The Big Black Book of Communist Atrocities

[Deleted member 1]

We'll start with a very brief and not at all comprehensive look at the bloodthirsty exploits of Red China, not including anything during the pre-1947 insurgency and civil war period, but beginning charmingly with the millions of landowners liquidated during the late 1940s and then moving on to much worse things that, for the sake of delicate eyes, I will not re-post here -- it is easy enough to read the link (I suppose I will introduce you to a new term, very gingerly: Political Cannibalism).

Please feel free to add your own sources, as I will keep adding more as we go, so this thread can become a compendium of the crimes of Communism.

 

[Deleted member 1]

Here's an excellent source on the sheer scare and magnitude, as well as specific incidences of, communist atrocities: Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation.

 

[Chaos Marine]

Probably the two most well known:

So how many Ukrainians died in the Holodomor?

The main issue being disputed is the number of people that died from starvation - it ranges from 1.8 to 15 million people. There is one point that parties from all sides agree with: establishing the precise amount of the dead is impossible. This is conditioned by the very nature of the crime and the…

euromaidanpress.com

Great Leap Forward - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And for two other interesting reads:

100 Years. 100 Million Lives. Think Twice. | Opinion | The Harvard Crimson

After spending four years on a campus saturated with Marxist memes and jokes about communist revolutions, my classmates will graduate with the impression that communism represents a light-hearted critique of the status quo, rather than an empirically violent philosophy that destroyed millions of...

www.thecrimson.com

I Want To Live: The Diary of a Young Girl in Stalin's Russia

The discovery of a candid diary in Soviet-era archives has revealed a remarkable witness to life in Stalin's fiefdom.

www.theage.com.au

As to my opinion of communism and people who support it? Communists are never happy unless they're in a communist country and even then, they're never happy because they're either starving, in a gulag or dead.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

As to my opinion of communism and people who support it? Communists are never happy unless they're in a communist country and even then, they're never happy because they're either starving, in a gulag or dead.

Honestly as I said before on a different thread, I can sort of get into understanding why so many people defend Communism so hard alongside other Far-Left policies

Freedom From Choice For The Greater/Common Good/For Others, Is The Greatest Freedom Of All



Money? Threats of Violence? Starvation? Those aren't the best way to rule people

Also, to clarify "For Others" I mean ONLY the greater society as a whole, friends&family are second to the Greater Good, having them is too personal, too easy to sway them to something wrong just because they care more about them specifically than simply the Greater Good

There Is a sort of idealism in that, give people huge amounts of power and expect them to be "Philosopher Kings"

It's sorta why I think it'd be a wonderful idea for whoever wins the Iron Throne of the Seven Kingdoms to establish a Royal Army/Legion and NEVER allow Vassals the power to rebel or make war with one another, the ONLY ones doing security or killing bandits and pirates would be said Royal Army/Legion.

What? You think that would be too much power? Well, better in one hand or a select group of hands than allowing so many more the freedom to arm themselves. They might hurt each other, or worse rebel and destroy the order made, if bandits and pirates are a problem they only have to run away and wait for the Royal Army/Legion who'll always be there just in-time and will always win

I also blame Hollywood.

So far, I think the only ways Tyrants in fiction gain power are Military power/Violent Threats, Economic power/Wealth/Extortion/Exploitation/Blackmail and making use of fear and hatred

There's little likely chance that you'll get Tyrants who'll be using the "Common Good" as a way to make people vote for them, who will go on calling others who defy them "selfish". At most they will probably have an army of cultists(of Personality) who will have to force people at gunpoint to follow rather than simply shaming them all into compliance.

Shaming people into following you and then proceeding to "guide" them as some sort of wise moral "Philosopher king" is the most horrifyingly secure way to get power

"Real Communism Has Never Been Tried" is because no leaders and people are truly like the Qunari from Dragon Age

 

[Realm]

Notable atrocity, consistently better quality of life outcomes than capitalist nations of similar economic development

Economic development, political-economic system, and the physical quality of life - PubMed

This study compared capitalist and socialist countries in measures of the physical quality of life (PQL), taking into account the level of economic development. The World Bank was the principal source of statistical data for 123 countries (97 per cent of the world's population). PQL variables...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[almostinsane]

"Real Communism Has Never Been Tried" is because no leaders and people are truly like the Qunari from Dragon Age

And even then, the Qun is monstrously inhuman.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

And even then, the Qun is monstrously inhuman.

What was that saying by someone how people caring more about liberty than security haven’t starved before and stuff?

No offense, I dislike Communism/Socialism/Far-Left but I can see where even the crazier sorts are coming from

Freedom isn’t worth much without ability or resources, and without a system/government to consistently give it, then we’re left to chance, our own skills and efforts which may or may not pay off....and the charity of others who decide to go operate on you for free

 

[Chaos Marine]

Notable atrocity, consistently better quality of life outcomes than capitalist nations of similar economic development

Economic development, political-economic system, and the physical quality of life - PubMed

This study compared capitalist and socialist countries in measures of the physical quality of life (PQL), taking into account the level of economic development. The World Bank was the principal source of statistical data for 123 countries (97 per cent of the world's population). PQL variables...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Except it doesn't improve. Compare the relative wealth, access to services, technology, food and various other standards of life that improve for the average citizen over time in a capitalist country. In a communist country, they invariably fail, There has never been a successful communist country. Every one of them has failed.

Also, that study has an interesting phrase near the end.

In 28 of 30 comparisons between countries at similar levels of economic development, socialist countries showed more favorable PQL outcomes.

At similar levels of economic development? That's a really vague term. I could have a test to see the effects of not letting fifteen of a group of thirty people not have access to food and water and use the exact same line to compare them within the first hour or two of the experiment and then completely ignore the rest of the results when the people star having issues of thirst and hunger a few more hours later.

To put it mildly, I don't really think I could trust that result or paper. There's honestly not enough to really go on and that quantifiers makes it's finding really iffy.

To finalize my point though, there are no successful communist or socialist countries. The closest you could conceivably find is China but I'd hardly call China a country to aspire to and its more an unholy capitalist/communist hybrid.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

To finalize my point though, there are no successful communist or socialist countries. The closest you could conceivably find is China but I'd hardly call China a country to aspire to and its more an unholy capitalist/communist hybrid.

You know, I heard once that the whole use huge amounts of tax money to employ the populace in building large numbers of city buildings kinda backfired due to not having the population or guys who can afford said houses’ value

 

[PsihoKekec]

Wasn't the Black Book of Communism criticezed for severly overstating the numbers? I recall discussion from years ago that historians in former Yugoslavia can't confirm even half of it's claimed bodycount for Tito's regime.

 

[Deleted member 1]

This may be a cheeky reference to the concept, but the thread is intended solely as a compilation of sources, @PsihoKekec .

 

[Realm]

Except it doesn't improve. Compare the relative wealth, access to services, technology, food and various other standards of life that improve for the average citizen over time in a capitalist country. In a communist country, they invariably fail, There has never been a successful communist country. Every one of them has failed.

"Invariably"

Cuba showed drastic improvements in medical care, education, and poverty reduction compared to other nations while showing an income growth comparable to other latin american nations.

But of course, just saying shit without proof to show how you're correct is a lot more fun than like, actually reading isn't it?

To put it mildly, I don't really think I could trust that result or paper. There's honestly not enough to really go on and that quantifiers makes it's finding really iffy.

Cool, my research is wrong because it conflicts with your assumptions and you're not willing to look into the actual meat and potatoes to determine if it's correct or not.

I'd compare that to myself, but generally speaking I make sure to look into actual research before discounting things wholesale.

Wasn't the Black Book of Communism criticezed for severly overstating the numbers? I recall discussion from years ago that historians in former Yugoslavia can't confirm even half of it's claimed bodycount for Tito's regime.

Multiple coauthors of the book (Each chapter had a different author talking on a different topic) disassociated themselves, due to the sloppy and obviously biased scholarship shown by the editor, due to his focus on hitting 100 million rather than actually being truthful.

 

[Emperor Tippy]

This thread is about the atrocities linked to communism, not those linked to capitalism. If you want to talk about capitalist atrocities then make a thread on that topic, don't derail this one.

 

[Scottty]

More people have been mass-murdered in the name of The Revolution than of any other belief-system, ideology or religion in the history of mankind.
Communism is a war against humanity.

 

[Realm]

More people have been mass-murdered in the name of The Revolution than of any other belief-system, ideology or religion in the history of mankind.
Communism is a war against humanity.

Can I get a source on that one real quick?

 

[Scottty]

Can I get a source on that one real quick?

I don't need to cite, I can just tell you: human beings are creatures with a certain nature - they have religious beliefs, they have families, they interact with each other for mutual benefit, they are loyal to their kin, they have belief in the afterlife, they use fire, tools and weapons, they create artwork, etc etc etc.

And there is not a single aspect of that, that Communism is not in conflict with. Loyalty to your family, your tribe and nation? The Communists will denounce that as evil. Wanting to exchange goods and services with your neighbors? The Communists want to abolish that, and turn everyone into slaves of an impersonal state.
And religion? Christianity especially? Communists hate it. Why is a whole topic in itself.

Oh, you were asking about the body-count? The sources already given by other posters should answer that.

 

[Realm]

Oh, you were asking about the body-count? The sources already given by other posters should answer that.

More people have been mass-murdered in the name of The Revolution than of any other belief-system, ideology or religion in the history of mankind.

Killed people != Killed the most people.

Nice essay tho, really grinded my gears

 

[Deleted member 1]

Let's be really reasonable, here's an anti-statist libertarian who documents democide in all of its forms by left and right wing regimes. In short, unbiased, because he detests government in general and has no right-wing ideology to favour anti-communist governments.

It includes this final computation:

"In sum the communist probably have murdered something like 110,000,000, or near two-thirds of all those killed by all governments, quasi-governments, and guerrillas from 1900 to 1987. Of course, the world total itself it shocking. It is several times the 38,000,000 battle-dead that have been killed in all this century's international and domestic wars. Yet the probable number of murders by the Soviet Union alone--one communist country-- well surpasses this cost of war. And those murders of communist China almost equal it."

Two thirds of all mass death in the period of 1900 - 1987 was caused by communism and their death toll was almost three times the toll of all battlefields of the whole world during the whole of 1900 - 2000.

 

[Nitramy]

Has humanity truly outgrown its animal needs and instincts?

If yes, then there's a chance socialism can work.
If no, then socialism won't work for humanity yet.

Given that humanity still has the lingering problem of rational thinking being made a slave to animal instincts, we as a species are not ready for socialism yet.

Bits and pieces, here and there, some small policy changes here and there, those are fine. But to make an entire state based on the philosophy? That sort of thing won't work for long due to human beings' natural self-interest.

 

[Scottty]

Actually there is at least one ideology that would be even more genocidal than Communism, if allowed to have it's way. And maybe already has been.
The "Green" ideology. I've seen it argued that banning DDT caused the deaths of more people from malaria than were killed by all the totalitarian governments of the 20th century put together.

Has humanity truly outgrown its animal needs and instincts?

I think you're fooling yourself if you seriously think that the people pushing for Socialism aren't themselves motivated by "animal needs and instincts".
No, humans have not stopped being flesh-and-blood, living beings.