bullethead]

Captain Maxwell was another, also from TNG, who attacked Cardassian ships and outposts after the treaty was signed.

He wasn't developing new weapons, but yeah, he'd be one guy who'd get a pardon and put in a high position in the strategic desk jockey circuit.

 

[Lanmandragon]

Honestly though, the Post-Dominion War Alpha Quadrant is fascinating if you're A: a fan and B: a good writer.

Cardassia is occupied and being rebuilt under Allied supervision. The Klingons are conquering smaller worlds to rebuild. The Romulans are in chaos from the Hobus Supernova. The Federation is also rebuilding but also trying to explore and expand with the new technology from Voyager. The Voth and the Undine are new potential threats, as well as a resurgent Borg collective (None of that Destiny nonsense or whatever the novels were). And the Iconians might be back, too. All sorts of things!

And yet, no. Just endless prequels and reboots because that's Hollywood now. But anyway, the meta is not the big issue.

Which worlds now part of the Federation might see a surge in joining Starfleet after the war? Which worlds might be concerned about the direction the Federation is taking and might push back?

I'd imagine the Vulcans aren't real thrilled. I would say the betazoids as well. Due to thier pacifistic culture but that would likley be derailed. Due to the conquest and occupation. On the flip side I'd imagine the warrior race of andor would be thrilled.

 

[SableCold]

I'd imagine the Vulcans aren't real thrilled.

Vulcans? Come on. These are the ones who had no compunctions about having an undeclared cold war with Andorians before Earth came up with the idea of a Federation.
They prefer peace, yes, but in the end all you have to do is frame it to them logically. The galaxy at large isn't a peaceful place and Starfleet has to be ready to defend the Federation's peace.

 

[Deleted member]

That said, the Trek novels were pretty awful too. In detailing the Post-Dominion War galaxy, urgh. Especially what they did with the President of the Federation, Min Zife:

Min Zife

Min Zife was the President of the United Federation of Planets during the Dominion War and its immediate aftermath. The Zife Administration presided over one of the most tumultuous eras in Federation history, and was eventually undone by its pragmatic realpolitik policies. (TNG novel: A Time to...

memory-beta.fandom.com

The Tezwa deal was incredibly stupid, a hamfisted attempt to somehow make commentary on the Iraq War. There are plenty of morally questionable things the President of the UFP might have to do in order to ensure victory in the Dominion War: This is really dumb though.

Min Zife himself presents a lot of interesting possibilities for stories without the stupid Iraq War parallels. The Bolarus system remains a highly capitalistic society in the Federation and are a financial hub for interstellar trade. They still have a stock market. To rise to prominence on such a planet requires being good financially as well as an astute politician. His efforts to rearm the Federation to fight against incoming threats like the Dominion and the Borg ultimately worked out fairly well as STO can attest.

Hell, you could make him a parallel to US Presidents Theodore Roosevelt, Ronald Reagan, or even Donald Trump in some ways if you so chose: Though I think "Make the Federation Great Again" might be less controversial in the 24th century.

Urgh. Sorry, I kind of killed the discussion. My bad.

It is kind of weird that in Star Trek, with such a focus on big interstellar politicking, that we rarely get to see anything of the government of the Federation. I know that the shows are focused on adventure mainly and talking politics can really slow things down but it's just weird to see what is technically the military being the face for most of the diplomatic meetings.

I can see the UFP President during the war deciding not to run for re-election though, after how difficult the job was.

I just feel you can't escape a fundamental tension between the reality of war and the way the federation is protrayed, but that precisely because of that any scandals involving in the Dominion War would be both less and more. "Less" in the sense that you wouldn't have ham-fisted parallels to Bush, and more in the sense that the whole idea of war is rejected by a substantial part of Federation society, and the whole UFP military is existing in tension to that.

I think the diplomacy grew out of the reality of warp travel in the early days (like the 16th and 17th centuries in the Age of Sail), but became a more and more important part of Starfleet as society became more Pacifistic because it reflected a purpose of the service which the whole population could still rally behind. That's why explicit militarisation is so difficult to swallow politically. And why the consequences of the Dominion War are either morally serious or morally virtuous depending on how the Federation reacts to it -- returning to more of an even keel, socially, or fighting over the implications of the need for military strength? Unfortunately, actually changing the basic tension of the period is something authors will probably shy away from in Picard, and I haven't read the books to see if they shied away from it there as well.

 

[Shipmaster Sane]

If that interesting "Paper tiger" theory about the Romulans is correct, it could have very well crippled them.

I don't disagree that it would be nice to focus on newer enemies, but let's be honest: The Borg are iconic for Star Trek now. It'd be like never having Daleks in Doctor Who or Darksiders in Star Wars: You gotta have them because their concepts are so interesting. That said, doing the same thing over and over again with them is tiresome, I don't disagree.

The Borg being spent is important, (as was the Daleks being gone except for tiny dying remnants, that point in fact underpinned the drama of the whole revived series). The Borg being a crumbling structure is important not only dramatically, but thematically

The Borg are a dead end. Their way of doing things just isn't practical in Star Trek, they're basically the antithesis of the lesson Q was trying to teach us. Without the help of humans, who are rapidly leaving them behind, they would have all been dead when they blew their first hole in the universe, whereas the federation deals with that shit all the time.
They are as powerful as they're ever going to be, and they're actually going to continually meet with failure and collapse until they're nothing but a memory.




Edit because of double post, unrelated to the above.

Human psychology and culture in Star Trek seems a lot more "mutable" than the races that surround them. Most races have a monoculture, and are kind of confused by how "inconsistent" humans act. Qark treats the fact that humans are gentle and polite when times are good, and ruthless and bloodthirsty when times are bad, as some kind of shocking revelation that seperates humans from other races.

Time and again the Federation runs into these militant space powers who eat breathe and shit combat, who take one look at the humans prancing around smelling alien flowers and playing the violin and react with a resounding "Get a load of these pussies, we can take these guys". Said militant space power does as well as they expect in the beginning, then the conflict grinds to a halt, then it starts to turn against them rapidly.

And they're always surprised.

They're just baffled that the same fruity poets that they were fighting in the beginning are now cold and brutal killing machines that make necklaces out of parts of their enemies and eagerly leap into Melee combat with klingons. Because apparently, no one else is like that.