The Monomyth/The Hero’s Journey; An absolute requirement?

[CarlManvers2019]

We all know about The Hero’s Journey, the thing that sorta details character development or about becoming more mature or learning something new at the very end

Thing is though, I’m wondering, is it an absolute requirement for every story or arc?

I mean there are only so many things a person can learn or keep on learning, hell I think a character could already be really mature before the end of a story or worse, a series

And what if a character is already aware of his/her flaws before the series or so aware of all his/her faults but consciously decides not to change?

Or what if they were already a nice yet smart and emotionally mature individual capable of balancing bravery with being reserved enough NOT to go rushing in?

And if a character has already undergone on a number of adventures, before the series or story, what necessarily makes this one different from past adventures? Or are already very old and self aware

Just so you know, I am AGAINST Flat Characters, characters without so much depth and Sues

 

[CarlManvers2019]

I disagree. I mean if there's no room for growth in some manner then the character must be a Mary Sue but even then you still have storylines in the pages of things like One Punch Man or Superman and its related media. Even Galactus gets character arcs... So yeah, in general I'd say that there is always room for a character to grow in some manner whether its in skills or power or something more nuanced like ideology or outlook or wisdom or socially/emotionally etc.

Now there is something to be said for running out of ideas, or a character being played out or becoming tiresome to read/write towards but I feel that's a problem independent of the 'Heroes Journey.' Also there are other thematic issues like obviously having a Superman style character in ASOIAF wouldn't be very conductive, so the power levels and nature of the character have to be relative to the settings you are writing towards.

What about with say, characters from Pulp Magazines who are able to use their heads

Solomon Kane didn't change much, he just became less wary of magic when it proved that it could be good, for example

And I don't think Conan changed much either, he just so happened to end up having to become a King and was applying his previous values and personality traits and intellect to being a King

Neither are perfect, both struggle and use their heads

 

[Husky_Khan]

My apologies. I misread/misremembered your question. No I don't think it's an absolute requirement for EVERY story.

I was disagreeing with a point of view that there can't be stories/characters that don't have actual character growth. I must've skimmed over your initial question and focused on the subsequent words about Mary Sue's and other explanations for why it's not necessary.

Typically I'm not big on affirming absolutes as a general rule of thumb so it was poor writing/reading on my part.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

My apologies. I misread/misremembered your question. No I don't think it's an absolute requirement for EVERY story.

Okay, you're a better reader than that ass back on Mechanics of In Flight who kept going on and on about the Hero's Journey called shikyoseinen

Still, you sure it's NOT an absolute requirement for EVERY story? To be well-written or have some emotion

Just because a character struggles and has to use his head, doesn't necessarily mean he's "human"?

Does Doomguy/Doomslayer seem human? I don't think I saw character development occur during DOOM

 

[Husky_Khan]

Okay, you're a better reader than that ass back on Mechanics of In Flight who kept going on and on about the Hero's Journey called shikyoseinen

Still, you sure it's NOT an absolute requirement for EVERY story? To be well-written or have some emotion

Just because a character struggles and has to use his head, doesn't necessarily mean he's "human"?

Does Doomguy/Doomslayer seem human? I don't think I saw character development occur during DOOM

What I mean... at its basis is no... you don't need character development in a story.

But there's always room for character development in a story.

 

[Abhorsen]

We all know about The Hero’s Journey, the thing that sorta details character development or about becoming more mature or learning something new at the very end

Thing is though, I’m wondering, is it an absolute requirement for every story or arc?

I mean there are only so many things a person can learn or keep on learning, hell I think a character could already be really mature before the end of a story or worse, a series

And what if a character is already aware of his/her flaws before the series or so aware of all his/her faults but consciously decides not to change?

Or what if they were already a nice yet smart and emotionally mature individual capable of balancing bravery with being reserved enough NOT to go rushing in?

And if a character has already undergone on a number of adventures, before the series or story, what necessarily makes this one different from past adventures? Or are already very old and self aware

Just so you know, I am AGAINST Flat Characters, characters without so much depth and Sues

The monomyth is just a catagorizing of a large number of stories, not necessarily all of them. Also, the flexibility of the framework means it can be applied more or less accurately to most stories. Even Doom falls to the monomyth: He leaves the known (Mars), enters the unknown (Hell), and returns home to Earth.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

The monomyth is just a catagorizing of a large number of stories, not necessarily all of them. Also, the flexibility of the framework means it can be applied more or less accurately to most stories. Even Doom falls to the monomyth: He leaves the known (Mars), enters the unknown (Hell), and returns home to Earth.

But does he gain any new insights or changes to his personality? Because I thought being a near-clueless person learning new stuff about oneself or modifying oneself's personality via experience and seeing stuff was the cornerstone of said monomyth

 

[Abhorsen]

But does he gain any new insights or changes to his personality? Because I thought being a near-clueless person learning new stuff about oneself or modifying oneself's personality via experience and seeing stuff was the cornerstone of said monomyth

Not really. The fundemental part of the monomyth is going from known, to unknown, to known. And prior, he was an average grunt that refused to fire on civilians, now he is doom guy, so that's sorta a change. You can really stretch the definition a lot.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Not really. The fundemental part of the monomyth is going from known, to unknown, to known. And prior, he was an average grunt that refused to fire on civilians, now he is doom guy, so that's sorta a change. You can really stretch the definition a lot.

Does it count as the "known" if "the adventure continues" and they either "go back on the road" or walk into some new mysterious abyss and screen fades to black?

 

[Abhorsen]

Does it count as the "known" if "the adventure continues" and they either "go back on the road" or walk into some new mysterious abyss and screen fades to black?

That can count as well. The second known is kinda optional as well. This framework is very rough and adaptable. Basically, if it fits enough characteristics, it works. You can have arguments about whether some stories are too tenuous to fit, but there is almost always an argument that a story does fit it.

 

[Darmani]

I disagree with the first part. And made the 2nd but did not want a fight. But if the hero journey of women or feminism is realizing their victimhood and attacking people to guiltlesdly remove limits confident none control your already inherit power?

ugh. This heart why hate it. This is like still be a princess. But a bitchy one and only supporters good. And take their inequities as cue to deconstruct any limits or unaddressed frustrations

 

[Urabrask Revealed]

"Carol's story is not for men."

And that's why it failed. Rightfully so, I want to add.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

And that's why it failed. Rightfully so, I want to add.

Because they wanted to emphasize woman rather than being human or any other likable sort of character?

I mean I am pretty sure they did female characters right by doing em like any other character before

 

[Shipmaster Sane]

We all know about The Hero’s Journey, the thing that sorta details character development or about becoming more mature or learning something new at the very end
Thing is though, I’m wondering, is it an absolute requirement for every story or arc?
I mean there are only so many things a person can learn or keep on learning, hell I think a character could already be really mature before the end of a story or worse, a series
And what if a character is already aware of his/her flaws before the series or so aware of all his/her faults but consciously decides not to change?
Or what if they were already a nice yet smart and emotionally mature individual capable of balancing bravery with being reserved enough NOT to go rushing in?
And if a character has already undergone on a number of adventures, before the series or story, what necessarily makes this one different from past adventures? Or are already very old and self aware
Just so you know, I am AGAINST Flat Characters, characters without so much depth and Sues

I'm not sure if you're understanding Monomythic structure, it's descriptive, not prescriptive.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

I'm not sure if you're understanding Monomythic structure, it's descriptive, not prescriptive.

Sorry, kinda the result of me hanging around guys like shikyoseinen on Mechanics of In Flight on FFN years back

Wouldn’t shut up about it and the “distorted” Shirou Emiya

 

[Shipmaster Sane]

Sorry, kinda the result of me hanging around guys like shikyoseinen on Mechanics of In Flight on FFN years back

Wouldn’t shut up about it and the “distorted” Shirou Emiya

It's very important to understand cultural symbology and mythic structures, you participate in it wether you want to or not. Theres an endless interplay between repetitive thematic images, but never confuse that with homogeneity.


Also Shirou Emiya is the big gay.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

It's very important to understand cultural symbology and mythic structures, you participate in it wether you want to or not. Theres an endless interplay between repetitive thematic images, but never confuse that with homogeneity.

Also Shirou Emiya is the big gay.

Okay, TBH I keep wondering how some stories can even fit with the Hero’s Journey if not much happens

Don’t say that to the guys on Mechanics of In Flight

They’re almost cultists when it comes to how great and “unique” he is as a character

Even though I’m pretty sure there are way too many MCs who will sacrifice their bodies and lives for the sake of others without too much thought or even devote themselves to sacrificing themselves for someone else

 

[King Krávoka]

I'm not sure if you're understanding Monomythic structure, it's descriptive, not prescriptive.

Argue all you want about its validity, but it's quite clear that prescriptive use of the Hero's Journey is actual garbage.

This movie is yet another forgettable high production value capeshit title, but dressed up as a remake of a disney classic. What's that? You want to actually watch a movie about a smart guy making underthought decisions with his magic skills? Tough luck, it's actually the most generic fantasy story arc dressed up as one about a relateable yet handsome nerd in the modern day who has magic powers because he has a big brain and also because he's the chosen one.
STOP
TRYING
TO
MAKE
EVERY
HERO
INTO
JESUS
*%*#. Also there's the "my audience can only understand science as tesla coils" thing. Too bad I can't ever expect a story about Nikola Tesla being a technowizard who is yet doomed to follow the course that his life took.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Argue all you want about its validity, but it's quite clear that prescriptive use of the Hero's Journey is actual garbage.

I honestly think if it's what is required to make a good story, then at times you will have to REALLY stretch the definition or do whatever you can to look and say it applies to a story even if plenty of modern day stories are longer and sorta more complicated in-terms of events than those greek myths

Nor does it apply to every single character

 

[Shipmaster Sane]

Argue all you want about its validity, but it's quite clear that prescriptive use of the Hero's Journey is actual garbage.
This movie is yet another forgettable high production value capeshit title, but dressed up as a remake of a disney classic. What's that? You want to actually watch a movie about a smart guy making underthought decisions with his magic skills? Tough luck, it's actually the most generic fantasy story arc dressed up as one about a relateable yet handsome nerd in the modern day who has magic powers because he has a big brain and also because he's the chosen one.

I would say that patterning your story crudely off of monomythic structures, or being shitty without any direction whatsoever, isn't going to make a difference.