Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

[KilroywasNOTHere]

Enterprise was always bad.

The prequels had detractors -- and there are good reasons for that -- but were widely liked. Mind you, I'm not talking about hardcore fan reaction here, which is always tricky business. I'm saying most audiences liked the prequels well enough. And I think the key factor there is that they had a story with a beginning, a middle and an end. If you look back after watching all three, you can say "it started here, then went through that, and ended up there."

The sequels don't have that. They don't... cohere. Structurally, they're a big mess. And stories don't work when they have no good bones.

This is why the prequels will always be seen as flawed, but also having merit. There will be people who expected something else (something better), and will never accept the prequels. And that's valid. In fact, I greatly enjoy substituting my own fanon take on the prequel era and reading old EU books, all while pretending SW just stopped in 1999 or so. But that's always going to be a minority approach. Most people aren't so negative about the sequels--

And that was already becoming evident in the run-up to TFA. Generally speaking, most people who actually hated the sequels were invested fans, and so by definition a bit older than "kids" in 1999. But by the early 2010s, the kids of 1999 had grown up, or nearly so, and they'd enjoyed the prequels quite a lot, thank you very much. To them, it was never "my childhood is ruined". It was just "my childhood".

Are they too kind to the prequels because they have saw-them-as-kids nostalgia goggles? Are some others perhaps too unkind because the prequels didn't live up to expectations? (Honestly: would they have gotten any real hate if they hadn't been SW films?) Something to be said for both assertions, I think.

But here's a question: how many children liked the sequels? Say what you will of George Lucas, but he could make films that kids loved. Stories that defined childhoods. The sequels haven't done anything like that. Hence my prediction that the prequels will be remembered as flawed but possessed of certain merits, while the sequels will just be additions to the dusty ranks of "empty cash-grab sequels".

There are kids mainly preteens who do like the sequel so there is a chance it could become a cult classic that was overhated in hindsight, not a guarantee but possible. One thing that the prequels did that the sequels have yet to do is expanded material. Think of TCW as you will but both it and the Prequels did a lot to win haters over to the Clone Wars era not to mention tons of video games and the like.


Meanwhile, The ST in that same time period has had a short lived cheap-looking show, 1 video game and only a handful of books and a horrible short-lived overpriced hotel and a theme park that's dwindling in park attendance. The freaking HIGH REPUBLIC has had more promotion than the ST trilogy era has had. Not even Disney wants to touch the ST era with a 10-foot pole. That is the death knell to the ST more than anything.

 

[evilchumlee]

Meanwhile, The ST in that same time period has had a short lived cheap-looking show, 1 video game and only a handful of books and a horrible short-lived overpriced theme park attraction. The freaking HIGH REPUBLIC has had more promotion than the ST trilogy era has had. Not even Disney wants to touch the ST era with a 10-foot pole. That is the death knell to the ST more than anything.

The hotel thing died, but Galaxy's Edge is still very much alive, and still Sequel themed... and it take quite a bit for it to NOT be sequel themed.

Flight of the Falcon could probably bolt onto something else.

Rise of the Resistance is... not going anywhere. You would have to do a TON of redesigning to make that not Sequel themed.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

The hotel thing died, but Galaxy's Edge is still very much alive, and still Sequel themed... and it take quite a bit for it to NOT be sequel themed.

Flight of the Falcon could probably bolt onto something else.

Rise of the Resistance is... not going anywhere. You would have to do a TON of redesigning to make that not Sequel themed.

fixed

 

[Bigking321]

The part that really burns me is the wasted potential.

There was SO MUCH they could have done with star wars that would have been brilliant.

Show the warlords era with a rogue squadron TV show! Lots of different villains and world building with a close knit team of heroes and a more grounded take on what it takes to beat and replace a empire.

Do a more serious bounty hunter show! Show the seedy underbelly of the galaxy. Hell, rip off the black list and have each episode focus on some new character either opposed or allied to our bounty hunter characters. Have Boba Fett be the end boss hired to kill us.

Have a Game of Thrones style show based around intrigue and politics. Have New republic and empire sides. Show the cultures of various major powers and worlds as they struggle to take control of a fractured post emperor galaxy.

Do Thrawn (properly) as the sequel trilogy.

Show Luke dealing with being a jedi. How he disagrees with how the jedi were in the prequels. Training a brand new generation of jedi as they muddle through having lost so much of their history and tradition.

There are so many good ideas and they wasted all of it and billions of dollars to make utter garbage and destroy the brand.

So depressing...

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

As I said the first time I saw it was on live TV. I thought you either saw it that way or on video tape. Unless you are younger than I am.

I probably am, yes. I watched it on my grandfather's Betamax, but that was a long time ago. The tape should still be fine, but the player went kaput a long time ago. God knows where I can find a new player these days, and even if I did, smart money says it's going to cost a small fortune.

 

[Typhonis]

I probably am, yes. I watched it on my grandfather's Betamax, but that was a long time ago. The tape should still be fine, but the player went kaput a long time ago. God knows where I can find a new player these days, and even if I did, smart money says it's going to cost a small fortune.

*Nods* My VHS player died and I feel your pain.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

*Nods* My VHS player died and I feel your pain.

*chuckles*

Not at your VHS player being kaput, but at fond memories. I have the original trilogy (and pre-remaster at that) on VHS, and somehow, it feels a lot more...authentic, than the crisp and clean DVD remaster. There's something about the ever so grainy resolution and even natural lighting that makes it feel...real, you know?

EDIT: I particularly remember watching ESB for the first time on VHS. I know the whole 'I am your father' scene is the most iconic part of that film, but strangely enough, the one scene that sticks with me the most is the Imperial Fleet's intro. Drums start beating, Destroyers can be seen in the distance, and then zoom out! The command tower of another Destroyer flies past the screen, TIE Fighters zoom all over the place, then a shadow falls over the fleet, and then zoom out again, to reveal the simply beautiful bulk of the Executor.

I know the Empire are the bad guys, but damn, I can't help but root for them thanks to that one scene. Strangely enough, never felt the same about the First Order. They just never had the...impact, or appeal, of the Empire, for some reason.

 

[Typhonis]

Yeah. Han shot first. I always felt it was perfectly in character for him. Hell, it also makes sense. Greedo didn't tell him to put his hands where he could see them. I bet someone somewhere cut that scene and showed it to rookie police officers with a "Do not do this. This is why."

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

Yeah. Han shot first. I always felt it was perfectly in character for him. Hell, it also makes sense. Greedo didn't tell him to put his hands where he could see them. I bet someone somewhere cut that scene and showed it to rookie police officers with a "Do not do this. This is why."

Okay, what? Seems like something out of left field, all of a sudden.

 

[Typhonis]

You were talking about the original series. That made me think of Star Wars before the special editions were released. Which led to George changing the cantina scene so Greedo shot first...

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

You were talking about the original series. That made me think of Star Wars before the special editions were released. Which led to George changing the cantina scene so Greedo shot first...

LMAO, OK, yeah I see what you mean

 

[evilchumlee]

Yeah. Han shot first. I always felt it was perfectly in character for him. Hell, it also makes sense. Greedo didn't tell him to put his hands where he could see them. I bet someone somewhere cut that scene and showed it to rookie police officers with a "Do not do this. This is why."

I agree with this. It takes away from the character of Han for him to not shoot first.

Star Wars is a tough nut though. So many people want it to be different things. When I think of Star Wars, I always think to a quote from Lucas that i'll paraphrase because I don't have the exact quote, said sometimes after Disney bought it, "I wasn't allowed to say this before but I can now, but Star Wars is made for a 12 year old boy. I'm happy that people of all ages can enjoy it but everyone should remember that Star Wars is fantasy designed for a 12 year old boy."

Star Wars is a light hearted, kid-centric space fantasy.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Han is the original Andor...the anti-hero.

 

[Husky_Khan]

The Force Awakens was solid entertainment. It was very obviously inspired by the original Star Wars A New Hope and basically followed its storyline to a crazy degree but it was good. It was one of those films where I came out thinking, Wow that was great. And then after a few days or weeks pass you are like... It was decent I guess.

The Last Jedi was trash. I won't expand. It is known.

The Rise of Skywalker, I watched it in theaters. I had little expectation of how they'd try and recover and when I saw it, I thought it was Okay. Like average. It covered a lot of stuff that I really didn't care about, introduced characters whose names I don't remember, and overall I actually think... I've only seen The Rise of Skywalker once... which was initially in theaters. That's just how much I liked it. Which isn't much at all. My kids never really ask to watch it again. They do with the OT and PT.

Of the Prequel Trilogy, I think The Phantom Menace was actually fine. I loved it as a kid and its still good entertainment now. Childish sure but there was a lot of cool stuff going on and while Jar Jar Binks was kind of annoying, they made him far too much a meme for me to think it's all serious criticism of him. And Jake Lloyd as young Anakin was fine. Plus the lightsaber duels were awesome and so was the Pod Race.

Attack of the Clones was kinda boring. It had nice bits with Kamino and Geonosis and Obi Wan tracking down Jango Fett and the final battle(s) was just a treat. But yeah, the romance was lackluster and slowed up the movie a fair bit. Quality wise, decent. Entertainment wise, well I still think its more entertaining than most of the Sequel Trilogy.

I really liked Revenge of the Sith. I think it's quality is comparable to the Original Trilogy, fuck you fight me! I was really hating what a fucking asshole Palpatine was in that movie and it had me rethinking my Imperial fandom tendencies.

So yeah overall IMHO I think the Prequel Trilogy was superior to the Sequel Trilogy and the passage of time will not elevate the Sequel Trilogy to a similar level of beloved quality as the Prequel Trilogy. The Last Jedi really ruined the momentum and the entire lack of a trilogy long story arc really seemed to kill any possibility of the third installment of the Sequel Trilogy being any good. They tried... and missed for the most part in trying to save what Ruin Johnson had wrecked. Sad.

 

[Bacle]

I've long been a core audience type for Star Wars, and frankly Andor had no appeal to me at all. This claim that it would appeal to long term fans of the franchise who have been turned off by Disney, as I have with a lot of their recent offerings, doesn't hold water, because Andor suffers from the same problem that almost all of current Star Wars, including all the Sequel movies, suffers from: A fundamental misunderstanding of the core of Star Wars.

Star Wars, at it's core, is a Heroic Epic pitting larger than life Good against larger than life Evil. Say what you will about the Prequels, but they still understood this core aspect of Star Wars. Star Wars is not a setting about shades of gray, no matter how much people pretend or want it to be. It is an explicitly Black and White setting founded in a form of Absolutist Morality where the Means are just as, if not more, important than the Ends.

This is why the Force and the lore around it is so important to Star Wars, and any Star Wars property that brushes aside the Force ends up being hollow.

But Star War's core morality is at odds with the preferred morality of the modern world. Star Wars, at it's core, embraces a Stoic / Christian / Buddhist hybrid philosophy of enlightenment, where denial of personal wants and desires in pursuit of higher ideals is seen as a Good Thing, while indulging in self pleasure and hedonism is seen as explicitly a Bad Thing. That holds up hard work and self improvement as good goals, while denying that people are just innately good at things because of who they are. It sees the Means as just as, if not more important, than the Ends, and in fact holds that the Means by which you go about things will actually end up impacting your Ends even if you did not want it to. There is no "using evil powers for good" within the core of Star Wars, as as you use evil powers to pursue your goals they will invariably twist you until you destroy your own original goal (see, for instance, the entire Fall of Anakin).

The Chiss Sky-walkers would like a word about there only being two sides of the Force that require some moral standing to operate in, same with the Nightsisters and other inhabitants of Dathomir.

Star Wars was never black and white morality, it just disguised mind-rape antics by the good guys (memory modification by Obi-wan) and other less-than-ethical Force uses as 'ok, because happening to bad guys'.

People who dislike Star Wars no longer pretending the world is black and white, and showing the distasteful sort of things a successful rebellion/revolution has to do to survive, need to stop trying to escape the reality that 'Black and White morality' never exists except in the mind of children too young to understand the world's nuances.

I mean Lucas has straight up said SW was meant for 12 year olds, who he thinks are the most insightful people in the world, and his divorce with his wife over the films is part of why he doesn't allow Jedi any attachment (since his marriage fell apart).

 

[DarthOne]

The Chiss Sky-walkers would like a word about there only being two sides of the Force that require some moral standing to operate in, same with the Nightsisters and other inhabitants of Dathomir.

Which is something unique to the Disney-Verse. The Witches of Dathomir, while they did exist prior to Disney, were split between the various witch tribes and the Darkside Nightsisters. At least until TCW came along and made a mess of things by just acting like the Nightsisters were all the existed.

Star Wars was never black and white morality, it just disguised mind-rape antics by the good guys (memory modification by Obi-wan) and other less-than-ethical Force uses as 'ok, because happening to bad guys'.

Wow. Hi FF.net writer from the early 2000’s! How’s you’d end up here?

Wait, never mind. I need to warn you about how bad things are going to be in the next few years of your future! Maybe you can lessen this nightmare hellscape we find ourselves in now!

People who dislike Star Wars no longer pretending the world is black and white, and showing the distasteful sort of things a successful rebellion/revolution has to do to survive, need to stop trying to escape the reality that 'Black and White morality' never exists except in the mind of children too young to understand the world's nuances.

Did you just say that the good guys did shady stuff? Like the memory modification and mind rape?

I mean Lucas has straight up said SW was meant for 12 year olds, who he thinks are the most insightful people in the world, and his divorce with his wife over the films is part of why he doesn't allow Jedi any attachment (since his marriage fell apart).

Lucas has his issues, yes. This is known.

 

[Skallagrim]

I mean Lucas has straight up said SW was meant for 12 year olds, who he thinks are the most insightful people in the world

George Lucas also said (in fact, in the most famous quote where he says that SW is for young people) that his explicit goal was to tell said young people a moral story about how Good and Evil actually exist and aren't up for interpretation...

Kind of the opposite of what you're saying.

You may prefer a different kind of story, but citing half a quote and ignoring the other half that cuts your whole argument to pieces is not a convincing move.

 

[evilchumlee]

The Rise of Skywalker, I watched it in theaters. I had little expectation of how they'd try and recover and when I saw it, I thought it was Okay. Like average. It covered a lot of stuff that I really didn't care about, introduced characters whose names I don't remember, and overall I actually think... I've only seen The Rise of Skywalker once... which was initially in theaters. That's just how much I liked it. Which isn't much at all. My kids never really ask to watch it again. They do with the OT and PT.

Rise of Skywalker makes me even more angry at Last Jedi. If it had ANYTHING to work with, it could have been actually pretty good. Instead it had to be two movies in one because TLJ was just an utter waste of time, so TRoS was the real 8 and 9 shmushed together.

I've watched it a few times. It grows on me alittle more each time, and the novelization was not bad at all, really fleshing out an interesting dynamic that didn't quite get fleshed out in the movie (the whole idea that Rey has been consistently pulled to the dark side and is in a constant struggle to not succumb.)

There's even internal things that were wasted or missed the mark... rather than weird space horses and people they just met doing the ground assault thing, they could have wedged in the Finn Stormtrooper rebellion. They could have actually used the force ghosts to back up Rey, not just the vague voices (but of course, then we detract from "girl power!").

I have absolutely no problem with Palpatine returning. It's honestly the only thing that makes the ST even make any sort of sense at all. It should have been set up earlier, like... the second act of the trilogy, but we were to busy fucking that up. And, fuck you Rey Skywalker. No you're not.

I've had my own alternate ending for the whole thing. I made it back when trying to fix TLJ, so TRoS ends up totally different. Kylo tells Rey who her parents are, she learns she's a Palpatine. She actually totally knew... she just wouldn't admit it to herself. She was hoping she was wrong. Kylo asks her to join and she DOES. There you go. Subverting expectations. Everyone is always on how awesome gray Jedi are... so... that's the resolution to the issues. Palpatine somehow returns, yadda yadda happens, Kylo and Rey realize what they need to do to beat him and stop the cycle of shit from repeating. They both give in alittle. Kylo lets himself "fall" to the light, Rey surrenders to the dark.

What actually happens is... neither of them become some stereotype. Turns out, not everything is black and white, good vs. evil... when they finally just accept that balance ACTUALLY means balancing light and dark, it saves the day. The ultimate ending is somewhat bittersweet... Palpatine is defeated, but the First Order wins... we have Rey and Kylo in charge, with the understanding that to truly be successful, strength and order is absolutely necessary, tempered by understanding and compassion.

It does go counter to George's Star Wars, which was always very simply good vs. evil, that's it. The end.

 

[Husky_Khan]

I think it's important to note that the main theme of Star Wars is as a good v. evil morality tale.

Just because Babylon 5 had an episode about labor union rights and Battlestar Galactica had an episode about... lol... abortion issues... doesn't mean the main storylines of these scifi sagas are about workers rights and being pro-choice with pregnant uhhh persons.

Andor and Rogue One can perfectly exist in Star Wars and can be very good. But they ain't the core of Star Wars and its overall theme. It's just like you can have stories without Jedi and Sith. That's perfectly fine too. But those elements are still core to the Star Wars setting.

 

[Bacle]

Which is something unique to the Disney-Verse. The Witches of Dathomir, while they did exist prior to Disney, were split between the various witch tribes and the Darkside Nightsisters. At least until TCW came along and made a mess of things by just acting like the Nightsisters were all the existed.

Eh, Dathomir would be cooler with the other tribes, that's true.

Singing Mountain Clan was pretty neat with their rancor mounts and such.

Wow. Hi FF.net writer from the early 2000’s! How’s you’d end up here?

Wait, never mind. I need to warn you about how bad things are going to be in the next few years of your future! Maybe you can lessen this nightmare hellscape we find ourselves in now!

Just pointing out that when you factor in the way the Jedi treat non-Force users as 'can modify their memory at will if we want to', and it's just shrugged off, kinda undercuts the idea the the OT was a 'Black and White' world.

Did you just say that the good guys did shady stuff? Like the memory modification and mind rape?

No, meant shit like what Andor did during his series, and what Mon Mothma did in that series too.

Mon Mothma is actually really shrewd and not above dirty moves t support the rebellion, including an arrianged marriage for her daughter.

Or Saw and Luthen letting another rebel cell get wiped out to protect Luthen's mole in the ISB.

Lucas has his issues, yes. This is known.

Except it's portrayed as some sort of 'monastic' thing in S'task's argument, when it's really about Lucas's own issues with his marriage and divorce.

George Lucas also said (in fact, in the most famous quote where he says that SW is for young people) that his explicit goal was to tell said young people a moral story about how Good and Evil actually exist and aren't up for interpretation...

Kind of the opposite of what you're saying.

You may prefer a different kind of story, but citing half a quote and ignoring the other half that cuts your whole argument to pieces is not a convincing move.

Yes, I've seen Lucas's quote about that too, which is again him wanting to tell kids a comforting lie because of his own issues.