Philosophy Tendency Towards Authoritharianism

Opening post

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
Tendency towards authoritharianism is inherent in human nature. This is not something which can be avoided or done away through having a certain political system - it is entirely possible for a formal democracy to become highly authoritharian.

In part, it stems from fear. Fear of being hurt, of being attacked. Democracy is based on discussion of ideas, any functioning society is based on discussion of ideas, but fact is that such discussion can often be highly uncomfortable, even painful. Thus people have a natural tendency to seek to insulate themselves from pain.

But this is often taken too far. If their initial - perhaps reasonable - concerns are satisfied, many people will push further. So with time, we go from "protection from assaults on one's person and livelihood" to "protection from ideas which make loudest groups uncomfortable". Much like with Changelings from Star Trek, fear of potential danger which has become a psychosis is being translated into obsessive need to control others' behaviour, all to avoid being hurt.

As a result, it has to be actively fought. But modern Western society is built upon values such as "compassion". While not inherently bad, these values had been taken too far, thus enabling people with above-described fears, as well as people with simple tendency towards control, to translate said values into what is today often described as "political correctness". But PC culture and cancel culture are simply manifestations, small parts of general psychological problem facing the Western civilization.

This is not a new problem. "Protection from being hurt", in all its varied forms, is precisely how dictators and dictatorships historically came to be. Dukes and kings and feudal lords started out as bullies with gangs, who gave out protection from other gangs in exhange for being given a set (and thus predictable and - usually - manageable) amount of resources. In fact, the primary (or some would say, sole) purpose of the state, in any period, is to be the biggest bully on the block and use said status to protect people forming the state from other bullies - within or without it. But when state fails in this task, people will seek replacement of leadership - and if system is seen as failing in the task, this can and often (usually?) does lead to appearance of dictators.

While such a situation is nowadays often seen as aberration, it is a fact that democracy - especially formal democracy - is historically an aberration itself. Democracy is based on the presumption of people being educated, organized and well-off enough to act as their own bullies. People also have to know each other well-enough, to be culturally, linguistically and mentally similar and unified enough to come to common conclusions and common goals, which thus serve to remove the need to force consent among the populace, to self-organize well enough to protect against external threats and to be unified enough to make said self-organization a possibility in the first place. Thus democracy historically appeared only in very small communities - Greek city-states, Italian city-states, Swiss villages - which, due to virtue of geography, surrounding geopolitical situation, or both, could afford to remain independent without significantly endangering their existence, and which were homogenous enough to be capable of such self-organization.

But even in such communities, democracy was comparatively rare. Democractic process is inherently sluggish and ineffective, due to requirement of engaging large numbers of people in discussion. This same requirement also meant that democracy was geographically limited, as people had to come to consensus, and this required discussion - which is much easier at local than at regional or national level. It is thus not a mistake to see democracy as being, in large part, a function of decentralization. Fact is that more centralized societies are, for a given political system, automatically more authoritharian: they encompass larger poplace and larger geographical area, thus making discussion more difficult. They encompass on average larger number of different groups, populaces and peoples, thus making consent more difficult. It is not difficult to reach a conclusion that a particularly decentralized monarchy could, actually, be more democratic than a particularly centralized republic. In fact, it can be argued that formal democracy is actually dangerous to democratization of society itself, thus introducing the conflict between democracy as a value and democracy as a political system.

And that is what historically has been the case. Relatively culturally unified states with relatively decentralized political system were often able to achieve significant levels of democratization, be it formal or informal. Introduction of the theme system in Byzantine Empire saw local thematic armies serve as representatives of interests of provincial populace, overthrowing Emperors which ignored these interests. Decentralization of power which arose as a consequence of introduction of thematic system thus had as a direct consequence democratization of the Empire. Holy Roman Empire was even more decentralized - and while the Emperor was typically of the line of Habsburgs, he could not easily ignore the requests of towns and local communities, thus giving the Empire significant democratic character.

But in multicultural / multiethnic entities, any high-level democratization was largely impossible due to requirement of maintaining consent between different groups. While Holy Roman Empire had elements of democracy, Austrian Empire (which included Hungary and Croatia) very empathically did not. It is thus unavoidable that current processes of globalization, centralization and supranational integration will lead to loss of democracy, as ability to gain consent will significantly decrease.

Multicultural society is in fact in many ways equivalent to a multilinguistic one. Culture impacts thought processes, so people of different cultures very easily end up talking past each other. More significantly perhaps, it reduces the amount of inherent or implied consent - which is absolutely required for democratic governance. It is indeed possible to have democracy in a multicultural society - but this can only be achieved if each cultural group can be given significant autonomy in making its own decisions, thus reducing the - necessarily authoritharian - overhead to minimum while shifting majority of weight of government to the local level. This however requires said groups to be separated geographically, allowing each group to form governance at local level according to its own culture and propensities. Even then, need to mediate conflicts between the groups will often - perhaps unavoidably - give rise to an authoritharian authority above said groups which will be able to enforce its will. In other words, an empire.

This empire, as noted, need not have an actual emperor. What it will have is a highly centralized authority acting as a God, imposing top-down values on the rest of society - oftentimes by force. Whether said authority is an Emperor, a King, or a Supreme / Constitutional Court, is irrelevant. What matters is that such an authority exists. It is thus perhaps ironic - but not unexpected - that modern-day representative democracy promotes precisely such centralization to an extent much greater than seen in a typical monarchy.
 
I disagree that authoritarianism is driven so much by fear, as opposed to sincerely believing that you are right and from there deciding that since you are right, it's equally clear that the best way for the world to operate is for that rightness to be imposed on all.

Or in more colloquial terms, "You shouldn't get a say because you're wrong."

I think there's a desire for a "Philosopher King" or some group with the power to perfectly handle everybody else whom you see either as dumb or evil or both
 
I disagree that authoritarianism is driven so much by fear, as opposed to sincerely believing that you are right and from there deciding that since you are right, it's equally clear that the best way for the world to operate is for that rightness to be imposed on all.

Or in more colloquial terms, "You shouldn't get a say because you're wrong."

That is true to an extent, but I still see fear as the driving element of authoritharianism, as the sincere belief one is right does not automatically translate into trying to impose those beliefs by force (as opposed, to, say, convincing other people you are right). And keep in mind, fear can take many forms: there is intelliectual fear of being proven wrong, which I in fact directly referred to in the OP:
In part, it stems from fear. Fear of being hurt, of being attacked. Democracy is based on discussion of ideas, any functioning society is based on discussion of ideas, but fact is that such discussion can often be highly uncomfortable, even painful.
So with time, we go from "protection from assaults on one's person and livelihood" to "protection from ideas which make loudest groups uncomfortable".
 
I think there's a desire for a "Philosopher King" or some group with the power to perfectly handle everybody else whom you see either as dumb or evil or both

For all that the movie dialogue was terrible, Anakin Skywalker did a good job of expressing this exact thing:

Anakin: "We need a system where the politicians sit down, decide what's in the best interest of the people, and then do it."

Padme: "That's exactly what we do. The, the trouble is that people don't always agree."

Anakin: "Then they should be made to."

Padme: "By whom, who's going to make them?"

Anakin: "I don't know...someone."

Padme: "You?"

Anakin: "Of course not me."

Padme: "But someone?"

Anakin: "Someone wise."

Padme: "Sounds an awful lot like a dictatorship to me."

Anakin: "Well, if it works."


And for that matter, the Jedi did in fact follow a philosophy of doing what they "felt" was right and forcibly imposing it on everyone; they just did it on a mostly individual scale rather than a systematic, ideological one -- aside from the vaguely defined systematic authority that the Republic gave them, and the ideological belief that they were entitled to do this.
 
Man's default state is liberty loving, until a few muppets make such a pig's ear of the country that everyone is begging for a strong hand to fix the mess. This is what happened with Caesar and Napoleon. Corruption and authoritarianism do go hand in hand, but I wonder whether or not it is (at times) the corruption of the preceding system that drives the rise of these dictators. The Roman Republic had become so out of touch and inept, that is it any wonder the Roman people gave up on it? And in their case, their gamble was rewarded with Augustus motherfucking Caesar.
 
Its my firm belief most of humanity has always desired a "chief", a "head man", "king", "lord" to rule over them.

Not because they wish to be oppressed but because they derive security from submission.

True individualism is rare, perhaps its more common today, but most people throughout human history regardless of time or place, or any other factor-wanted authority. They wanted structures, rules, and someone to command them.

There has perhaps always been a small percentage of libertines and free spirits, whose life philosophy could be summed up as "I will do as I will"(to paraphrase Aleister Crowley), but for most of human history they were required to conform even under the threat of death, because of their fellow community wanted the enforcement of rules and structures.

For all that the movie dialogue was terrible, Anakin Skywalker did a good job of expressing this exact thing:

Anakin: "We need a system where the politicians sit down, decide what's in the best interest of the people, and then do it."

Padme: "That's exactly what we do. The, the trouble is that people don't always agree."

Anakin: "Then they should be made to."

Padme: "By whom, who's going to make them?"

Anakin: "I don't know...someone."

Padme: "You?"

Anakin: "Of course not me."

Padme: "But someone?"

Anakin: "Someone wise."

Padme: "Sounds an awful lot like a dictatorship to me."

Anakin: "Well, if it works."


And for that matter, the Jedi did in fact follow a philosophy of doing what they "felt" was right and forcibly imposing it on everyone; they just did it on a mostly individual scale rather than a systematic, ideological one -- aside from the vaguely defined systematic authority that the Republic gave them, and the ideological belief that they were entitled to do this.
Interesting fact about that, you would think Anakin being raised in slavery would be more inclined towards democracy, but in fact given he grew up in a lawless environment(Tatooine) without true leadership he wants actual leadership. That always struck me as one of the best elements of Anakin as a character, his background had a lot to do with his story.
 
Interesting fact about that, you would think Anakin being raised in slavery would be more inclined towards democracy, but in fact given he grew up in a lawless environment(Tatooine) without true leadership he wants actual leadership. That always struck me as one of the best elements of Anakin as a character, his background had a lot to do with his story.

His story was very badly written, but it had elements of that.

However, I think Anakin wanted both of these things while not wanting to acknowledge that they were often-contradictory ideals that had to be balanced against each other. Look at how much he resented the structured environment of the Jedi Order -- he wanted meaningful leadership to make others follow and comply, but he also demanded nearly absolute personal freedom for himself to individually do what he felt best.
 
Its my firm belief most of humanity has always desired a "chief", a "head man", "king", "lord" to rule over them.

I think that's almost true, but not quite. Most people are naturally followers, which is hardly a crime. Acknowledging you are not fit to rule is a demonstration of humility. I think it's more they want someone to lead them, to inspire them, than to simply be dominated.
 
They don’t necessarily event want to be inspired, they just want the protection of the head man. Who tells them what is good and what is bad, what is safe and what is dangerous, who protects them from their enemies, and ensures their children’s survival.

They don’t wish to worry, or fear. Only to be feel safe and secure.
 
They don’t necessarily event want to be inspired, they just want the protection of the head man. Who tells them what is good and what is bad, what is safe and what is dangerous, who protects them from their enemies, and ensures their children’s survival.

They don’t wish to worry, or fear. Only to be feel safe and secure.

I think these are two distinct arguments.

People wanting safety and security without having to personally carve out your own personal dominion with tooth and nail is what civilization is all about. It's not wrong or cowardly, and it's entirely different from wanting to be told what to think.
 
I think these are two distinct arguments.

People wanting safety and security without having to personally carve out your own personal dominion with tooth and nail is what civilization is all about. It's not wrong or cowardly, and it's entirely different from wanting to be told what to think.
I’d say there related. Having to think usually means you aren’t safe or secure. If you can live in comfortable bliss(depending on the time and place) without having to think due to the head man, then you’ll consider yourself happy.
 
I think these are two distinct arguments.

People wanting safety and security without having to personally carve out your own personal dominion with tooth and nail is what civilization is all about. It's not wrong or cowardly, and it's entirely different from wanting to be told what to think.

Precisely. You can't fault some Saxon farmer looking to his King to protect him from those bloodthirsty Norsemen over the horizon. Indeed, I'd argue that is the point of the State. It is there to maintain the necessary order and stability in which commerce and ironically liberty can thrive. Our modern woes seem to be a result of governments losing sight of that principle and thinking they can craft an ideal society instead of simply protecting the one that is already there.

People want protection so they can their lives in peace, not social engineering.
 
Precisely. You can't fault some Saxon farmer looking to his King to protect him from those bloodthirsty Norsemen over the horizon. Indeed, I'd argue that is the point of the State. It is there to maintain the necessary order and stability in which commerce and ironically liberty can thrive. Our modern woes seem to be a result of governments losing sight of that principle and thinking they can craft an ideal society instead of simply protecting the one that is already there.

People want protection so they can their lives in peace, not social engineering.

As a trans girl, I really don't get to live my life in peace without "social engineering" as you call it.

Also for being bisexual.

Also for being in an interracial relationship.

Also for being an American citizen.

More to the point, I would argue that the conservative desire to prevent society from changing is just as much "social engineering" as the progressive desire to push specific changes on society. I don't believe societies are innately static at all; they're dynamic equilibria just like an ecosystem, naturally evolving over time in response to a plethora of factors. Those factors include literally every single person in the society having an opinion, and making decisions based on their opinion.
 
Chiefdoms
His story was very badly written, but it had elements of that.

However, I think Anakin wanted both of these things while not wanting to acknowledge that they were often-contradictory ideals that had to be balanced against each other. Look at how much he resented the structured environment of the Jedi Order -- he wanted meaningful leadership to make others follow and comply, but he also demanded nearly absolute personal freedom for himself to individually do what he felt best.

Those requirements are not always contradictory. What you have described essentially a chiefdom, where leader does not lead because of his position, but has his position because he leads - a setup of some primitive tribes; you have person who is an acknowledged expert in the task, and everybody listens to said person not because they are forced to, but because they know that person knows best. So it is an extremely democratic setup while at the same time being monocratic. As @Lord Sovereign put it:
Most people are naturally followers, which is hardly a crime. Acknowledging you are not fit to rule is a demonstration of humility. I think it's more they want someone to lead them, to inspire them, than to simply be dominated.

Question is whether it is possible to pull off in a very complex modern society. But then again, Jedi Order can hardly be called a "society", and considering the nature of the Jedi - and the nature of Master-Padawan relationship in particular - I would argue that such inspirational leadership would have actually worked far better than structured military-style command they seem to have had.
 
As a trans girl, I really don't get to live my life in peace without "social engineering" as you call it.

Also for being bisexual.

Also for being in an interracial relationship.

Also for being an American citizen.

More to the point, I would argue that the conservative desire to prevent society from changing is just as much "social engineering" as the progressive desire to push specific changes on society. I don't believe societies are innately static at all; they're dynamic equilibria just like an ecosystem, naturally evolving over time in response to a plethora of factors. Those factors include literally every single person in the society having an opinion, and making decisions based on their opinion.

Ok as some one who worked as a historian for years (the pay sucks.)

Your experience is not new, it is not novel.

There were bi sexuals/ homosexuals as long as humanity has existed there have been people attracted to the same sex. This has gone from aproved of to disaproved of in an ebb and flow through out time.

Transpeople like wise have existed through out time and culture, there is an entire caste of them in india that has existed for centuries. I personally studied a the diary of a successful Transmadem who was very invested in the community during the 1860s and retired and got married to a man and was respected by the small town she lived in.

So even in back during 1800s during the age of jim crow it was possible for transpeople to carve out a life for themselves. There is nothing new under the sun.

If you feel lost and umorred in society then maybe what you need to do is read up on the history of people who have come before you, and have had experiences like you.
 
One of the major paradoxes of a Traditionalist or Conservative society is the problem of the circle in the square.

Homosexuals and Transgenders, in certain ages and times those who were not a certain ethnicity, women who were sexually "loose".

Those who didn't believe in the official religion, and so on.

A healthy society is religious, exclusionary, essentialist, and inegalitarian.

The fundamental problem, the greatest problem I think in this matter-is certain folks will get shafted. Inevitably. Non Christians in a christian society, transgenders in a society where gender roles are maintained, blacks in a White society, etc...

These are what Critical Theory considers the "marginalized", "excluded", and so on.

Unfortunately, and this may come as harsh, but those who are by their nature or behavior unable to meet the normative standard must either shut up or leave.

As opposed to our current crazy society, where everyone who feels they got excluded from the club is sticking their middle finger in our eyes, and going on rampages of vengeance.

The marginalized and oppressed of any given society, if said society is to remain healthy, must remain marginalized.

Exclusion is essential for a functioning society. Some people just have to be told, "you are not valued or welcome here-you can remain and keep your head down, or you can leave".

^^^^

That above puts against me the liberal-left consensus ideology that has ravaged western society at least for the past fifty years. And would make me a fascist or worse in their eyes.
 
The problem with that Invictus is that there is no where for them to go.

Personally I think that there is a solution the circle can be squared but not with our current technology. The solution is space, it is to create massive oneil cylinders, it is to settle new worlds and astroids. You don't like a community leave and create your own, a endless frontier is out there and solves the problem quite nicely.

Unfortantly the tech isn't there yet and we all have to find a way to live with each other with out murdering each other. We live in a very bad time after every thing on earth has been claimed and discovered but before the endless frontier of space becomes a thing. Over all its a shitty time.
 
Yep a globalized world where everyone can press their grievance, is the problem. The world is burning due to people locked in together who dislike one another and feel so and so stepped on them sometime in the last oh...500 years.

Its not stable and will require either an outlet like space, a total reset(collapse), or a globally enforced iron fist.
 

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