Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

[DarthOne]

To be fair, that's pretty much something the EU made up out of thin air. We *never* actually saw these supposed Imperial Army grunts exist anywhere in the movies, especially since General Veers' field armor is *literally* modified Snowtrooper gear.



I somewhat disagree here -- while ANH was thin on backstory, the "Clone Wars" were clearly indicated to be something in the past, which would contradict clones still being around.

True, but considering the OT was set around either elite Imperial installations or leaders like Darth Vader, it makes sense that the Empire would have their best soldiers there instead of the regular grunts.

Also, there are the locations to consider; Stormtrooper gear is semi-vacuum proof, which is certainly a plus aboard star destroyers and Death Stars. As for Hoth...well, we all saw what an unpleasant place that was and it makes sense to have soldiers with gear more suited to certain environments. Basically, stormtrooper armor, or variants of it, make more sense to use in certain places.

And above all, it accomplishes two things more. First, it helps parallel the Galactic Empire with Nazi Germany. With the Stormtroopers being stand-ins for those on Nazi Germany, usually Waffen SS. Which by default, means the GE is gonna have the equivalent of normal Army soliders. Furthermore, the Imperial Army Troopers, at least in theory, allows various characters to go up against Imperial soldiers without suffering the issues that the Return of the Jedi and the Disney Wars setting now face. Namely, making the supposedly 'elite' soldiers of the enemy look pathetic.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

And above all, it accomplishes two things more. First, it helps parallel the Galactic Empire with Nazi Germany. With the Stormtroopers being stand-ins for those on Nazi Germany, usually Waffen SS. Which by default, means the GE is gonna have the equivalent of normal Army soliders. Furthermore, the Imperial Army Troopers, at least in theory, allows various characters to go up against Imperial soldiers without suffering the issues that the Return of the Jedi and the Disney Wars setting now face. Namely, making the supposedly 'elite' soldiers of the enemy look pathetic.

I'd imagine a big problem with the Imperial Army for writers is that these chaps have open helmets.

You can see their faces, which makes it somewhat disturbing that these people die with painful expressions whilst our heroes shoot zany quips at each other.

 

[LindyAF]

I think it's also just that since they're not as used, they're not clearly identifiably Imperial. And also since it was Stormtroopers that were ubiquitously used in the OT, they're not Imperial baseline for audiences, they're below Imperial baseline, so it sort of sends a signal that whatever the story is about isn't that important, since the Empire effectively has their JV team on it.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

For "Elite Imperial Force" I love the Death Trooper design. Easily identifiable, clearly Imperial, but also clearly elite. Also, those helmets are bad ass.

100% agree on that. The live-action Death Trooper gear is one of the very best elements of the Disney Reboot, as is the fact that they consistently make sure to use stunt guys for the Death Troopers who are visibly bigger and burlier than the ones for Stormtroopers.

Haven't seen the Mandalorian but watching a few clips it seems like a big worldbuilding issue is making Mando armor seemingly completely blaster-proof? I don't like that.

It's not *completely* blaster-proof. Only the actual beskar plates are that tough.

More blaster resistant than stormtrooper gear might make sense, but total immunity or at least as much resistance as they have leads to scenes where Mandos basically stand around in the open while lines of stormtroopers are firing at them (something that never happens in the OT).

There are multiple fights in the Mandalorian that make it clear he's far from invincible -- a sufficient weight of blaster fire can pin him down and take him apart, and snipers can pretty easily target the soft spots in his armor.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Also, there are the locations to consider; Stormtrooper gear is semi-vacuum proof, which is certainly a plus aboard star destroyers and Death Stars. As for Hoth...well, we all saw what an unpleasant place that was and it makes sense to have soldiers with gear more suited to certain environments. Basically, stormtrooper armor, or variants of it, make more sense to use in certain places.

I think it's a perfectly reasonable headcanon that Stormtroopers are basically the equivalent of naval infantry / Marines, so you wouldn't see the Army except in large-scale set-piece operations, which pretty much never happened against the Rebels. However, this is only a headcanon and the never-seen, occasionally-referred to Imperial Army was one of the aspects of the EU that no one bothered to think out.

 

[BlackDragon98]

The fact that there aren't Mandalorian crushgaunts, beskad, and kai blades is why I decided to never touch the show.

 

[Urabrask Revealed]

The fact that there aren't Mandalorian crushgaunts, beskad, and kai blades is why I decided to never touch the show.

No Mandalorian War Basillisks either. Goddamn, that their design has been forced to change was a crime!

 

[LindyAF]

I might be in the minority here but I am relatively okay with Disney taking away some of the Mandos special snowflake toys. They frankly always had too many.

 

[DarthOne]

I might be in the minority here but I am relatively okay with Disney taking away some of the Mandos special snowflake toys. They frankly always had too many.

I mean, the equivalent of power gauntlets, a type of sword and a droid ship aren't exactly unqiue to the Mandalorians, or at least should be in theory given the size of the setting...

 

[LindyAF]

With the sword my stance is more that it shouldn't be a Special Thing. It's like a katana. If they're in something as just a variant of a sword common in japan, that's fine. If it's "I train with my Katana every day, this superior weapon can cut clean through steel because it is folded over a thousand times, and is vastly superior to any other weapon on earth" then it's obnoxious and doesn't fit in the setting.

The others my issue is more that per wookiepedia the crushgauntlets are lightsaber-proof and lightsaber-proof materials in Star Wars are often cancer (especially with Mandos), and also that the Basilisks are a one-war-machine-that-does-everything.

 

[BlackDragon98]

The others my issue is more that per wookiepedia the crushgauntlets are lightsaber-proof and lightsaber-proof materials in Star Wars are often cancer (especially with Mandos), and also that the Basilisks are a one-war-machine-that-does-everything.

In the EU, crushgaunts were banned by the Mandos for the longest time until Mandalore Boba Fett recinded the ban after finding the crushgaunt to be a very effective weapon against the Yuuzhan Vong and their living crab armor. Compared to what the Vong had, a crushgaunt is pretty low tech.

Thing with Beskar is that it's incredibly rare, to offset it's power. And it's not lightsaber proof either. Exar Kun destroyed the beskar door to Freedon Nadd's tomb with repeated lightsaber strikes on the highest power setting because unlike Cortosis, beskar doesn't short out a sabre.
It can just withstand it for much long than normal materials.

And the Basilisks aren't even a Mando design. The Mandalorians took it from another species they defeated, the Basiliskans. It's basically the Mando version of an HMP droid gunship TBH.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

I might be in the minority here but I am relatively okay with Disney taking away some of the Mandos special snowflake toys. They frankly always had too many.

It also makes sense that Din simply doesn't have access to all the 'traditional' Mandalorian equipment set anyway, because he's a relative newbie in the early stages of his career *and* he's part of a splinter Mandalorian sect that's trying to stay in hiding because of the Imperial purge of Mandalorians.

Thing with Beskar is that it's incredibly rare, to offset it's power. And it's not lightsaber proof either. Exar Kun destroyed the beskar door to Freedon Nadd's tomb with repeated lightsaber strikes on the highest power setting because unlike Cortosis, beskar doesn't short out a sabre. It can just withstand it for much long than normal materials.

Yes, and this is how it's tacitly portrayed in The Mandalorian -- when a lightsaber is parried by a beskar spear, the shaft around the strike very rapidly heats red-hot in a much wider area than the point of contact. This provides a clear visual indication that extended contact would burn through.

The visuals also hint that beskar's extreme resilience to both lightsaber strikes and blaster bolts is a function of extreme thermal conductivity, which allows the metal to rapidly absorb and dissipate an energy weapon strike. This is probably combined with active shock absorption in the armor underlayer, given the way the Mando survives massive physical blows and is only staggered by high powered blaster hits. However, we do also see that both of these defenses can be overwhelmed by either massive blows or very rapid, repeated blows.

And the Basilisks aren't even a Mando design. The Mandalorians took it from another species they defeated, the Basiliskans. It's basically the Mando version of an HMP droid gunship TBH.

It's kinda hilarious how Basilisk War Droids are this huge thing in the fandom considering that it was something made up for KOTOR that you never actually see, ever. All there is to it is Canderous Ordo's fond reminiscing about it, and even when they had a Basilisk in KOTOR 2, it was a complete bait and switch because it had NOTHING in common with Ordo's description in KOTOR.

 

[AspblastUSA]

The visuals also hint that beskar's extreme resilience to both lightsaber strikes and blaster bolts is a function of extreme thermal conductivity, which allows the metal to rapidly absorb and dissipate an energy weapon strike.

That’s actually how the anti-Mandalorian weapon worked in Rebels. It weaponized beskar’s extreme thermal conductivity by hitting it with enough energy to rapidly superheat an entire suit.

In the show it was a disintegration weapon but I imagine without being constrained to being in a kids show it would be nasty

 

[BlackDragon98]

In A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back imperials consistently do well against non-main characters, and lose to main characters in non-ridiculous or embarrassing ways. But by the third movie, the focus on the main characters meant that we'd mostly seen them losing, and then Return of the Jedi has them lose to non-main characters in a ridiculous and embarrassing way (albeit with main character support), so they had a bad reputation going in the EU, and the EU then double and tripled down.

It can actually be easily explained.

because of the losses suffered by the Empire between A New Hope and the beginning of Return of the Jedi, they were forced to promote a bunch of Imperial Army grunts to the Stormtrooper Corps, decreasing the overall quality of stormtroopers.

Just like how the Spaartai grown, flashed trained clone troopers were vastly inferior to the original Fett clones.

 

[LindyAF]

tbh I think this is one of the things that it's better for the franchise if it isn't explained?

Like, IIRC there were other explanations for why Stormtroopers had poor accuracy - stuff like "oh well it's the helmets, it makes it hard to see" or "the E-11 had quality control issues" and stuff, but the issue with that is that now there's canonical reasons for Stormtroopers to lose besides "the main characters had plot armor" and so now it makes sense for them to be even worse.

Also tbh, I'm not really a huge fan of the idea of the Imperial Army as something separate from Stormtroopers or the lore that the Imperial Army was the Empire's main infantry force and the Stormtroopers were an elite core. Like, the Imperial Army existing is IMO dumb lore that ought to be cut. The explanation still works alright with them just conscripting people to the Stormtroopers / rushing clones out though.

 

[Knowledgeispower]

I will once again note that even when factoring main characters Stormtroopers have an insane accuracy rate by modern standards. You know the one where on average it takes the full ammo load of an infantry company on average to kill one person. Even factoring in main characters Stormtroopers hit their mark once out of 25 shots fired. Without main characters it's more 17%

 

[BlackDragon98]

Anyone know a good name for an Imperial Remnant faction ruled by an Empress?

I'm in the process of writing a Imperial Officer SI that starts right after the Battle of Endor and I need a name for the SI's faction (more like his wife's faction though he is Prince-Admiral (Grand Moff and Prince Consort).

 

[LindyAF]

Any faction claiming to be the lawful successors of the Empire would probably just call themselves the Empire internally, and get called something like [ruler name]-ists by their enemies. Otherwise, star wars state names are rarely super original, could go with some generic Empire-esque name like the Dominion, the Authority, etc. Or base it off the capital world / system. Or [Dynasty Name] Empire.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Like, IIRC there were other explanations for why Stormtroopers had poor accuracy - stuff like "oh well it's the helmets, it makes it hard to see" or "the E-11 had quality control issues" and stuff, but the issue with that is that now there's canonical reasons for Stormtroopers to lose besides "the main characters had plot armor" and so now it makes sense for them to be even worse.

Stormtroopers actually demonstrate extremely high accuracy compared to real-life soldiers, and Luke's "I can't see a thing in this helmet!" was pretty clearly because he was a hick farmboy who didn't know how to actually use the helmet's HUD and vision enhancement systems.

 

[Captain X]

I thought that was supposed to be a welding mask, so he actually wouldn't be able to see.