Swapping the Gender or Race of a Character in Fiction

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Have you guys checked out Gotham High? Holy God, what a shitshow that absolutely shits all over everything about Batman. And it does so using Race swapping and I'm sure Gender swapping at some point. But this is what Gender and Race swapping gets you. Most of its crap with maybe one or two decent examples.

To be fair, Gotham high was designed to deliberately offend comic book readers and fans. It isn't so much a genderswap shitstorm (And it is that, you're absolutely right), so much as it is the writing of a petulant twat who's interested in "punishing" Comic fans.

First, I think it's probably a good thing to show an abusive lesbian relationship, because abuse in the LGBT is very high (higher than straight couples).

Pedophilia as well, although that's more prevalent among transgender people.

The overwhelming majority of which are either victims of, perpetrators of, or both at once.

In addition, on broadcast TV, about 6.4% of characters were LGBT, which seems about in line with the ~5%ish figure I use as a rule of thumb.

It's 2.3% anything higher than that is indoctrination based identification and people doing it to be trendy.

 

[Abhorsen]

Pedophilia as well, although that's more prevalent among transgender people.

The overwhelming majority of which are either victims of, perpetrators of, or both at once.

Honestly, I'm skeptical of the pedophile numbers. My guess is that a lot of straight men are just pretending to be trans to exploit children, and aren't actually trans themselves.

It's 2.3% anything higher than that is indoctrination based identification and people doing it to be trendy.

Eh, there's a number of studies on this that get a number of different results. Kinsey's study, which happened in the 40's and 50's, found around 10% of both sexes were bi or gayer. Even when the data was cleaned in the 70s by Gebhard to remove prison population, the numbers held. There are a number of other studies that find similar levels of people reporting having gay experiences from the 90s. So no, that isn't just people being trendy.

Estimates nowadays of how many people identify as gay range from 1.2% to 6.8%. Here's a link to a bunch of studies, summarized on wikipedia: LGBT demographics of the United States - Wikipedia

 

[Tiamat]

A lot said here that I could agree with, not sure what else I could add to this conversation, except my two cents:

Swapping genders and race? Again, really depends on how it's done, but my first question is always, WHY? Why, is there a particular need for this besides the usual risk of just pandering to a group? That's why I think ironically the SJW's have poisoned the damn well so much, so that if someone for any reason other than NOT pandering to a group does decide to do a race or gender swap, they'll get accused of said pandering anyway.

My personal Golden Rule: PUT THE STORY AND CHARACTERS FIRST. Put the gender and race crap to the very back of your damn brain when writing a story, and if someone happens to be black, Asian, gay, bi, or whatever, oh hey great, but it should hardly be noticeable as it's the CHARACTER that shines through first and foremost. I dare anyone to look at a movie or book that's made now where they force race or sexuality or gender swaps on characters, and I will bet you'll find the movie or book is suffering for it because it's choking the muse, the story suffers for it at the cost of ridiculous politics. It happened with state-sanctioned "art" under the regimes like the Nazis and Soviets, though admittedly there were exceptions here and there.

Speaking of sexuality...I never really went for the sexuality angle swap on Willow, that felt forced and silly and meant more to appeal to the "controversy sells" crowd (Lesbian-Gay-Bisexual was in a different playing field in the 90s). Personally, I would have went for a bisexual "coming out" with Willow that would have made more sense, plus it would have led to a very interesting relationship with Willow and Xander if Willow also decided to pursue a female romance with someone as well...how scandalous. 😉 And I'm sure Xander being the horndog as he was would not at all have disapproved whatsoever especially if said "other woman" was also bisexual and was also interested in Xander, and this is an idea I hope to pursue in a BTVS fanfic, but that's for a different thread..."cough".

As for what Spartan303 mentioned, Gotham High? I thought that was just a parody comic...until I saw a few panels myself. Holy crap, that's just....no, NO NO NO NO NO NO NO. I'm not as avid or fanatic a comic reader as some, but that's just godawful. 🤢🤮

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Speaking of race-swapping, in-hindsight they did that with earlier Game of Thrones episodes

Salladhor Saan and Xaro Xhoan Daxos are NOT Summer Islanders, they're Valyrian/Lyesene and Qaathi respectively

Then again, I think part of it involved a cheapness to avoid actually making actors accurate to the books and because they probably didn’t care that much about accuracy even then

Couldn't even get redheads for Robb, Bran & Edmure or make Dany & Viserys violet-eyed

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Honestly, I'm skeptical of the pedophile numbers. My guess is that a lot of straight men are just pretending to be trans to exploit children, and aren't actually trans themselves.

That seems like wishful thinking. There's a grooming problem in the entire LGB community, the Trans community is even more insular, aggressive and litigious. And when you see groups like the Mermaids and the literal atrocities they get up too (Re sneaking kids to countries that have loose laws or easily bribed officials to transition 13 year olds). I wouldn't be surprised if its alarmingly higher than the baseline.

As for what Spartan303 mentioned, Gotham High? I thought that was just a parody comic...until I saw a few panels myself. Holy crap, that's just....no, NO NO NO NO NO NO NO. I'm not as avid or fanatic a comic reader as some, but that's just godawful. 🤢🤮

It's self insert fanfiction deliberately designed to punish and offend a hyper racist demographic that exists solely in the authors twisted mind.

It may as well be parody. I mean it's not as bad as the Pervert, which has trans snoopy getting pile driven up the rear by Clifford the Big Red Dog (And Tumblr tier idiots say this book as comparable to Maus ), illustrated and written by a former child prostitute and drug addict turned transactivist who claimed it was an autobiography, who attempted to bribe a guidance counselor to get the 8 year old daughter of one of his critics to question her gender in retaliation for his excoriating that dirtbags shitty porn rag.

But it's still pretty egregious. but I don't know if it technically counts as a Genderswap deal..Mainly due to the authors intent.

It's sort of more troll fanfiction or a sad attempt at a lefty shitpost?

The guy who writes for The High Republic, Older...taking the plot of YYH and making Yusuke a Puerto Rican from Nahlens and Toguro a good ol'boy swamp billy who wants to kill him because he's racist though?

Yeah that shits cheap race swapping...also plagiarism.

Speaking of race-swapping, in-hindsight they did that with earlier Game of Thrones episodes

Salladhor Saan and Xaro Xhoan Daxos are NOT Summer Islanders, they're Valyrian/Lyesene and Qaathi respectively

Then again, I think part of it involved a cheapness to avoid actually making actors accurate to the books and because they probably didn’t care that much about accuracy even then

Couldn't even get redheads for Robb, Bran & Edmure or make Dany & Viserys violet-eyed

That's because DnD allegedly confused the Stepstones for Sothoryos.

Doesn't explain Xaro though.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

By the way to be clear @Spartan303 ....I'm not defending Gotham High...I just think its more of a really childish trantrummy fanfic than a genuine case of this. Though you'd probably make the counter argument that it's one in the same and you'd probably be right.

Also I'd post images from that Comic, because that shit has to be seen to be believed. But it's honestly disgusting and I actually liked Clifford and Snoopy as a kid..so.. 😢

 

[CarlManvers2019]

That's because DnD allegedly confused the Stepstones for Sothoryos.

Doesn't explain Xaro though.

You know, it’s kinda ironic, but I think Xaro’s more-or-less gay and they made him straight in the show

 

[Tiamat]

By the way to be clear @Spartan303 ....I'm not defending Gotham High...I just think its more of a really childish trantrummy fanfic than a genuine case of this. Though you'd probably make the counter argument that it's one in the same and you'd probably be right.

Also I'd post images from that Comic. Because that shit has to be seen to be believed. But it's honestly disgusting and I actually liked Clifford and Snoopy as a kid..so.. 😢

Clifford...I wasn't a fan, but why go after him, just why? Sheesh.

I'm getting a serious vibe among some of these comics that I have seen and read...and that a lot of the comic writers nowadays, the bad ones anyway have some really serious "small man complex" and schizophrenic issues going on. They just can't resist the constant need to tear down and humiliate "fill in the blank" character for whatever warped and twisted reason. Hell, my biggest gripe with Garth Ennis, (and he is a very talented writer, btw) is his constant obsession with his hatred of superheroes...I'm not a big superhero guy myself, but he seems to have a unilateral grudge he can't let go and it shows, and it hinders him from being a great writer. It gets worse in some of his comics as he donates a whole damn issue spieling on some particular POV of his and not much else. That and his gah-gah love affair for how badass and awesome the Soviets were during WW2...."cough". Though for the record, seeing a bunch of self-appointed "superhero" metahumans get magnificently fragged by the U.S. military near the end of the run of "The Boys" was a hoot in itself.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

@Tiamat
Honestly, I hate “deconstructions” that like to add a bunch of weird shit that aren’t much as to how things’d logically work if they existed IRL

Like, why make every superhero a fake corporate sponsored douchebag?

How is it that there’s zero funding to actually making them avoid increasing Vought-American’s bills via actual training?

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

You know, it’s kinda ironic, but I think Xaro’s more-or-less gay and they made him straight in the show

I remember his marriage requests to Dany were nakedly about opportunism and he had no real thirst for her at all.

Clifford...I wasn't a fan, but why go after him, just why? Sheesh.

"Because I'm a furry and I wanted to take advantage of the fact that most parents just see cute shit and buy it for their kids without thought. Maybe they'll start to awaken" - Perez's own words.

IE dude wanted to troon kids and be as offensive as possible while doing it. Dark Horse lost its mind publishing this nonsense.

I'm getting a serious vibe among some of these comics that I have seen and read...and that a lot of the comic writers nowadays, the bad ones anyway have some really serious "small man complex" and schizophrenic issues going on. They just can't resist the constant need to tear down and humiliate "fill in the blank" character for whatever warped and twisted reason. Hell, my biggest gripe with Garth Ennis, (and he is a very talented writer, btw) is his constant obsession with his hatred of superheroes...I'm not a big superhero guy myself, but he seems to have a unilateral grudge he can't let go and it shows, and it hinders him from being a great writer. It gets worse in some of his comics as he donates a whole damn issue spieling on some particular POV of his and not much else. That and his gah-gah love affair for how badass and awesome the Soviets were during WW2...."cough". Though for the record, seeing a bunch of self-appointed "superhero" metahumans get magnificently fragged by the U.S. military near the end of the run of "The Boys" was a hoot in itself.

What's hilarious is that he's apparently a huge Superman fan, hating heroes but idolizing the biggest example of one. Ennis being a fanboy of the USSR is a new one, didn't know that but doesn't surprise me.

In the Crossed Comic he and Alan Moore wrote, Christianity doesn't survive but Islam becomes the dominant religion in the wasteland for some inexplicable reason.

 

[Darth Robbhi]

A lot said here that I could agree with, not sure what else I could add to this conversation, except my two cents:

Swapping genders and race? Again, really depends on how it's done, but my first question is always, WHY? Why, is there a particular need for this besides the usual risk of just pandering to a group? That's why I think ironically the SJW's have poisoned the damn well so much, so that if someone for any reason other than NOT pandering to a group does decide to do a race or gender swap, they'll get accused of said pandering anyway.

My personal Golden Rule: PUT THE STORY AND CHARACTERS FIRST. Put the gender and race crap to the very back of your damn brain when writing a story, and if someone happens to be black, Asian, gay, bi, or whatever, oh hey great, but it should hardly be noticeable as it's the CHARACTER that shines through first and foremost. I dare anyone to look at a movie or book that's made now where they force race or sexuality or gender swaps on characters, and I will bet you'll find the movie or book is suffering for it because it's choking the muse, the story suffers for it at the cost of ridiculous politics. It happened with state-sanctioned "art" under the regimes like the Nazis and Soviets, though admittedly there were exceptions here and there.

It’s a thin line to walk, because there are two points to a gender/race swap:

1) The actors you have don’t match the characters as written
2) You want to explore race, gender and sexual issues.

1 is easy to do, and most people won’t care unless you clearly couldn’t be bothered to widen your talent pool (see Emma Stone). Though that is getting iffy as a vocal minority forgets that the entire purpose of acting is to convince the audience you are something you are not.

I disagree that a black woman could not play George Washington damn well. I’d love to see CCH Pounder play George Washington, especially at Monmouth Court House. To some extent, we see that in Hamilton. Give a good actor or actress good material, and they will suspend our disbelief for the duration they stride the stage. We see that with Shakespeare all the time.

2 is a lot harder. You can do it (as with Bobby Drake), but it’s dangerous. Mostly because of exactly what you say - you can easily descend into cardboard cutout land. Using our female black Batman example, far too many people would be tempted to delve into “she’s not accepted by the rich” and not “she’s not accepted by the poor” or even “why am I busting my ass every day for the ungrateful who will not stop making bad decisions?” One is well-trod but obsolete ground, the other incredibly risky, because it tempts the wrath of the Twittersti. Though we are beginning to see shows take that route.

 

[Abhorsen]

That seems like wishful thinking. There's a grooming problem in the entire LGB community, the Trans community is even more insular, aggressive and litigious. And when you see groups like the Mermaids and the literal atrocities they get up too (Re sneaking kids to countries that have loose laws or easily bribed officials to transition 13 year olds). I wouldn't be surprised if its alarmingly higher than the baseline.

Given that somehow 2/50 men in UK prisons suddenly became trans, and the number of transtrenders, I'm pretty confident most of these sudden converts aren't.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

@The Immortal Watch Dog
I think guys like Garth Ennis and Alan Moore also have a variant of “Chuunibyou Syndrome”

Wherein they all imagine themselves as being a bunch of "rebels" who are fighting "The Establishment"

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ted-kaczynski-the-system-s-neatest-trick

Doing stuff like gender & race swapping are ironically approved and exalted by "The Establishment"

Given that somehow 2/50 men in UK prisons suddenly became trans, and the number of transtrenders, I'm pretty confident most of these sudden converts aren't.

Even this is part of the Neatest Trick

These guys probably would conform & anti-conform solely because they feel a need to be the same/different instead of actually liking something or actually having had actual grievances

Any altruism they got is messed over with the propaganda they consume, so they will see themselves as saints anyhow

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Given that somehow 2/50 men in UK prisons suddenly became trans, and the number of transtrenders, I'm pretty confident most of these sudden converts aren't.

Explain the sheer amount of people who detransition who say they were pushed into it and molested by other trans people or adults then? Or the amount of transgender teens who go on to become pedophiles?

@The Immortal Watch Dog
I think guys like Garth Ennis and Alan Moore also have a variant of “Chuunibyou Syndrome”

Wherein they all imagine themselves as being a bunch of "rebels" who are fighting "The Establishment"

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ted-kaczynski-the-system-s-neatest-trick

Doing stuff like gender & race swapping are ironically approved and exalted by "The Establishment"

I'm fairly certain that's a syndrome that defines the entirety of the left.

Become the man

Still fight against the man not realizing you are the man.

Everyone else gradually gets tired of your shit and it culminates in everyone kicking your face in down the line.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Everyone else gradually gets tired of your shit and it culminates in everyone kicking your face in down the line.

Problem is, again they control the majority of the entertainment media & academics

And even rule big corporations

Gotta decentralize as much as possible or that kicking them in the face is at best a temporary thing, also actually gotta REALLY learn history in-detail, including current events that guys like CNN won't cover because of how it reminds people of their craziness



Thank God for them showing this on YouTube

Show the world your idea of "progress" with all this being in the end about being a new "token minority"

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Problem is, again they control the majority of the entertainment media & academics

And even rule big corporations

How's that going for them though?

 

[CarlManvers2019]

How's that going for them though?

Strong control and influence.....gonna take a long while for them to die out

 

[Abhorsen]

Explain the sheer amount of people who detransition who say they were pushed into it and molested by other trans people or adults then? Or the amount of transgender teens who go on to become pedophiles?

Those kinda explain themselves. Probably not actually trans in both cases.

BTW, please cite a source on trans people being pedos.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Those kinda explain themselves. Probably not actually trans in both cases.

BTW, please cite a source on trans people being pedos.

Its totally not trans! Reee!

Yeah okay dude

 

[Abhorsen]

Its totally not trans! Reee!

Yeah okay dude

A person who detransitions is publically saying I was wrong about being trans. That's not really Reee.

And given that many people are transtrending, and not even pretending to half way physically transition, that means that they probably aren't. Shockingly, you need to do a little more than just claim 'trans' to be trans.