ASOIAF/GOT The 'Realism' of the World of ASOIAF/GOT

Airedale260

Well-known member
Yeah... whenever you drop a major historical force into Planetos (11th century Byzantine Empire, 15th century Hungary, hell, even 15th century Holy Roman Empire), result appears to be "they conquer everything, everywhere".

Sure, because those forces have been repeatedly forced to adapt to new realities; they know they need any competitive edge they can get against their neighbors/other rivals; they have been taught that God really does exist and will judge their eternal souls for their treatment of their fellow humans, from their closest vassals to the humblest peasants; etc, etc. "Noblesse oblige" is a very real concept to these people. Not that there weren't cynics, of course, but that came later with the Renaissance and the Enlightenment and the 19th century. Even to those, however, they recognized that a content, decently treated commoner, whether peasant or yeoman or whomever, was much less inclined to rebel and stir up trouble, and thereby it was in everyone's interest to make sure people were treated, if not decently, then well enough that they didn't go around causing problems.

Joffrey would probably murder the Mongol emissary and condemn the Seven Kingdoms to God's most terrible punishment. And I would pay to see this, because the Mongols are so fucking badass.

For that just get books on the fall of the Khwarezm Empire. Because that is literally what happened and why they collapsed. Granted I don't know if the emperor in question was as much of a psycho as Joffrey, but not only did the emperor do that, but Genghis Khan (yes, that Genghis Khan), was actually quite restrained at first by sending a second group of emissaries and going "Uh, look, we're willing to chalk this up as a major misunderstanding and won't be vengeful about this, but WTF dude, and if you mess with us again we're going to destroy you." I think you can guess what happened next...
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
I mean, any real medieval force would beat Westeros' "hordes of peasants literally armed with sharp sticks".

I will note that that idea is not necessarily true:
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
I will note that that idea is not necessarily true:
Agreed, Westerosi armies don't appear to be armed peasants. If anything it errs on the opposite side with it's absurdly large armies of professional soldiers, such as the aforementioned Renly having 100,000 men hanging around on standby during peacetime. The actual response to real-world armies meeting Westerosi should be amazement that they're able to pay and feed such obscenely large armies. They'd likely then discover that said armies are incompetently lead with tactics that are either outdated or rely on technology Westeros doesn't actually have, but for size those armies are hard to beat by anybody in real life save either modern forces or the Romans at their height.
 

Circle of Willis

Well-known member
Wasn't a reason that medieval armies were so small, besides the logistical and administrative constraints, that they were actually quite professional? Knights were trained in combat from childhood and weren't supposed to ever stop training until they died, after all. Mercenaries were obviously professional soldiers by trade, since no lord was going to waste money on 'mercs' who were just peasants with sticks. And the urban militias, of whom the Flemish and Italians were most famous (but which were maintained by pretty much every medieval city of note, IIRC), were hardly conscripted paupers either - they drilled regularly with 'common' weapons like spears and crossbows. When it was time to fight, medieval kingdoms (like any other sensible person) preferred to have men who knew how to fight do the fighting.

To my understanding, this idea of the medieval army being a horde of untrained & poorly equipped peasant draftees (or even volunteers) - the 'Broken Men' of Septon Meribald's speech - around a small chivalric core is a complete anachronism. If it ever happened such a thing would have been an anomaly brought on by extremely desperate circumstances, since even ignoring social constraints & attitudes toward arming one's peasantry, serfs who have no clue how to fight are much more useful being left to farm (so as to feed the professional soldiers in the field) rather than being pushed into the battlefield.

In that regard ASOIAF/GOT's more than a bit inconsistent, again. The picture painted by that Broken Man speech couldn't be more different from what we actually see of armies on-screen, both in the books and the show: disciplined professional troops numbering in the tens or hundreds of thousands, capable of complex maneuvers and armed & attired uniformly (the books are a bit better in this regard since troops wear the livery of the house they serve, on the show there aren't even regimental differentiations such as those that existed in real Renaissance/early modern armies - every single soldier for every house is decked out identically to their comrades). They looked and behaved much more like armies from the Thirty Years' War than one from any year that falls in the medieval period.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
Agreed, Westerosi armies don't appear to be armed peasants. If anything it errs on the opposite side with it's absurdly large armies of professional soldiers, such as the aforementioned Renly having 100,000 men hanging around on standby during peacetime. The actual response to real-world armies meeting Westerosi should be amazement that they're able to pay and feed such obscenely large armies. They'd likely then discover that said armies are incompetently lead with tactics that are either outdated or rely on technology Westeros doesn't actually have, but for size those armies are hard to beat by anybody in real life save either modern forces or the Romans at their height.

You forgot Ottomans. And Hungarians IIRC put a few times armies of similar size in the field, though they weren't able to do so consistently, unlike the Ottoman Empire.

Wasn't a reason that medieval armies were so small, besides the logistical and administrative constraints, that they were actually quite professional? Knights were trained in combat from childhood and weren't supposed to ever stop training until they died, after all. Mercenaries were obviously professional soldiers by trade, since no lord was going to waste money on 'mercs' who were just peasants with sticks. And the urban militias, of whom the Flemish and Italians were most famous (but which were maintained by pretty much every medieval city of note, IIRC), were hardly conscripted paupers either - they drilled regularly with 'common' weapons like spears and crossbows. When it was time to fight, medieval kingdoms (like any other sensible person) preferred to have men who knew how to fight do the fighting.

To my understanding, this idea of the medieval army being a horde of untrained & poorly equipped peasant draftees (or even volunteers) - the 'Broken Men' of Septon Meribald's speech - around a small chivalric core is a complete anachronism. If it ever happened such a thing would have been an anomaly brought on by extremely desperate circumstances, since even ignoring social constraints & attitudes toward arming one's peasantry, serfs who have no clue how to fight are much more useful being left to farm (so as to feed the professional soldiers in the field) rather than being pushed into the battlefield.

In that regard ASOIAF/GOT's more than a bit inconsistent, again. The picture painted by that Broken Man speech couldn't be more different from what we actually see of armies on-screen, both in the books and the show: disciplined professional troops numbering in the tens or hundreds of thousands, capable of complex maneuvers and armed & attired uniformly (the books are a bit better in this regard since troops wear the livery of the house they serve, on the show there aren't even regimental differentiations such as those that existed in real Renaissance/early modern armies - every single soldier for every house is decked out identically to their comrades). They looked and behaved much more like armies from the Thirty Years' War than one from any year that falls in the medieval period.

Pretty much, yeah. Though there were militias / draftees in some cases: you had for example Hungarian Militia Portalis, where landowners would equip one soldier from every 20 tennant plots. But even these were not Martin's sticks-and-pitchforks peasants, but rather semi-professional soldiers or at worst regularly-raised conscripts (which ended up being essentially the same thing, considering the accumulation of experience), akin to Byzantine thematic armies more than anything else.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
You forgot Ottomans. And Hungarians IIRC put a few times armies of similar size in the field, though they weren't able to do so consistently, unlike the Ottoman Empire.
Naw. The Ottoman Empire as of 1572 had about 18,000 full-time soldiers and 90,000 auxiliaries (Timariots), about on par with Renly by himself, much less the eight dozen other lords with similar forces. The Ottomans also had vastly superior logistics to GoT and still couldn't deploy their whole army in one place at a time, much less have 100,000 dudes standing around just in case, much less multiple people doing that. Now get to the 18th-19th century and the Ottomans were indeed ramped up to a couple million but then you're into modern forces and that doesn't compare.

The thing to remember when I listed 100,000 for Renly is that's just Renly. Not their whole army, one guy who was barely a contender in the Game itself.
 

Airedale260

Well-known member
@Circle of Willis is largely correct as to the reason medieval armies were so small: 100,000 is a ridiculous number to field, but that’s also a combination of Reach and Stormlands levies; it doesn’t seem that Westeros really has any sort of professional standing forces, much less a dedicated logistical organization.

If I had to guess, he was able to keep them in the field so long because he was moving at glacial speeds and not actually having them exert themselves. Notably, when he moves to confront Stannis, the bulk of his force is left behind.

Again, I think George just comes up with these numbers because he really sucks at math and geography in addition to history (one guy ruling a continent the size of South America? Really? Even an approximation of Russia or China is difficult, and those states as we know them only came into being a couple centuries after the Middle Ages ended, and even today they’re still largely wasteland with some cities and towns here and there; the populations are actually clustered in a fairly small band).

Hell, according to George, Casterly Rock is taller than the World Trade Center, and area-wise it’s the size of San Francisco. Yeah...

Sure, in a pitched battle Westeros could field enough troops to win against a European army, but those armies would instead avoid engaging directly and instead go for a war of attrition (like many other wars in European history). Numbers don’t mean jack without logistical support, and once they need to reshoot they’re SOL.
 

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
On the other end of the spectrum, in regards to how badly armed and armoured some Westerosi soldiers are, you have the Lannisters and the Tyrells who somehow manage to equip their vast armies with plate armour. Not brigandine, not gambeson, plate for the common soldier. I'm surprised the two Houses have any money left with such an army's upkeep. The vast majority of the Roman Empire's revenue went on the maintenance of the Legions, and most of them weren't wearing lorica segmentata.
 

Circle of Willis

Well-known member
On the other end of the spectrum, in regards to how badly armed and armoured some Westerosi soldiers are, you have the Lannisters and the Tyrells who somehow manage to equip their vast armies with plate armour. Not brigandine, not gambeson, plate for the common soldier. I'm surprised the two Houses have any money left with such an army's upkeep. The vast majority of the Roman Empire's revenue went on the maintenance of the Legions, and most of them weren't wearing lorica segmentata.
I touched on this previously, but it was another thing that eventually came to really bug me: the uniformity of GoT's armies. Each house fields thousands upon thousands of soldiers who aren't just professional fighters, but who are equipped to the exact same high standard beyond what should be possible even with late medieval/Renaissance munition-armor manufactories. And it's not even just the Tyrells or Lannisters, but also houses which are supposed to be comparatively poor like Stark and Baratheon of Dragonstone as well.

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I can understand wanting your armies to have uniforms so the audience can easily tell who's fighting for who, but damn. Even 16-17th century armies had wildly varying regimental standards and uniforms, as past attempts at making tercios for tabletop wargaming have taught me. Just compare the sheer sameness of the above soldiers to three guys from three different units of the Royalist army in the English Civil War:

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The books had the grace to have soldiers wear the colors and livery of the lord they served directly, so an armsman of House Lefford (Lannister vassal) for example would have worn his house's blue and gold even while marching under the lion of Lannister, which is a little more reasonable than the nonsense the show had going. And at least when the Lord of the Rings films featured Gondorian armies in matching plate, it also made a point to show them being consistently outnumbered, not matching the Orcs they fought practically man-for-Orc.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
Naw. The Ottoman Empire as of 1572 had about 18,000 full-time soldiers and 90,000 auxiliaries (Timariots), about on par with Renly by himself, much less the eight dozen other lords with similar forces. The Ottomans also had vastly superior logistics to GoT and still couldn't deploy their whole army in one place at a time, much less have 100,000 dudes standing around just in case, much less multiple people doing that. Now get to the 18th-19th century and the Ottomans were indeed ramped up to a couple million but then you're into modern forces and that doesn't compare.

The thing to remember when I listed 100,000 for Renly is that's just Renly. Not their whole army, one guy who was barely a contender in the Game itself.

What you listed are basically standing forces. Thing is, Ottomans were able to quickly recruit rather inane numbers of irregular troops - what we would today call bandits. What you call "auxilliaries" were, in fact, professional soldiers modeled on Byzantine pronoia system of land grants (so similar to earlier thematic system). Ottoman professional army consisted of 18 000 janissaries and 90 000 Timariot Sipahis. Actual auxilliaries were Azabs (light infantry, essentially peasant militia) and Akincis (light cavalry, basically horsed bandits). These could be, depending on the campaign, just as numerous if not more numerous than the regular army. As a result, even when Hungary was still able to maintain parity with Ottomans in terms of actual professional troops (those 108 000 you mention in 1572), it was in reality hopelessly outnumbered thanks to Ottoman ability to raise hordes of motivated irregulars at drop of the hat. At Mohacs, Ottoman army counted 45 000 sipahis, 15 000 janissaries and maybe 10 000 irregulars (which is supported by Tomori who estimated it at 70 000); but this was after many of irregular troops had been detached to prevent Croatian and Transylvanian forces from joining the King at Mohacs. Overall army might have reached 100 000 for

As for Renly, his army did not number 100 000. He had 20 000 cavalry and 60 000 infantry. This might sound unrealistic, but look at the above numbers: Hungarians at Mohacs had a total of 25 000 troops. Of those, there were 10 000 infantry and 15 000 cavalry. Each soldier would require 1,36 kg of grain per day, while horse would require 4,54 kg of grain per day. Now, each cavalryman would have three horses - a combat horse, a riding horse and a pack horse. Oh, and since we are talking about a) feudal army and b) men in full plate, this also means a squire, so that's two men and four horses. Let's add a pack horse per each 10 infantry as well, which was a Roman standard (while Medieval infantry was often mounted, Renly's definitely isn't). Thus we have: 10 infantry = 10 men + 1 horse = 18,14 kg of grain per day; 10 cavalry = 20 men + 40 horses = 208,8 kg of grain per day. Renly's army of 20 000 cavalry and 60 000 infantry would need 526 440 kg of grain per day.

Hungarian army at Mohacs, as I said, 10 000 infantry and 15 000 cavalry. There is a question of whether cavalry was light or heavy, but during 15th century there were similar-sized armies with majority-heavy cavalry. But let's say 10 000 light cavalry (with no squires) and 5 000 heavy cavalry (with squires). This means 20 000 men and 50 000 horses for cavalry, plus 10 000 men and 1 000 horses for infantry. Overall result is 30 000 men and 51 000 horses, consuming 272 340 kg of grain per day. Black Army, with 20 000 cavalry and 8 000 infantry, would mean 70 800 horses and 38 000 men, which means 373 112 kg of grain per day.

Now, yes, Renly's army does consume much more than any of the armies listed - but it is not an order-of-magnitude difference. And unlike Hungarian armies noted here, which were actually deployed into combat, Renly's army was basically lazing around in friendly territory and at point where it could easily be resupplied: actual camp was at Bitterbridge, where River Mander meets Roseroad. I have no problem believing that, with enough ships, an army that size could be supplied indefinitely. Now, such a large army couldn't be taken into combat: but that wasn't the point anyway, and when Renly went into combat situation, he took "only" 20 000 cavalry with him, which is eminently doable (note that Black Army had 20 000 cavalry and 8 000 infantry on top).

On the other end of the spectrum, in regards to how badly armed and armoured some Westerosi soldiers are, you have the Lannisters and the Tyrells who somehow manage to equip their vast armies with plate armour. Not brigandine, not gambeson, plate for the common soldier. I'm surprised the two Houses have any money left with such an army's upkeep. The vast majority of the Roman Empire's revenue went on the maintenance of the Legions, and most of them weren't wearing lorica segmentata.

I don't see any problem with that, at least if it is heavy infantry. This is 15th century Hungarian infantry:
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Clipeati (left) does not have any armour beyond helmet and the gorget, but the armati on the right is actually better armoured than most of infantry - in either the books or the show. EDIT: Of course, if we are talking about the show, then yes, armies would not have been anywhere as unformly equipped as presented. But I chalk that up to the costume department.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
What you listed are basically standing forces. Thing is, Ottomans were able to quickly recruit rather inane numbers of irregular troops - what we would today call bandits. What you call "auxilliaries" were, in fact, professional soldiers modeled on Byzantine pronoia system of land grants (so similar to earlier thematic system). Ottoman professional army consisted of 18 000 janissaries and 90 000 Timariot Sipahis. Actual auxilliaries were Azabs (light infantry, essentially peasant militia) and Akincis (light cavalry, basically horsed bandits). These could be, depending on the campaign, just as numerous if not more numerous than the regular army. As a result, even when Hungary was still able to maintain parity with Ottomans in terms of actual professional troops (those 108 000 you mention in 1572), it was in reality hopelessly outnumbered thanks to Ottoman ability to raise hordes of motivated irregulars at drop of the hat. At Mohacs, Ottoman army counted 45 000 sipahis, 15 000 janissaries and maybe 10 000 irregulars (which is supported by Tomori who estimated it at 70 000); but this was after many of irregular troops had been detached to prevent Croatian and Transylvanian forces from joining the King at Mohacs. Overall army might have reached 100 000 for

As for Renly, his army did not number 100 000. He had 20 000 cavalry and 60 000 infantry. This might sound unrealistic, but look at the above numbers: Hungarians at Mohacs had a total of 25 000 troops. Of those, there were 10 000 infantry and 15 000 cavalry. Each soldier would require 1,36 kg of grain per day, while horse would require 4,54 kg of grain per day. Now, each cavalryman would have three horses - a combat horse, a riding horse and a pack horse. Oh, and since we are talking about a) feudal army and b) men in full plate, this also means a squire, so that's two men and four horses. Let's add a pack horse per each 10 infantry as well, which was a Roman standard (while Medieval infantry was often mounted, Renly's definitely isn't). Thus we have: 10 infantry = 10 men + 1 horse = 18,14 kg of grain per day; 10 cavalry = 20 men + 40 horses = 208,8 kg of grain per day. Renly's army of 20 000 cavalry and 60 000 infantry would need 526 440 kg of grain per day.

Hungarian army at Mohacs, as I said, 10 000 infantry and 15 000 cavalry. There is a question of whether cavalry was light or heavy, but during 15th century there were similar-sized armies with majority-heavy cavalry. But let's say 10 000 light cavalry (with no squires) and 5 000 heavy cavalry (with squires). This means 20 000 men and 50 000 horses for cavalry, plus 10 000 men and 1 000 horses for infantry. Overall result is 30 000 men and 51 000 horses, consuming 272 340 kg of grain per day. Black Army, with 20 000 cavalry and 8 000 infantry, would mean 70 800 horses and 38 000 men, which means 373 112 kg of grain per day.

Now, yes, Renly's army does consume much more than any of the armies listed - but it is not an order-of-magnitude difference. And unlike Hungarian armies noted here, which were actually deployed into combat, Renly's army was basically lazing around in friendly territory and at point where it could easily be resupplied: actual camp was at Bitterbridge, where River Mander meets Roseroad. I have no problem believing that, with enough ships, an army that size could be supplied indefinitely. Now, such a large army couldn't be taken into combat: but that wasn't the point anyway, and when Renly went into combat situation, he took "only" 20 000 cavalry with him, which is eminently doable (note that Black Army had 20 000 cavalry and 8 000 infantry on top).
The big difference you're missing here is that you're comparing entire empires to Renly on his own. Renly isn't a nation, he's not the holder of his own kingdom, he's not even treated as super-wealthy in-setting. Renly's just this one guy and not even considered a major player compared to Stannis, the Starks, or the Lannisters. Renly's army represents an order of magnitude difference not because his personal army is vaster than anything anybody fielded in real life, but because he is a relatively minor player and still compares favorably with entire major nations just with basically his household guards. When you factor in everybody else's armies then you get to ludicrous orders of magnitude numbers.

@Circle of Willis is largely correct as to the reason medieval armies were so small: 100,000 is a ridiculous number to field, but that’s also a combination of Reach and Stormlands levies; it doesn’t seem that Westeros really has any sort of professional standing forces, much less a dedicated logistical organization.

If I had to guess, he was able to keep them in the field so long because he was moving at glacial speeds and not actually having them exert themselves. Notably, when he moves to confront Stannis, the bulk of his force is left behind.

Again, I think George just comes up with these numbers because he really sucks at math and geography in addition to history (one guy ruling a continent the size of South America? Really? Even an approximation of Russia or China is difficult, and those states as we know them only came into being a couple centuries after the Middle Ages ended, and even today they’re still largely wasteland with some cities and towns here and there; the populations are actually clustered in a fairly small band).

Hell, according to George, Casterly Rock is taller than the World Trade Center, and area-wise it’s the size of San Francisco. Yeah...

Sure, in a pitched battle Westeros could field enough troops to win against a European army, but those armies would instead avoid engaging directly and instead go for a war of attrition (like many other wars in European history). Numbers don’t mean jack without logistical support, and once they need to reshoot they’re SOL.
I touched on this previously, but it was another thing that eventually came to really bug me: the uniformity of GoT's armies. Each house fields thousands upon thousands of soldiers who aren't just professional fighters, but who are equipped to the exact same high standard beyond what should be possible even with late medieval/Renaissance munition-armor manufactories. And it's not even just the Tyrells or Lannisters, but also houses which are supposed to be comparatively poor like Stark and Baratheon of Dragonstone as well.
Yeah, TV shows in general love plate armor ahead of everything else... because injection molding a solid plastic breastplate is vastly easier and cheaper than making thousands of rings for mail. Said plate armor can also be swapped between extras easily and a head-covering mask means "killed" extras can be reused abundantly. More fitted, flexible armor like lorica segmentata or brigadine with multiple moving parts take more labor both to make and to fit to the extra's body.

The fact that the armor is produced that way also makes it really easy to mass-produce it and equip every extra with the same breastplate hence the surprisingly identically equipped minions.

That said I'm usually willing to forgive this kind of unrealism in TV shows as it's less not giving a fig and more being constrained by budget and the realities of making a show. In the same vein I'm fairly forgiving of, say, the Riders of Rohan doing charges with their lances held up in the air because it would be dangerous to the extras for them to be riding on horseback in such a tight formation and also holding pointy objects, even relatively flimsy plastic ones, in such close proximity to each other's heads without years of training.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Nah. They want to make money, damn the consequences. The major problem with our modern elites is that they are self made men without roots. They are multinationals who feel little connection to their homelands, not tied to them by ancient blood or have an illustrious heritage to live up to. Religion's power to encourage charity and moral virtue has faded significantly.
Spiritually they are...poor in a way. Thus, they simply don't care and seek to accumulate more wealth and power above all else, no matter how self destructive it proves in the long run.

In some respects, the poor bastards are the result of a broken culture instead of its cause. They have nothing in their lives but accumulation.

Problem is - at least part of them had roots.Occult ones.Old as Pitagoras and his try to build perfect city with perfect people.
In his time Krotona citizens made right thing and killed him and his pupils - but unfortunatelly,nobody did it in 1789 or 1917,so we are where we are.In occult shit.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
The big difference you're missing here is that you're comparing entire empires to Renly on his own. Renly isn't a nation, he's not the holder of his own kingdom, he's not even treated as super-wealthy in-setting. Renly's just this one guy and not even considered a major player compared to Stannis, the Starks, or the Lannisters. Renly's army represents an order of magnitude difference not because his personal army is vaster than anything anybody fielded in real life, but because he is a relatively minor player and still compares favorably with entire major nations just with basically his household guards. When you factor in everybody else's armies then you get to ludicrous orders of magnitude numbers.

That is not actually correct. Renly by his marriage gained allegiance of the Tyrells - which means Reach. And big houses in Westeros are treated pretty much like nation-states: when Starks call, majority of the North mobilizes. When Stannis called, his entire army left to the Wall. Tywin can count on pretty much the entirety of Westerlands - overall, only the Riverlands are handled in a way that is realistically feudal. So Renly may not be a nation, but he does have support of one. Just because of Tyrells, Renly is a major player.

His household guards, btw, number in hundreds, if even that.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
That is not actually correct. Renly by his marriage gained allegiance of the Tyrells - which means Reach. And big houses in Westeros are treated pretty much like nation-states: when Starks call, majority of the North mobilizes. When Stannis called, his entire army left to the Wall. Tywin can count on pretty much the entirety of Westerlands - overall, only the Riverlands are handled in a way that is realistically feudal. So Renly may not be a nation, but he does have support of one. Just because of Tyrells, Renly is a major player.

His household guards, btw, number in hundreds, if even that.
Now you're splitting hairs about definitions, and actually making your own position worse. Renly is a bit player in the story and yet still has an army available that would be the match of most empires in Europe. He's married into Tyrell? But he's not head of the family, that's Mace. Which means Renly's absurd guard isn't house Tyrell's army, it's what house Tyrell can spare for him to play with. How staggering must house Tyrell be, then, at full power instead of what they can spare for Renly to pal around with? And how vast are the other, more powerful houses than eclipse Tyrell in wealth (Lannister) and size/power (Stark)?
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
Now you're splitting hairs about definitions, and actually making your own position worse. Renly is a bit player in the story and yet still has an army available that would be the match of most empires in Europe. He's married into Tyrell? But he's not head of the family, that's Mace. Which means Renly's absurd guard isn't house Tyrell's army, it's what house Tyrell can spare for him to play with. How staggering must house Tyrell be, then, at full power instead of what they can spare for Renly to pal around with? And how vast are the other, more powerful houses than eclipse Tyrell in wealth (Lannister) and size/power (Stark)?

Renly is not head of the family, but a) he is related to Robert (who is former king), b) has support of the Stormlands and c) is a Baratheon. Since Stannis is already married, the only option for Tyrells to get into the royal family is to support Renly, kill off Stannis, and make Renly a king. If it weren't for that, they would not have had Margaery marry Renly, meaning he wouldn't have gained their army.

And yes, by all indications, what Tyrells gave Renly is majority (I never said it was entirety, but you don't need tens of thousands of men to hold few key castles in pre-gunpowder age, especially during peacetime) of their army. And where did you get that Lannisters and Starks are more powerful than Tyrells? Tyrells are, in terms of wealth and armed forces, the most powerful house in Westeros. Lannisters have reputation for wealth, but that is due to the gold mines; Tyrells however have food, manpower and every other form of wealth that is not shiny metal (and they have quite a bit of that, too). As for Starks, their strength isn't army: it is the North itself. But if you had entirety of Tyrell army on one side and entirety of Stark army on the other side in a set-piece battle, Tyrells would have enough troops to crush the Starks, or at least have a good shot at winning, while still having enough troops to spare to face and stalemate one other house (such as aforementioned Lannisters) in the field.

EDIT: These are my old calculations for sizes of armies in ASoIaF. To sum it up:
  • Ground troops: 244 500 (191 600 infantry, 52 900 cavalry)
    • North: 29 500 (22 500 infantry, 7 000 cavalry)
    • Riverlands: 20 000 (14 500 infantry, 5 500 cavalry)
    • Westerlands: 35 000 (28 000 infantry, 7 000 cavalry)
    • Crownlands: 20 000 (16 600 infantry, 3 400 cavalry)
    • Stormlands: 25 000 (20 000 infantry, 5 000 cavalry)
    • Reach: 65 000 (50 000 infantry, 15 000 cavalry)
    • Vale: 25 000 (20 000 infantry, 5 000 cavalry)
    • Dorne: 25 000 (20 000 infantry, 5 000 cavalry)
  • Naval force: 1 180 ships, 152 500 men
    • Crownlands: 260 ships, 42 250 men
    • Reach: 220 ships, 35 750 men
    • Westerlands: 200 ships, 32 500 men
    • Iron Islands: 500 ships, 42 000 men
  • TOTAL: 397 000 men
And I was trying to be conservative with numbers, meaning some of these could well have been larger.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
And yes, by all indications, what Tyrells gave Renly is majority (I never said it was entirety, but you don't need tens of thousands of men to hold few key castles in pre-gunpowder age, especially during peacetime) of their army. And where did you get that Lannisters and Starks are more powerful than Tyrells? Tyrells are, in terms of wealth and armed forces, the most powerful house in Westeros.
Was a Tyrell made Queen or a Lannister? Did house Tyrell sack Casterly Rock or did house Lannister sack Highgarden? Did Robb Stark lose in battle or was he only beaten because he was betrayed at the Red Wedding?

If house Tyrell was actually more powerful, wealthy, and had larger armed forces it should actually show in the story, not them being an also-ran who's contribution is to support others. They should be able to actually win battles, take high positions, conquer territories, etc. They don't, so it's hard to say they're the most powerful, they just job for the more important families. I'll grant on paper they should be, and that would be the case if the universe of GoT was... realistic.
 

Airedale260

Well-known member
Now you're splitting hairs about definitions, and actually making your own position worse. Renly is a bit player in the story and yet still has an army available that would be the match of most empires in Europe. He's married into Tyrell? But he's not head of the family, that's Mace. Which means Renly's absurd guard isn't house Tyrell's army, it's what house Tyrell can spare for him to play with. How staggering must house Tyrell be, then, at full power instead of what they can spare for Renly to pal around with? And how vast are the other, more powerful houses than eclipse Tyrell in wealth (Lannister) and size/power (Stark)?

Again, that isn’t a private army...those are the numbers of combined levies from the Reach and the Stormlands. I’d guess probably a 60/40 or maybe 65/35 split, but they aren’t a “house guard” which in ASOIAF/GOT terms means “security detail for the family and the castle.”

In Crusader Kings terms, these are the numbers you get for levies,not retinues, which appear to barely exist (they do, but in really small numbers).

If house Tyrell was actually more powerful, wealthy, and had larger armed forces it should actually show in the story, not them being an also-ran who's contribution is to support others. They should be able to actually win battles, take high positions, conquer territories, etc. They don't, so it's hard to say they're the most powerful, they just job for the more important families. I'll grant on paper they should be, and that would be the case if the universe of GoT was... realistic.

It wasn’t displayed in the show because B&W suck at this, but by the time of A Feast For Crows and A Dance With Dragons it is very clear that the Lannisters are only hanging on because of Tyrell backing.

To elaborate further...at the end of Robert’s Rebellion in 283, Mace Tyrell was busy besieging Storm’s End, partly because if the castle had fallen, the loyalists would have Robert’s brothers and his home (see all the comments about what good is a king who has lost his home, etc, regarding Robb Stark). Also, nobody really was fond of Aerys at that point, so Mace likely figured a loyalist win would displace the rebel houses and bring the Tyrells to the fore. That obviously didn’t work, but it wasn’t as stupid a thought as it seemed...remember, even in universe, a lot of people agreed that Robert seemed doomed to fail until he took Gulltown.

Anyway. The Tyrells are a weird case because, like the Tullys, they were raised up over other, more established houses when the main Gardener line perished. And the Tyrells have struggled to maintain their grip, but they can also play their vassals off one another (and thanks to rebellions trying to unseat them in the past, they’ve gotten a few chances to slap down overmighty vassals with the backing of the crown).

They are, in fact, the second-richest house in Westeros, on account of being the lords of the breadbasket of the Seven Kingdoms. Again, in Crusader Kings terms...yeah, the Lannisters have insanely productive gold mines as do some of their vassals, but the Tyrells have insanely high levels of farmlands and other highly productive and valuable terrain. So not only do they get taxes and such from that, but it also means they can field a large army and keep it supplied.

As for the North...look, I love the Starks as much as anyone, but while the North is big it’s also largely empty...and Jaehaerys I and Alysanne also yoinked some of their most productive farmland as a gift to the Night’s Watch, who, being unable to maintain it, let it go to hell...and also screwed the North even further.

Though I will note the North has the advantage of being impossible to completely conquer, like the U.S., Canada, or Russia...it’s too big. Now if anyone can ever figure out how to make what the North has more productive in terms of food and infrastructure? Look out, Andals...
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
Was a Tyrell made Queen or a Lannister? Did house Tyrell sack Casterly Rock or did house Lannister sack Highgarden? Did Robb Stark lose in battle or was he only beaten because he was betrayed at the Red Wedding?

1) Cersei was made a queen because Tywin actively made Robert a king. Meanwhile Tyrells "merely" stood out of the way.
2) Sack of Highgarden only happened in that fanfic-that-shall-not-be-named, courtesy of a teleporting army. In books, Tywin and other Lannisters have to tiptoe around Tyrells precisely because they are so powerful.
3) Robb Stark "won all the battles yet was losing the war" as he himself said it. And he was losing the war precisely because he was so heavily outnumbered - no matter how many victories he won, his enemies always had more troops, and his need for troops for southern war meant he was unable to protect Winterfell. And after Tyrells joined Lannisters, the only way of survival for him was to surrender and ask for clemency. Red Wedding only happened because Robb had, at that point, already lost the war.

If house Tyrell was actually more powerful, wealthy, and had larger armed forces it should actually show in the story, not them being an also-ran who's contribution is to support others. They should be able to actually win battles, take high positions, conquer territories, etc. They don't, so it's hard to say they're the most powerful, they just job for the more important families. I'll grant on paper they should be, and that would be the case if the universe of GoT was... realistic.

And it does show. Read Small Council scenes with Mace Tyrell and Kevan Lannister: Kevan's thoughts are basically "this guy is a bloody moron, but I must not anger him because our survival depends on their goodwill". Tyrells are taking over all important positions, yet Kevan is unable to do anything about it because Lannister survival depends on the Tyrells - and both he and Mace know it.

GoT isn't just unrealistic, it is also stupid, and (in its later seasons) has next to nothing to do with the books it is based on.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
GoT isn't just unrealistic, it is also stupid, and (in its later seasons) has next to nothing to do with the books it is based on.
It wasn’t displayed in the show because B&W suck at this, but by the time of A Feast For Crows and A Dance With Dragons it is very clear that the Lannisters are only hanging on because of Tyrell backing.
I think I need to quote myself here:
I read the books though I didn't watch the show past the first episode, it's gore and nudity not being to my taste.
The books are entirely what I've based my opinions off of aside from one episode and a clip here and there in the show. And I got a very different impression from ya'll. You can say the books imply X but I disagree, because I'm looking more at the narrative impact than numbers written in some chart and then ignored. The fact is that when it was time to pick a queen, Robert went with a Lannister (he didn't even like) rather than a Tyrell. When it was time for his son to pick a queen, he went to get a Stark rather than a Tyrell and eventually Tyrell got their turn only as a silver medal when a Stark wasn't available. In the War of the Five Kings

Narratively it also makes no sense. If Tyrell had as many soldiers as any two other groups in the War of the Five Kings, why were they acting as backup and support to Lannister rather than the other way around? Well, because you've mistated their power. I had to dig my old books out to get the quotes but here we go:

In chapter 39 of Clash of Kings we get a look at what happens to Renly's personal army, who turn tail and join Stannis after Melisande's sorcery kills Renly. Whcih begs the question, if Renly's personal dudes were all house Tyrell's troops and and they mostly turned around and joined Stannis, how was Tyrell being the backbone of support to Lannister? And why did all Tyrell's troops turn traitor instead of supporting Reach? Answer from the book itself:

Only a short time before, the Fossoways, Guyard Morrigen, and the Lords Caron, Varner, Errol, and Estermont had all belonged to Renly. They had sat in his pavilion, helped him make his battle plans, plotted how Stannis might be brought low.

Renly's army joined Stannis after Renly's death. Which is really, really weird if his army was on loan from Mace. But if his army wasn't but was his personal dudes, then that makes sense and my position is correct. Which is the case?

Houses Fossoway (Green Apple and Cider Apple) from Reach. So far so good.
House Morrigen, not from Reach but the Stormlands.
House Caron, not from Reach but the Stormlands.
House Varner, From Reach.
House Errol, not from Reach but the Stormlands.
House Estermont, not from Reach but the Stormlands.

Which means that, yes, claims that Renly's massive army was all from House Tyrell due to their massive superiority is all BS, a significant chunk of Renly's personal dudes, at least half going off the names* and possibly far more, were from places other than Reach in the first place. This wasn't an army on loan from Mace but Renly's own personal retinue of retinues, with a few Reach Lords following him who also turned against Reach itself.

And since this has drifted way of course let me bring us back to the original point, that armies in ASOIAF are unreasonably large and a war against a real-life European kingdom is going to be a real pain, because despite European skill, the ASOIAF armies will inevitably have a significant numbers advantage. Even the better IRL empires tended to have numbers, at best, comparable to Renly's personal dudes, much less the armies of all the major players combined. Whether House Tyrell is really more powerful than any two other houses put together or not doesn't enter into the actual point since Renly's personal dudes weren't from House Tyrell in the first place.

*Admittedly a poor way of doing it but I don't have numbers for each of those lords individually and don't think they're available.
 

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