The clash between Trads and Libertarians.

[PsihoKekec]

Libertarianism, just like communism works on the premise that people are rational, inteligent beings who are not selfish at all. As we all know that is not true at all so in communism you end up with dictatorship of ''proleteriat'', while in libertarian state you would get either dictatorship of corporations or political machinery. Power always gravitates towards consolidation, therby actual libertarianism can only be transitional phase. Except in case of very small, very connected communities (but then so can communism), but since the dawn of civilization such small communities had to work within the framework of larger society and adapt to it.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Libertarianism, just like communism works on the premise that people are rational, inteligent beings who are not selfish at all. As we all know that is not true at all so in communism you end up with dictatorship of ''proleteriat'', while in libertarian state you would get either dictatorship of corporations or political machinery. Power always gravitates towards consolidation, therby actual libertarianism can only be transitional phase. Except in case of very small, very connected communities (but then so can communism), but since the dawn of civilization such small communities had to work within the framework of larger society and adapt to it.

Basically, "anarchy" always leads to "order" because even if they manage to get things done in a very large city to country-sized level of people doing trade and building infrastructure and being aware of each others' projects

You WILL get some people getting much economic power or some businesses deciding to work together in order to beat everyone else

And on a non-economic or non-power based desire, there will be people still taking offense at people doing harmless stuff that they will say to somehow be harming them

Like some "neighborhood committee" deciding that they do NOT want a stripclub or casino to exist nearby

Also, people will still feel the need for a government, even a small one, which is in its own interest to grow in power and some private individuals will want it to grow in order to benefit them

I think Libertarianism and even Communism would work better, if people don't NEED each other that much, or while they do need to trade or work for a living, advanced technology and/or education/skills would make it so that people are more valuable and able to negotiate better

 

[Bacle]

"Give me liberty or give me death."

This is a bedrock phrase for the ideals that under pin the culture and vision of the US. I would fight to the death against both the collectivists of the far left and far right in order to preserve our Constitution.

The only real difference between the two collectivist extremes is whether they use Communist or religious justifications for thier collectivist bullshit.

I and other liberty minded people only have common cause with the far right collectivists because of how insane the far left has gotten. Also because of Trump and his wider appeal.

But when I see people thinking the ideal state for the US should be an effective theocracy, or something so close to one as to make no real difference, it pushes me closer to moving back to the left. When I see people treat porn bans, and bans on 'degenerate' behavior, as serious topics instead of the farcical jokes those ideas are, it pushes me back to the left, if only to keep them out of power.

I used to call the US GOP the 'American Taliban' for a reason. Certain sections of the religious right in the US seem like the share many fundimental tenants with those goat fuckers, and I have no doubt they would shred our Constitution and Republic to achieve their end goals, if they ever thought they had enough power to get away with it.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

But when I see people thinking the ideal state for the US should be an effective theocracy, or something so close to one as to make no real difference, it pushes me closer to moving back to the left. When I see people treat porn bans, and bans on 'degenerate' behavior, as serious topics instead of the farcical jokes those ideas are, it pushes me back to the left, if only to keep them out of power.

I used to call the US GOP the 'American Taliban' for a reason. Certain sections of the religious right in the US seem like the share many fundimental tenants with those goat fuckers, and I have no doubt they would shred our Constitution and Republic to achieve their end goals, if they ever thought they had enough power to get away with it.

I think for the Religious Right, you're forgetting that both them and the Communists sorta have a theme based around the "Community"

It's more than just free consensual economic transactions of whatever products and services, thing is they will take issue on stuff.....because you're part of a "community" and they will take issue

 

[almostinsane]

What policy differences do we have in reality? So far, it seems to be an argument of morality and philosophy. I don't see anyone advocating violating the Non-aggression Principle, for example.

 

[FriedCFour]

But when I see people thinking the ideal state for the US should be an effective theocracy, or something so close to one as to make no real difference, it pushes me closer to moving back to the left.

Virtually no one thinks it should be a theocracy.

 

[Cherico]

Virtually no one thinks it should be a theocracy.

And your part of that vast majority, but the people who want their theocracy are loud obnoxious and use the money from their prosperity gospel mega churches to be even more obnoxious.

You know the people even most of the religious right cant stand.

Because its impossible to have a group of a 100 people with out having at least one asshole.

 

[FriedCFour]

You know the people even most of the religious right cant stand.

Because its impossible to have a group of a 100 people with out having at least one asshole.

Why should one asshole turn you away from an entire party? I mean I'm sure I can find a Libertarian who argues for legal pedophilia, that doesn't mean that is representative of them and shouldn't drive people away.

 

[Scottty]

And your part of that vast majority, but the people who want their theocracy are loud obnoxious and use the money from their prosperity gospel mega churches to be even more obnoxious.
You know the people even most of the religious right cant stand.

Which in itself means they are little to be feared, in terms of political power.

 

[Cherico]

Why should one asshole turn you away from an entire party? I mean I'm sure I can find a Libertarian who argues for legal pedophilia, that doesn't mean that is representative of them and shouldn't drive people away.

Im just explaining why your getting a raw deal and that its not your fault.

Some other prick shit the bed and your the one stuck cleaning it up, its not fair at all but we really do appreciate what your doing.

The bed was starting to smell after all.