ASOIAF/GOT The 'Realism' of the World of ASOIAF/GOT

[Lord Sovereign]

Now that I come to think of it, it's quite weird how so many characters in medieval themed stories are irreligious. To the people of such a time, faith was more than a belief it was fact. Someone as vile as Cersei should genuinely believe in the Seven and agonise over her misdeeds sending her to hell, as many Medieval Knights felt. Seriously, Medieval Europe was aware of just how much its warmongering ways went against "thou shalt not kill", which is why the Crusades were so appealing: liberate the Holy Land, and God wipes the slate clean of your sins after His Holiness puts in a good word for you.

It would actually be highly interesting to have a protagonist in such stories, of medieval fantasy, be a genuine believer in God/the Gods and hold in scorn those of other faiths, let alone atheists.

 

[Shipmaster Sane]

"thou shalt not kill"

Murder.

 

[Aldarion]

Now that I come to think of it, it's quite weird how so many characters in medieval themed stories are irreligious. To the people of such a time, faith was more than a belief it was fact. Someone as vile as Cersei should genuinely believe in the Seven and agonise over her misdeeds sending her to hell, as many Medieval Knights felt. Seriously, Medieval Europe was aware of just how much its warmongering ways went against "thou shalt not kill", which is why the Crusades were so appealing: liberate the Holy Land, and God wipes the slate clean of your sins after His Holiness puts in a good word for you.

It would actually be highly interesting to have a protagonist in such stories, of medieval fantasy, be a genuine believer in God/the Gods and hold in scorn those of other faiths, let alone atheists.

That is why I like Warhammer 40 000; it actually captures Medieval politics and mentality much better than something like ASoIaF.

But anyway, as @Shipmaster Sane points out, "thou shalt not kill" is actually "thou shalt not murder". Killing in self-defense or in a just war is not murder; hence why Crusades (which, as a defensive wars, were just) were so popular, yet knights went all the way to the Holy Land - a deed which should not be underestimated for its difficulties - to repent for occasional murder and rape they might have done back at home.

 

[Typhonis]

Where is the food coming from when Winter hits? Honestly where is the food? I mean winter in ASOIAF lasts years. This should tax how things work because certain food types will not be available. Then you have the problem of transporting the stuff through an Artic hellscape where the snow drifts are higher than a person.

 

[Shipmaster Sane]

Where is the food coming from when Winter hits? Honestly where is the food? I mean winter in ASOIAF lasts years. This should tax how things work because certain food types will not be available. Then you have the problem of transporting the stuff through an Artic hellscape where the snow drifts are higher than a person.

A writer might spend years designing a setting around that concept and the knock on effects it would have on culture that would make it different than earth's medieval history.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

A writer might spend years designing a setting around that concept and the knock on effects it would have on culture that would make it different than earth's medieval history.

A writer who wasn't a superficial manchild who read Lord of the Rings in search of the content one would have readily found in Dune or The Looking glass war, or The God Father or Shogun then spent a lifetime going "weelll Tolkien never bothered to take his work seriously! He left so much unfulfilled with that happily ever after stuff".

George R R martin isnt a writer though, least not a serious one.

Neither is Terry Brooks for that matter.

 

[Deleted member 88]

Cersei seems like someone who is too spiritually wretched and psychologically damaged to really consider offending the Gods. She might at some deep level, fear the day she dies because she’ll have to give an account for herself and face the seven hells, but she’s about as sinful as you can imagine.

Tyrion and Jaimie I can legitimately see being sleepless and terrified of dying due to fears of damnation.

(Actually that would make an interesting fanfic-the siblings Lannister spiritual states and concerns).

 

[Lord Sovereign]

(Actually that would make an interesting fanfic-the siblings Lannister spiritual states and concerns).

Even Tywin himself must give some thought as to the keeping of his immortal soul. What he did to the Reynes, let alone the Red Wedding, wouldn't go down well with the Seven and he knows it.

 

[Typhonis]

Another one whom may have problems is
Walder Frey. Betraying his liege lord, The Red Wedding, and everything else. Unless I'm mistaken Rob was riding to the aide of the Tully's , are the not the family Frey owes fealty too? So what does hindering help make Frey?

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Jaimie I can legitimately see being sleepless and terrified of dying due to fears of damnation.

I think to a degree Jaime's already there and also VERY disillusioned with Knighthood

There are many holy vows and at the end of the day, the majority of knights are a bunch of disgusting depraved monsters who would have no issue with killing women and children, torturing women and children, raping women and children and maybe eating women and children alive and would absolutely love to treat Smallfolk like crap

About amongst the only things they'd be really shamed for is disobeying their asshole bosses who do extremely asshole shit and expect said knights to do said asshole shit for him. I bet a good majority of nobles, knights and if the kingsguard had lived, even if they found out Aerys' plan, would STILL have dunked on Jaime.

 

[Shipmaster Sane]

A writer who wasn't a superficial manchild who read Lord of the Rings in search of the content one would have readily found in Dune or The Looking glass war, or The God Father or Shogun then spent a lifetime going "weelll Tolkien never bothered to take his work seriously! He left so much unfulfilled with that happily ever after stuff".

George R R martin isnt a writer though, least not a serious one.

Neither is Terry Brooks for that matter.

Ironically I find GRRM at his strongest when he eschews "politics and gritty personal character drama" and dives into mythology, which seems to be the exact opposite of what he intended.

 

[Deleted member 88]

Fisher King Bran!

Personal theory-Daenerys and Stannis are agents of R'hllor whoever he is, and Bran and Jon are avatars/representatives of the old Gods, and the final struggle or rather balance will be between them, with R'hllor prevailing in Essos, and the weirwood gods in Westeros.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Fisher King Bran!

Personal theory-Daenerys and Stannis are agents of R'hllor whoever he is, and Bran and Jon are avatars/representatives of the old Gods, and the final struggle or rather balance will be between them, with R'hllor prevailing in Essos, and the weirwood gods in Westeros.

So the Faith of the Seven are nothing?

 

[Shipmaster Sane]

Fisher King Bran!

Or, yknow, King Bran The Blessed Bran, who was locked in an unending struggle with an undead horde and had a half brother who was a psychopath that ruined everything and sacrificed himself trying to break the undead curse, and who had a tragic sister beaten by her husband.

Who was reduced to a "talking head" for the last part of his rule and "carried around".

 

[Deleted member 88]

So the Faith of the Seven are nothing?

They'll likely be broken by the Long Night and Euron Greyjoy.

Daenerys will not be so kind either, either given the Faith will likely proclaim Aegon VI.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

They'll likely be broken by the Long Night and Euron Greyjoy.

Daenerys will not be so kind either, either given the Faith will likely proclaim Aegon VI.

There’s always the option of Dany marrying Fake Aegon....then again she prefers Daario and she may decide he’s not a real Targaryen

And even if he is, he kinda puts a stink on her whole plans

I don’t think even he and the Golden Company are any bit against slavery either

 

[Urabrask Revealed]

Now that I come to think of it, it's quite weird how so many characters in medieval themed stories are irreligious. To the people of such a time, faith was more than a belief it was fact. Someone as vile as Cersei should genuinely believe in the Seven and agonise over her misdeeds sending her to hell, as many Medieval Knights felt. Seriously, Medieval Europe was aware of just how much its warmongering ways went against "thou shalt not kill", which is why the Crusades were so appealing: liberate the Holy Land, and God wipes the slate clean of your sins after His Holiness puts in a good word for you.

It would actually be highly interesting to have a protagonist in such stories, of medieval fantasy, be a genuine believer in God/the Gods and hold in scorn those of other faiths, let alone atheists.

Cersei is unintentionally the ultimate fuck you to atheists everywhere. As for "Thou shalt not kill", that's a misstranslation.
It's "Thou shalt not murder", which fits better with the actions the hebrew tribes took to conquer Israel.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

Cersei is unintentionally the ultimate fuck you to atheists everywhere. As for "Thou shalt not kill", that's a misstranslation.
It's "Thou shalt not murder", which fits better with the actions the hebrew tribes took to conquer Israel.

Yes, on further thought I do remember it was more "murder" than "kill." Thou shalt not kill doesn't make too much sense in more savage times when, in defense of your life you didn't have much of an option.

All in all, this thread has been absolutely fascinating for me as the Middle Ages aren't quite my strong point. Indeed, I get the impression that the time period, whilst far from pleasant, has a bit of an undeserved reputation for being filthy, backwards and brutal. It could be those things, just not to the extent many think.

 

[Aldarion]

has a bit of an undeserved reputation for being filthy, backwards and brutal.

That is an understatement of century. In fact, Middle Ages were much cleaner than Renaissance: you know that reputation for not bathing? That only came around during the Renaissance and Early Modern Period, while during Middle Ages people actually bathed regularly and were rather clean. Church did disapprove of bathhouses, but that was for a different reason (promiscuity, prostitution, syphillis, and so on).

 

[Firebat]

To the people of such a time, faith was more than a belief it was fact. Someone as vile as Cersei should genuinely believe in the Seven and agonise over her misdeeds sending her to hell, as many Medieval Knights felt

One should not confuse people being religious with people being pious.
Medieval knights, allegedly highly concerned about being sent to hell for their misdeeds, thought nothing about chasing Pope Gregory VII into Hadrian's mausoleum and keeping him under siege at the behest of excommunicated King of the Germans Henry IV.
The idea of Cersei agonizing over her deeds in the night - it's not medieval, it's 19th century romaticism.

Your typical RL Cersei equivalents agonized over which cleric to raise as (anti-)Pope and how to get rid of the current one. Hence events like Western Schism, when Catholic Church spent half a century in a state of collapse and had to be un-borked by the Emperor Sigismund.
And it worked - mostly because Sigismund harbored no illusions about his contemporaries and their piety. So he spent a few years spending big bucks and busting balls until finally everyone agreed to stop this shameful display and restore a measure of dignity to the office of the Pope.
Also, there was a lot of luck involved. Because French court considered invading Italy and getting rid of Roman Pope by force of arms and thus legitimizing their own Pope. Fortunately for the Catholic Church, the English invaded and French became too busy being beaten and humiliated for any foreign adventures. But it is a sufficient demonstration of how RL Cersei counterparts viewed the world, religion and Holy Father in particular.

So Cersei is pretty typical in that regard. She engages in replacing a Pope and tries to play politics with the one she can't simply get rid of. With a caveat that local Pope equivalent is much less important politically, so one does not have to spend nearly as much time on the matter.

So the Faith of the Seven are nothing?

Faith of the Seven is not magical, if that's what you are implying.
Then again, so are all other faiths. The Old Gods, the Drowned God, the Red God - they do not grant power or manifest themselves in any practical way. A few of their followers that have magic, but it's a case of a wizard being religious, not religion guaranteeing D&D-style divine powers.