Star Trek The true cost of the Dominion War

[Spartan303]

From what little research I've done the Dominion War was perhaps the most costly war in recent memory in terms of lives and materials lost. Starfleet lost entire fleets to the Dominion/Cardassian Alliance and the Klingons are said to have lost a lot more due to their prior war with the Cardassian and numerous skirmishes with the Federation.


But just how costly was it for the Federation, Klignon and Romulan empires? Hard numbers and figures would be great.

 

[bullethead]

Pretty sure there are mentions of how many ships/people are lost in a few battles/campaigns during DS9, but I don't know if anyone has anything beyond that.

 

[CurtisLemay]

I'd say in the billions of lives and credits. I mean the Dominion got off real light in the Treaty of Bajor. I would have been dictating terms ala MacArthur. But that's me.

 

[commanderkai]

I am skeptical that the Dominion conducted any widespread atrocities on worlds they captured during the war. It would have helped the Federation/Klingons rally it's member worlds and increase recruitment, akin to "Hey they're murdering millions of Betazeds each day! Don't let this happen to your world!"

I'd consider civilian deaths to be relatively light for the Federation as proper Dominion pacification efforts (aka death. Lots of death) wouldn't have begun until after a military victory.

Problem is with military deaths is that we never really have a good number on how many ships were lost or ground engagements occurred. The Cardassians lost around 7 million military personnel (and I assume the Jem Hadar were the main ground force, and probably died by the millions) so I'd expect 3-7 million Allied military deaths.

 

[bullethead]

I remember them mentioning losing a fleet early in season 6 that was several hundred ships strong (seems to be the fleet lost in the Tyra system - 98 out of 112 ships lost), and the Second Battle of Chin'Toka lost the Federation, Klingons, and Romulans 311 out of 312 ships.

 

[Deleted member 1]

Probably they were nearly bankrupted and of course the culture permanently more militarised, at least in the short term.

 

[AndrewJTalon]

The re-militarization of Starfleet began with the first encounter with the Borg in 2365, but it didn't get serious until the massacre at Wolf 359 the year after. The losses of several Galaxy-class starships to the Dominion, the Borg, alien viruses and an obsolete Klingon Bird of Prey were also kicks in the pants but it was fighting complacency from being unchallenged for almost a century. So it's little wonder it took them so damn long to get going into a proper military mindset.

I'm not saying they should have gone full bore HALO Space military, but it was clear with how they were getting kicked around that they needed to take defense a LOT more seriously. And to take their foreign policy a lot more seriously. In order, the Federation:

-Allowed several colonies and starships in the Gamma Quadrant to be destroyed without attempting any meaningful retaliation. Sending the Defiant in for recon and to try and establish diplomatic relations is not a terrible idea: Sending her in with a large fleet of armored vessels for support or to draw Dominion attention is a better idea.
-Tolerated the Dominion taking control of Cardassia and let them ship huge fleets full of war materials through the wormhole, not stopping them by mining the wormhole until they already had overwhelming forces in the Alpha Quadrant.
-Tolerated the Dominion making diplomatic inroads across the Alpha Quadrant without any counter efforts (that we could see) on the diplomatic front to try and isolate the Dominion.

How the Dominion treated its part of the galaxy and how they would likely treat the Alpha Quadrant powers if they were victorious should have been something hammered on by Federation diplomats, over and over and over again. It's not like they didn't have a shortage of atrocities by the Dominion to show. It's not like the Dominion would have any reason to honor any treaties made when they weren't the dominant power in the Alpha Quadrant with the Romulans or the other powers (though typical Romulan spite and short-sightedness would probably have resulted in them doing the same thing anyway). I mean, the Federation is supposed to be really good at diplomacy! At least make an effort!

But yes, it is not a surprise that the massive conflict fought mostly in their own space where they got kicked around like soccer balls finally made the Federation realize they need to drop the smug space hippie act and take the universe seriously.

As for losses: Julian Bashir and his thinktank of super genius Augments in "Statistical Probabilities" projected that the Federation and other allied powers would suffer a staggering 900 BILLION casualties from warfare with the Dominion. And yet enough of a population could survive from this to maintain interstellar civilization and over the course of several centuries create a resistance that would overthrow the Dominion. So clearly the population of the Federation and perhaps the major powers of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants is well over 900 Billion.

(I know, it's a huge assumption that doesn't take into account the birthrates of all species or whether it's exclusively the Federation that suffers this but it's what we've got).

And while I do agree that the Dominion may have tried to minimize civilian casualties, with the population sizes being this high even a billion deaths from planetary bombardment, displacement of refugees and so on might be seen as "low". So I wouldn't assume the number of deaths would just be in the millions.

 

[Spartan303]

I was told that the Klingon Empire was essentially gutted by the recent wars. Both militarily, economically and politically. Simply put the Empire was just spent. Is that a fair assessment?

 

[AndrewJTalon]

I was told that the Klingon Empire was essentially gutted by the recent wars. Both militarily, economically and politically. Simply put the Empire was just spent. Is that a fair assessment?

Yes. They would require at least 10 years to rebuild after the massive strain put on them by their civil war, fighting the Cardassians, the Federation, and the Dominion all within the space of a decade. More than likely this is why they began annexing various smaller powers in STO-The largest being the Gorn, simply to try and increase their population and economic base.

 

[Deleted member 1]

Indeed, the Klingon economy was destroyed so they turned to expansionism to support recovery, not unlike Nazi Germany.

 

[bullethead]

The novels have the Klingons start conquering an unexplored part of the Beta Quadrant in order to get more resources to make up for stuff they lost in the war.

 

[Sailor.X]

From what little research I've done the Dominion War was perhaps the most costly war in recent memory in terms of lives and materials lost. Starfleet lost entire fleets to the Dominion/Cardassian Alliance and the Klingons are said to have lost a lot more due to their prior war with the Cardassian and numerous skirmishes with the Federation.


But just how costly was it for the Federation, Klignon and Romulan empires? Hard numbers and figures would be great.

Well considering Betazed was brutally conquered and occupied. I would say the death toll in the Alpha and Beta Quadrant was in the Billions.

The one thing it cost the Federation in the end was their ideals. No longer would Starfleet have a pacifist leadership. That mentality was literally purged out of them. From that point forward Starfleet would be Military like it was in TOS.

 

[AndrewJTalon]

Well considering Betazed was brutally conquered and occupied. I would say the death toll in the Alpha and Beta Quadrant was in the Billions.

The one thing it cost the Federation in the end was their ideals. No longer would Starfleet have a pacifist leadership. That mentality was literally purged out of them. From that point forward Starfleet would be Military like it was in TOS.

Well, yes they would be more militaristic. Yes they would take the universe more seriously. But in the long run, the most important ideals remain. The Federation isn't going to invade or conquer other worlds, they are still going to go out and explore the universe to learn and to boldly go. They aren't a fascistic state.

But they've been woken out of their complacency. A complacency that would have gotten them all killed, enslaved, or assimilated if they'd stayed on that path. To quote Q:

"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid. "

That pacifism and arrogance of the TNG era, from a century of peace with the Klingons and Romulans, almost cost them everything. No longer can Starfleet pretend it isn't a military. They will go out in peace: But to keep that peace, they must be prepared for war. To build the world they want to exist, a peaceful, secure society, you must be willing to fight to defend it.

 

[Sailor.X]

Well, yes they would be more militaristic. Yes they would take the universe more seriously. But in the long run, the most important ideals remain. The Federation isn't going to invade or conquer other worlds, they are still going to go out and explore the universe to learn and to boldly go. They aren't a fascistic state.

But they've been woken out of their complacency. A complacency that would have gotten them all killed, enslaved, or assimilated if they'd stayed on that path. To quote Q:

"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid. "

That pacifism and arrogance of the TNG era, from a century of peace with the Klingons and Romulans, almost cost them everything. No longer can Starfleet pretend it isn't a military. They will go out in peace: But to keep that peace, they must be prepared for war. To build the world they want to exist, a peaceful, secure society, you must be willing to fight to defend it.

I know they want go full Klingon. But I would wager all of the Admirals and high ranking Captains that had the standard TNG mindset got either retired, killed in the war or shoved off into some place in Starfleet that had no bearing on how Starfleet would be run from post Dominon War forward. Aka they got all turned into Staff Officers and not Line Officers.

 

[Deleted member 1]

Well, yes they would be more militaristic. Yes they would take the universe more seriously. But in the long run, the most important ideals remain. The Federation isn't going to invade or conquer other worlds, they are still going to go out and explore the universe to learn and to boldly go. They aren't a fascistic state.

But they've been woken out of their complacency. A complacency that would have gotten them all killed, enslaved, or assimilated if they'd stayed on that path. To quote Q:

"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid. "

That pacifism and arrogance of the TNG era, from a century of peace with the Klingons and Romulans, almost cost them everything. No longer can Starfleet pretend it isn't a military. They will go out in peace: But to keep that peace, they must be prepared for war. To build the world they want to exist, a peaceful, secure society, you must be willing to fight to defend it.

Star Trek Online captures that but I doubt "Picard" will.

 

[AndrewJTalon]

Star Trek Online captures that but I doubt "Picard" will.

I doubt "Picard" will capture anything but a feeling of irritation and boredom from the audience.

 

[AndrewJTalon]

Honestly though, the Post-Dominion War Alpha Quadrant is fascinating if you're A: a fan and B: a good writer.

Cardassia is occupied and being rebuilt under Allied supervision. The Klingons are conquering smaller worlds to rebuild. The Romulans are in chaos from the Hobus Supernova. The Federation is also rebuilding but also trying to explore and expand with the new technology from Voyager. The Voth and the Undine are new potential threats, as well as a resurgent Borg collective (None of that Destiny nonsense or whatever the novels were). And the Iconians might be back, too. All sorts of things!

And yet, no. Just endless prequels and reboots because that's Hollywood now. But anyway, the meta is not the big issue.

Which worlds now part of the Federation might see a surge in joining Starfleet after the war? Which worlds might be concerned about the direction the Federation is taking and might push back?

 

[Sailor.X]

Honestly though, the Post-Dominion War Alpha Quadrant is fascinating if you're A: a fan and B: a good writer.

Cardassia is occupied and being rebuilt under Allied supervision. The Klingons are conquering smaller worlds to rebuild. The Romulans are in chaos from the Hobus Supernova. The Federation is also rebuilding but also trying to explore and expand with the new technology from Voyager. The Voth and the Undine are new potential threats, as well as a resurgent Borg collective (None of that Destiny nonsense or whatever the novels were). And the Iconians might be back, too. All sorts of things!

And yet, no. Just endless prequels and reboots because that's Hollywood now. But anyway, the meta is not the big issue.

Which worlds now part of the Federation might see a surge in joining Starfleet after the war? Which worlds might be concerned about the direction the Federation is taking and might push back?

After the death toll of the Dominion War. Any races giving push back need to get the standard Geech answer......

Dere da Doh!!!

They can just bugger off if they are that dense.

 

[MrBirthday]

a resurgent Borg collective

Am I the only one who prefers the idea of the Borg being a spent force and their technology being assimilated (heh) by the other powers?

 

[AndrewJTalon]

Am I the only one who prefers the idea of the Borg being a spent force and their technology being assimilated (heh) by the other powers?

I don't disagree that it would be nice to focus on newer enemies, but let's be honest: The Borg are iconic for Star Trek now. It'd be like never having Daleks in Doctor Who or Darksiders in Star Wars: You gotta have them because their concepts are so interesting. That said, doing the same thing over and over again with them is tiresome, I don't disagree.

One interesting theory from Memory Beta is that the Borg are something that happens over and over again all over the galaxy: A society becomes cybernetic and develops a hivemind. And inevitably this hivemind becomes an oppressive, genocidal, all consuming force. There could have been several individual Borg collectives that arose and they assimilated each other to become the modern-day Borg Collective we knew of that Admiral Janeway destroyed in 2378. And that inevitably, somewhere else, another Borg Collective will arise.