Stormcloak's or the Mede Empire? (The Elder Scrolls Skyrim)

Erwin_Pommel

Well-known member
Basically title. Been playing Skyrim a bit recently and as a result got into the usual Stormcloak vs Medeian discussion with my brother whenever I get near anything Civil War related quest wise. Been through some SB threads on the topic but became slightly curious if the site's political disposition had any bearing on the dominant Yes. Which is the Medeian Empire.

Personally I am pro-Stormcloak but I am curious to see what you guys are if you are interested in providing input. Also, I have no idea if I made this thread in the right area.

I am also aware of the "This Again!?" meme that seems to follow this topic and would like it if people kept it to a minimum or just have it be a part of a post rather than the bulk.
 

Arlos

Sad Monarchist
Not gonna lie, I dislike both and am slightly miffed we can’t eventually become a third way to the end of the conflict.
On principle, I side with the Empire, since I believe Humans need to stick together in order to kick the Thalmor teeth in.
However, the Empire is way too subservient to said Thalmor in practice, so that make me lean Stormcloak.
Unfortunately, I hate all Stormcloak leadership and think a civil war is pretty dumb considering the continental situation, even if they win, they’ll be weakened enough that the damned pointy ears could swoop right in.

Basically, I just want to beat up Thalmor and find myself frustrated because of this. :p
 

Erwin_Pommel

Well-known member
Not gonna lie, I dislike both and am slightly miffed we can’t eventually become a third way to the end of the conflict.
Fair enough.

On principle, I side with the Empire, since I believe Humans need to stick together in order to kick the Thalmor teeth in.
Even though the Empire sold out Hammerfell which is a human-dominated province/country?

However, the Empire is way too subservient to said Thalmor in practice, so that make me lean Stormcloak.
Fair enough.

Unfortunately, I hate all Stormcloak leadership and think a civil war is pretty dumb considering the continental situation
Understandable, I know a few follow Legate Rikke's mindset of "our best chance is a larger pool of unified resources to pull from."

even if they win, they’ll be weakened enough that the damned pointy ears could swoop right in.
I will be honest. I never understood this point. There exists only 5 main roads into Skyrim, one through Cyrodill, two through Morrowind, and one for High Rock and Hammerfell. The Empire isn't going to let Thalmor in regardless just to invade Skyrim bar any weird plan that involves trapping them I guess? Morrowind is too hostile geographically to support an invasion due to the recent Argonian-Dunmer wars and Red Mountain erupting and the Dominion was just recently pushed out of Hammerfell by the natives. Leaving only their navy as an option, problem is, they have to sail around half a continent which will devastate their supply lines, go past one openly hostile state and another which is part of one gearing up for round 2 supposedly. Top that all off with the violent Sea of Ghosts and much better supply line of even a fleet of seized merchant ships and you got a Battle of Britain starring the RAF and Luftwaffe. It strikes me that any invasion of Skyrim would go horribly unless the country was practically razed during the Civil War, which it isn't/wasn't.

Though if that point refers to the Empire getting attacked then fair enough I suppose, but even then I doubt somewhat as the Empire just went through a France WW1 scenario and unless the pointy-ears bring panzers through the Valenwood then they'll just hit a Roman-themed Maginot Line.
 

Christi

Well-known member
Empire.
People complain about how the first war ended but in real life that’s how it would end. You don’t fight to the end when you don’t have saves and it’s real people dying. Taking a break to strengthen yourself and your forces is smart even if you lose some land.

The Stormcloak leadership is dumb.
The whole civil war was just because Ulfric wanted to be king. If he really was all about a free skyrim he would have pressed the High King for independence. He instead with a duel and almost got caught too.
It’s also a fairly racist movement. I’m not down with that. T
The Empire brings peace, and security.
 

Guncannon

Pessimistic Pilot
I like Ulfric's backstory despite his flaws, and can sympathize in that that Thalmor basically made him a unwittingly pseudo-sleeper cell. But he scraped the bottom of the barrel when it came to supporters. Most don't have a reason other than "Skyrim is for the Nords" and the hilarious belief that Skyrim can take on the Thalmor on their own.

Mede Empire is a shadow of what the Septim Dynasty was, but that doesn't change the fact once they actually put in effort (sending Tullius), Ulfric was captured and the rebellion effectively over before Alduin appeared. They have a lot better handle on things than Ulfric can hope for after the latter straight up murdered the High King instead of trying to be diplomatic.

I'm pretty sure Stormcloak vs Imperial doesn't cross over with real life political beliefs as much as you expect it. It's more "casual Skyrim player/new to TES" vs "longstanding TES fan" where I've seen the Stormcloak/Empire divide.
 

Erwin_Pommel

Well-known member
Thalmor basically made him a unwittingly pseudo-sleeper cell.
Except he isn't. His civil war benefits them yes as it drains the Empire's manpower but he is by no means a sleeper cell by any stretch. He is little more than an asset because his goals weaken the Dominion's main opponent.

But he scraped the bottom of the barrel when it came to supporters.
A vast amount of Great War veterans is bottom of the barrel? You are full of it on this point.

No excuse me, it is obvious the only vets they have are Galmar and Ulfric himself. Silly me.\s

Most don't have a reason other than "Skyrim is for the Nords"
Let us just ignore the 20 or so years of Thalmor inquisition and death squads. Their main faith being forced around to the whims of a cowardly empire. But sure, they have no other reason.

and the hilarious belief that Skyrim can take on the Thalmor on their own.
But they don't believe that, they believe they can keep the Thalmor out of Skyrim on their own without the Empire. Of which they can as Hammerfell very clearly showed when they got the Dominion out of their lands after the Empire gave them up like the traitorous cowards they are.

Mede Empire is a shadow of what the Septim Dynasty was, but that doesn't change the fact once they actually put in effort (sending Tullius),
A single legion that barely changes the field of battle beyond a one-off operation? Not much of a plus.

They have a lot better handle on things than Ulfric can hope
Sure they do, it is why they failed to keep a grip on their entire southern border, gave up Hammerfell and stood aside as foreign death squads roamed their lands.

latter straight up murdered the High King instead of trying to be diplomatic.
Except it wasn't a murder? It was a very clearly legal duel, a duel which the former High King accepted. The only people who push it as a murder are the majority non-native population of Skyrim. Which is rather telling... The General's inability to even remember the correct name of the Nordic nobility is damning on their ignorance.

I'm pretty sure Stormcloak vs Imperial doesn't cross over with real life political beliefs as much as you expect it
Given how often people pull the baseless race card, I have to disagree. There is a very clear connection to IRL politics when these very same people push the rubbish it is whitey keeping the Detroit populace down. But that is off-topic so this is all I am saying on the topic.

It's more "casual Skyrim player/new to TES" vs "longstanding TES fan" where I've seen the Stormcloak/Empire divide.
Yeah, that is why my opinion of the Stormcloak's had not changed in spite of me playing and enjoying Oblivion more and going through, to quote/paraphrase another user, "the journey which sees the Nerevar become the leader of the Dunmer, and well, Ulfric, those are -my- people you have living in a slum!"


The Empire brings peace, and security.
You are full of shit, mate. The Empire didn't lose land, it gave up land, it bent over backwards to support an invader who wants to erase their cultural heritage and impose their arrogance over them. It is laughable to suggest they bring peace and security when their cowardice is why a civil war is going on to begin with.
 

Shipmaster Sane

You have been weighed
Empire.
People complain about how the first war ended but in real life that’s how it would end. You don’t fight to the end when you don’t have saves and it’s real people dying. Taking a break to strengthen yourself and your forces is smart even if you lose some land.
The Empire ceased to exist. When foreign soldiers can march unchecked through your lands and attack your citizens, and you allow this, when foreign powers can dictate to you what gods you can worship, you are not a state.
 

Val the Moofia Boss

Well-known member
I always felt like the Stormcloaks were the best of the two. They had the best motivations, as well as having the best prospects for the future.

In the game, when you first enter Solitude, you see Uncle Rogvir being executed by the Imperials, because he was the doorkeeper who let Ulfric escape. And Rogvir's niece is crying out for him. It feels like this is your hero moment, where you walk up onto the gallows and free Rogvir and save him from the Imperials and his niece will live happily ever after.

Whereas when you walk into Windhelm, you don't get anywhere near a compelling scene for the Imperials. At best, it's a handful of people being jerks to the Dark Elves in the slums, not people getting their heads chopped off for doing what they believed in. I never really got the "Stormcloaks are evil because they are racist!" idea, because we see only a handful of Stormcloak NPCs who are racists. That's not really indicative of the culture as a whole. One can advocate for the Stormcloak cause and also try to improve the situation of the Dark Elves too.

As for the long term, I felt that the Stormcloaks had the best prospects for the future. I was under the impression that the Empire was crumbling. It's glory days were long since past and they are stretched thin. Their provinces are rebelling. It's not Rome anymore. It's the last days of the Byzantine empire and nothing is going to save it. If you fight for the Imperials, you're merely dragging this out. Whereas if you join the Stormcloaks, the situation can stabilize more quickly, and a united Skyrim can team up with Hammerfell and other provinces to kick the Thalmor if they come back. With the Imperials kicked out of Skyrim, I'd imagine that they would focus on rebuilding Cryodill, and could eventually join the alliance against the Thalmor too.

I guess I'm also more sympathetic to Skyrim being ruled over by locals. Ulfric came across as very caring of his men, with the deaths of everyone who gave their lives for his cause weighing heavily on him. Whereas General Tullius didn't really seem to care about the people of Skyrim. He was here for years and didn't really bother trying to learn their customs or values.
 

Shipmaster Sane

You have been weighed
It doesnt help that the Stormcloaks come off as retarded, but the "empire" are absolute cucks and their state is simply and flatly a failed one. Your choices in the game suck ass as far as the political conflict goes but the idiots are in the barest most technical sense a better and more legitimate option.
 

Hlaalu Agent

Nerevar going to let you down
Founder
@Val the Moofia Boss He committed an act of treason, that rightfully gets you executed. It is not heroic to save someone rightly condemned to death. So let me correct you, you get a villain moment, because letting a condemned criminal escape his rightful punishment is what a villain did. He let them man who murdered his sovereign go, he deserves execution.

And no, there isn't going to be an alliance against the Thalmor. With the loss of Skyrim the Empire is going to be even weaker and lose what little holdings it has left. Then everyone can be picked off piecemeal by the Thalmor. With the recent war, the Empire will be hostile to Skyrim, and will want nothing to do with it. And the thing is, your statements on the Empire shows that you know nothing about the lore. There have been multiple empires and it has come back from worse. The Septim Empire was about to make a come back from being crippled by intentional mismanagement by a usurper, internal war, various shenanigans by their cronies of the usurper, and only collapsed to be succeeded by the Mede Empire by an invasion from Hell. If your metaphor holds, then the Stormcloaks are pretty much the supposed allies that helped destroy the Byzantine Empire, because they had a good chance of coming back until they were knifed in the back by the Venetians.

And Skyrim is ruled by the locals under the Empire. That is how they traditionally do things And on the same issue, what about Ulfric's actions in the Reach? Don't the locals deserve to rule themselves? Because by all accounts the Reachmen were plenty urbane when they seized power, only devolving into madmen after they got brutally suppressed.

If you look at how they do things in the lore, it is pretty much implied that the locals rule themselves as vassals to the empire and an Imperial Administrator runs the local imperial administration. So you get to rule yourself and get the benefits of being part of the empire. While with the stormcloaks, you lose your benefits- good luck on not being tarrifed to hell by the empire and paying exorbitant taxes on imports.

And Ulfric doesn't care for his men at all. Tullius does, he might be gruff, but he actually grows to appreciate Skyrim-which you conveniently leave out. Torygg who has no reason to lie, outright tells us the true nature of the man. Though, his actions towards Balgruuf should be evidence enough.

The Empire is the best bet, because it always has been the best bet for Tamriel. When united under an Empire, it is always at its most stable and prosperous and can best provision for the defense against the myriad of external threats the continent faces including, but not limited to, vampiric snakemen (maybe), snow demons, pirate sea elves ruled by an immoral god emperor, necromantic battle toads who once nearly exterminated all life on the continent with a magic plague and had to be defeated by their continent being sunk beneath the ocean and spoiler they are still alive, demonic beings, assorted godly beings with an axe to grind, meteors that might actually be demigods, a giant stompy robot negating everything, a normally "harmless" madgod having a sudden fancy, the byzantine politics of godly beings, the possibility that an ancient squidman empire still exists and will return to overthrow the surface world in the name of the god of rape, return of inscrutible fedora elves, etc, and then there are the internal threats both past and present that exist including again, but not limited to, a betrayed dead but dreaming god that wants to subsume everything into himself, an insanely powerful necromancer with his own personal cult that can literally strip the soul from your body and might also be a god or something, Elf Nazis, sapient possibly hiveminded trees that literally worship Kaos and may have been behind another near end time causing disease, an evil necromancer queen, breton court politics, the remnants of her supporters, her returning as something more than human, internecine strife, an impostor backed by a demon god, elf hippies turning into shoggoths, about a billion insane cults, barbarian pariah elf raids, breton court politics, the secret supporters of the previously mentioned usurpers, essentially the English cosplaying as ancient celts and are barbarians, an evil cult that worships the same demon god, imperial court politics, dunmer court politics, a super volcano exploding (not all threats need military protection), time losing the plot (ditto), potential return of the dark eldar lite, and so on.

And then there are all the trade, infrastructure, cultural benefits and the like having a united empire brings. Would you rather get brutally murdered because you accidentally stole a cup, or just be fined some paltry amount?


I think this sums up the stormcloaks,



tl;dr I am largely saying supporting the Stormcloaks is an idiotic idea, because the Empire is always a net good, even when it was at its worst. Leaving it is dumb, especially when you are splitting the Empire when it faces a dire threat- that might literally want to end the world. Also Ulfric literally played into the Thalmor's hands on Talos worship, he made it an issue when previously the Empire could pretend nothing was happening and back-door ignore the concordiat.
 

CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
@Hlaalu Agent
There’s also the fact that they’re NOT catipulating to the Aldmeri Dominion that much and are planning a future war

Altmer have the problem in that they have fertility problems and take about the same 20 years to mature, whereas the races of Man reproduce fast and their Bosmeri and Khajiiti “allies” aren’t really treated as equals or are members of the shown Thalmor or their soldiers and the like

The Aldmeri Dominion are playing a long game due to said relatively low military power
 

Hlaalu Agent

Nerevar going to let you down
Founder
Thank you @CarlManvers2019 I forgot that one. Yes, there is also the fact that the Empire is planning to go for round 2 and the Emperor may or may not have put a hit on himself as to make himself a martyr and also put a better emperor on the throne, all the while rubbing out a potential liability...
 

CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
Thank you @CarlManvers2019 I forgot that one. Yes, there is also the fact that the Empire is planning to go for round 2 and the Emperor may or may not have put a hit on himself as to make himself a martyr and also put a better emperor on the throne, all the while rubbing out a potential liability...

What we see in game is also only a fraction or not the true power of the Imperial Legions too

I recall that they were also not wanting to kidnap or kill Titus Mede because that could result in the hammer coming down on them
 

Shipmaster Sane

You have been weighed
The empire is allowing foreign troops to march through it's lands, and not just it's border lands, from one end to another, they allow them to conduct military operations, war even, straight across the length of their empire, against their own lands, their own citizens, they allow them to dictate religious policy, or policy period. That is definitionally a failed state. The Empire is a Thalmor state with collaborators from it's old government to keep the peace.

But I suppose WW2 france was just "biding its time".
 

Hlaalu Agent

Nerevar going to let you down
Founder
The empire is allowing foreign troops to march through it's lands, and not just it's border lands, from one end to another, they allow them to conduct military operations, war even, straight across the length of their empire, against their own lands, their own citizens, they allow them to dictate religious policy, or policy period. That is definitionally a failed state. The Empire is a Thalmor state with collaborators from it's old government to keep the peace.

But I suppose WW2 france was just "biding its time".

It isn't ww2 France. I mean what other country was humiliated in a peace treaty, had foreign soldiers marching into their territory, a victorious enemy enforcing policy and itching for round 2? That sounds more like another country, except without an angry liberal arts student to muck things up.
 

Shipmaster Sane

You have been weighed
It isn't ww2 France. I mean what other country was humiliated in a peace treaty, had foreign soldiers marching into their territory, a victorious enemy enforcing policy and itching for round 2? That sounds more like another country, except without an angry liberal arts student to muck things up.
Are you implying that interwar Germany wasnt a beaten, conquered, and ultimately failed state?
 

Hlaalu Agent

Nerevar going to let you down
Founder
Are you implying that interwar Germany wasnt a beaten, conquered, and ultimately failed state?

Yes, but they were due for a realignment, and if it wasn't the Nazis, it would have been the Commies, or someone actually sane. I am pretty sure I mostly object to the comparison to France. As per the DB questline, the Empire is due for a change in leadership, and that would create a change in direction and the Emperor set himself up as a national martyr to rally around, rather than being a failed leader.
 

Christi

Well-known member
The Empire ceased to exist. When foreign soldiers can march unchecked through your lands and attack your citizens, and you allow this, when foreign powers can dictate to you what gods you can worship, you are not a state.
No it did not. Instead of beating his chest about how much of a badass he was and how other people could die for his beliefs.
The Emperor signed a treaty to give his armies time to rebuild and strengthen for the next war.
In real life you accept a setback to win a war.
No I live in reality. I don’t need to beat my chest, and act like I’m a bad ass.
I’ve actually trained at war instead playing a few game or read some book oh great master strategist.
The Emperor didn’t have save and try again. It didn’t have lower the difficulty and the ability to sit of the comfort of home.
He had an occupied heart-land and a depleted army.

A lot of you think you’re billy badass but you don’t know the first thing about real war.
Which is despite what anime tells you. Getting back up again and again doesn’t win you the war. It makes you a target to be knocked down.
He didn’t know how strong their forces were. His forces were depleted and part of the capital region occupied.
Any sane leader would make the same call.
Hammerfell only managed to throw them off because the Empire defeated most of their forces and they were at the end of a long supply line.

The Civil War is going on because of Ulfric and his supporters are full of shit.
His grand plan is to weaken Skyrim through civil war when he could have gotten the High King who was known to be sympathetic to his cause to back him. Thus having a stronger economic and martial force to call on.
He even called away personnel and money that could be spent elsewhere strengthening the Empire for round two.
That’s why his rebellion and he is an asset to the Elves.
Furthermore, the Empire didn’t even enforce the ban before idiots like the Stormcloaks made a spectacle out of it forcing them to do so.
 
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CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
@Christi
I think the Thalmor even kidnapped him to sorta of slowly implant thoughts and a sort of guilt complex in him

Also, kinda funny but if you kill Thalmor in front of others, I recall that pretty much nobody minds or looks to even turn a blind eye. Even the Imperials.
 

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