Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

Keep in mind that Mom Mothma went on to kick Bel Iblis out of the Alliance for refusing to send his troops on suicide missions just because she said so, and subsequently assumed unilateral control over the Alliance.
That's not what happened. That's not even what Bel Iblis said happened. He wasn't kicked out, he left. Not because of suicide missions, but because he believed that Mon Mothma was going to become a centralist post-war. The issue was that she was acting without consulting others, and he believed that she was going to rule unilaterally ("another Palpatine") if the rebels won.

The Thrawn Trilogy makes it clear that she didn't do this, that Bel Iblis knew that he'd judged her to hastily (mistaking her actions as a rebel leader in war-time for her behaviour as a civilian leader in peace-time), but was too proud to admit it. Meanwhile, Mon was stung by his earlier decision to leave, and didn't want to invite him back. They reconciled when prompted.

So you're basically projecting Bel Iblis's fears of what Mon Mothma would be and treating them as fact, even though the opposite is true. Unless you stop doing that, this discussion is pointless, because you're just projecting your fanon onto canon.

All in all, the EU's New Republic only stuck together out of blatant plot railroading. There is literally zero sensible reason that *any* of the major systems should have joined the New Republic at all, much less stayed in it once the political corruption started seriously rearing its head.
That's purely your interpretation. I've given a key reason why sticking together would make sense (an economic motive), and I've described the canonical facts (decentralism; legal right to unilateral secession) that would and did make this route attractive to those who might otherwise have balked.

The fact that you don't consider a reason convincing, or alternatively the fact that you waqnt to ignore that reason and pretend your fanon is true instead, doesn't make your personal opinion into fact.

By the way, since I've named canonically established facts underpinning my reasoning, could you give some evidence of the political corruption that you claim reared its head? When was this? Where did this occur, and when it did, was it the NR government doing it, or was the NR government actively fighting local corruption? I can cite evidence of the latter, but I'm not aware of concrete examples of the former.

In fact, central government corruption only became an issue when Caedus seized power. And then it did, in fact, lead to secession.

Canonically on paper, but also canonically plot-railed out of existence.
You keep talking about "plot-railed". This seems to be your term for "anything something happens in canon that doesn't fit my fanon". The fact is, Caedus abolished the principles of decentralism and secession when he seized power. While I'll happily grant that entire book series sucks, it's not somehow "plot-railing".
 
I'm surprised that was stable for a thousand years before Palpatine!

To be fair, the restrictions aren't so bad that they were outgunned by pirates for the most part. During the Stark Hyperspace war for instance, Tarkin may have been brash but I doubt he would have committed if he didn't think the ROSF couldn't take Stark's flotilla in a straight fight.

The Republic's problem wasn't so much demilitarization as a concept (given the Hutts were the only ones left that they'd even need proper capital ships to take on and nobody has wanted to try that in millennia) but more that they went so far beyond even what the reformation required as to let the Judicial forces atrophy to the point of near uselessness. I imagine for the better part of the thousand years in question the Republic had a strong Judicial fleet containing patrol ships and lighter cruisers perfectly capable of slapping would-be pirate lords in up-gunned freighters down.
 
Speaking of Disney Canon Versus Legends Canon

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Don't do that to me. I tried to give the Disney canon a chance, I really did, but the Aftermath books torpedoed that with a nuke.

To be fair, the restrictions aren't so bad that they were outgunned by pirates for the most part. During the Stark Hyperspace war for instance, Tarkin may have been brash but I doubt he would have committed if he didn't think the ROSF couldn't take Stark's flotilla in a straight fight.

The Republic's problem wasn't so much demilitarization as a concept (given the Hutts were the only ones left that they'd even need proper capital ships to take on and nobody has wanted to try that in millennia) but more that they went so far beyond even what the reformation required as to let the Judicial forces atrophy to the point of near uselessness. I imagine for the better part of the thousand years in question the Republic had a strong Judicial fleet containing patrol ships and lighter cruisers perfectly capable of slapping would-be pirate lords in up-gunned freighters down.
Its pretty heavily inferred that the Old Republic's problems were long festering ossification that never got rectified because the Senate could just use the Jedi to patch any cracks in the system. Jedi are incredibly cheap so why spend money maintaining fast response cruisers when that money could be better spent enriching the backers of Senator McCorruptalot.
 
That's not what happened. That's not even what Bel Iblis said happened. He wasn't kicked out, he left. Not because of suicide missions, but because he believed that Mon Mothma was going to become a centralist post-war. The issue was that she was acting without consulting others, and he believed that she was going to rule unilaterally ("another Palpatine") if the rebels won.

It is EU canon for what happened. The Thrawn Trilogy laid out the basic lines, but Bel Iblis' departure was detailed in the short story Differences of Opinion, which is what I was summarizing. Here's a direct quote from the final confrontation between the two:

"Do you understand me? I will not send my troops on a suicide attack. And I do not recognize your authority to order them to. I did not vote to place you in charge of the Alliance, and if Bail did, then he was gravely mistaken."

"Senator Bel Iblis, I sincerely hope that was not an ultimatum."

"Yes, I guess it is. This attack plan is fundamentally flawed, and you just don't have the expertise to know it."

"I will not have ultimatums put to me, Senator. The Rebel Alliance will no longer require your services.
"

So you're basically projecting Bel Iblis's fears of what Mon Mothma would be and treating them as fact, even though the opposite is true. Unless you stop doing that, this discussion is pointless, because you're just projecting your fanon onto canon.

No, I am quite closely paraphrasing an EU canon story. You apparently didn't read or didn't remember this one.

As quoted above, it is *crystal* clear that Mothma unilaterally decided after Bail Organa's death that the leadership of the Alliance fell solely to her and that Bel Iblis was required to follow her orders even though military operations had been his sphere of experience and authority in the previous leadership trio. When he refused her orders, she explicitly declared that the Rebel Alliance (under her sole authority) was firing him. Bel Iblis is shown to have believed that she was demanding the suicide mission with the intent of murdering his base of support within the Alliance; he's wrong about that, but he *is* right that Mothma was dead-set on establishing herself as sole leader of the Alliance regardless of the consequences.

By the way, since I've named canonically established facts underpinning my reasoning, could you give some evidence of the political corruption that you claim reared its head? When was this? Where did this occur, and when it did, was it the NR government doing it, or was the NR government actively fighting local corruption? I can cite evidence of the latter, but I'm not aware of concrete examples of the former.

Literally everything that happened in the New Republic starting when Borsk Fey'ala was elected President is a canon example of extreme political corruption and incompetence.
 
The point there, though, is that the writing was still better and showed more creativity than what has been showing up in the Disney canon.

This purports to be a page-to-page comparison, only they chose a "page" from Aftermath that is at the very end of a chapter so the page has only one sentence on it. That's pretty ridiculous.
 
It is EU canon for what happened. The Thrawn Trilogy laid out the basic lines, but Bel Iblis' departure was detailed in the short story Differences of Opinion, which is what I was summarizing.

That's not a short story, that's a quarter-page snippet from an RPG supplement book. You know, those supplement books that regularly contained incorrect fluff bits -- made up by the people putting it together purely to add a bit of flavour to the adventures -- and which were, for that reason, only canonical to the extent that they didn't contradict more serious works, such as the novels themselves.

Which brings us to Dark Force Rising, the actual book. It doesn't "lay out the basic lines". It tells us, repeatedly, that Bel Iblis left of his own volition. It's made abundantly clear. So the supplement you're quoting is contradicting the book.

Let me quote the actual novel. I'll bold the relevant sentences:

--------------

You’re wondering why I didn’t join the Alliance,” he said calmly. “Why I chose instead to run my own private war against the Empire.”

--------------

For a long minute the only sound in the speeder was the hum of the repulsorlifts. “What happened?” Lando asked at last.

“To put it bluntly, Mon Mothma began to take over,” Sena said. “Senator Bel Iblis was far better at strategy and tactics than she was, better even than many of the Rebellion’s generals and admirals in those early days. But she had the gift of inspiration, the knack of getting diverse groups and species to work together. Gradually, she became the most visible symbol of the Rebellion, with Organa and the Senator increasingly relegated to the background.”

“Must have been hard for someone like Bel Iblis to take,” Lando murmured.

“Yes, it was,” Sena said. “But you have to understand that it wasn’t just pride that drove him to withdraw his support. Bail Organa had been a strong moderating influence on Mon Mothma—he was one of the few people whom she respected and trusted enough to pay serious attention to. After he was killed in the Death Star’s attack on Alderaan, there was really no one of equal status who could stand up to her. She began to take more and more power to herself; and the Senator began to suspect that she was going to overthrow the Emperor only to set herself up in his place.”

“So he pulled you out of the Alliance and started his own private war against the Empire,” Lando said. “Did you know any of this, Han?”

“Never heard a whisper,” Han shook his head.

“I’m not surprised,” Sena said. “Would you have advertised a defection by someone of the Senator’s stature? Especially in the middle of a war?”

“Probably not,” Han conceded. “I suppose the only surprise is that more groups didn’t back out like you did. Mon Mothma can be pretty overbearing when she wants to be.”


--------------

For a long moment Bel Iblis gazed at him. “I won’t go to Mon Mothma like a beggar pleading to be let in,” he said at last.

You left for good reasons,” Han persisted. “You can come back the same way.”


--------------

Garm Bel Iblis had been one of the early forces behind the consolidation of individual resistance units into the all-encompassing Rebel Alliance, and for years had formed a shadowy triad of leadership with Mon Mothma and Leia’s own adoptive father, Bail Organa. But when Organa died with his people in the Death Star’s attack on Alderaan—and as Mon Mothma began subsequently to draw more and more power to herself—Bel Iblis had left the Alliance and struck out on his own. Since then, he had continued his private war against the Empire...

--------------

“I thought you and Mon Mothma had patched all that up,” Lando said, getting to his feet.

“Oh, we have,” Bel Iblis shrugged, circling the table and heading for the door. “More or less. She’s invited me back into the New Republic, I’ve accepted her leadership, and officially all is well. But old memories fade slowly.” His lip twisted slightly. “And I have to admit that my departure from the Alliance after Alderaan could have been handled more diplomatically. You up on the President’s Guests floor?”


--------------

Note especially the fact that Bel Iblis leaving is depicted as a potential loss of face for Mon Mothma. It's not the story of her kicking out a trouble-maker, but the tale of a defection by a respected man who no longer sees her as a worthy leader.

Note also that Bel Iblis admits that his departure could have been more diplomatic; he admits that as his part of the blame. If Mon kicked him out, the 'lack of diplomacy' would be her fault. It's instead Bel iblis's fault, because he chose to leave.

In summation: quoting a bit of filler from an RPG book is nice, but the actual novel says otherwise. The novel has precedence when it comes to canonicity.


Literally everything that happened in the New Republic starting when Borsk Fey'ala was elected President is a canon example of extreme political corruption and incompetence.
Incompetence, certainly. Corruption, not so much. He was elected. He governed, and he didn't do it very well. But the fact that he's a dick and basically the Chamberlain when it comes to facing the Vong doesn't make the NR corrupt.


This purports to be a page-to-page comparison, only they chose a "page" from Aftermath that is at the very end of a chapter so the page has only one sentence on it. That's pretty ridiculous.
Complaining about the New Republic, and then defending Chuck Wendig. That's definitely the worst case of having one's priorities way out of order that I've seen in 2021 thus far! Attacking all the good things, siding with shittiest of things. o_O

In anyone doesn't deserve a single kind word, it's that jack-ass Wendig, who writes books that are functionally just shit-smeared pages, and then goes on twitter to call all his critics nazis.
 
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In anyone doesn't deserve a single kind word, it's that jack-ass Wendig, who writes books that are functionally just shit-smeared pages, and then goes on twitter to call all his critics nazis.

That seems harsh. I haven't read any of the aftermath trilogy, but my understanding is that Wendig wasn't calling a lot of the shots there. He was given a set of plot points that the story had to hit to set up the new EU, and he did what he could to do that. But they weren't his ideas, and it's those elements, not his overall writing (which is....functional, at worst) that get flak.

That said, his personal behavior online is reprehensible, but that's not really something you can critize the books for.
 
I do wonder, how interested the Sith would be in Anakin. The author-supported interpretation of his prophecy is after all that he's supposed to destroy the Dark Side, something that would make him a walking mark to any Sith, old or new.

As for the sorry state of the Republic and the jedi, I blame that on the fact that there was no enemy for them to worry about.

EDIT: I checked the Legends section of that "Chosen One" prophecy, and it seems to be fairly clear-cut.

Now, because of the fact that the Coruscant Jedi have a deep-seated loathing for anything Sith or non-orthodox Jedi teachings, I do believe that their interpretation of that prophecy is flawed. For all we know, "destroy" means that said incarnation is replaced with a new one that is more balanced. The actual prophecy is here.

That, on the other hand, calls the whole matter of Anakin into doubt, as he wasn't really born during a time of "greatest despair". Even when he was discovered on Tatooine, it was a dispute between a corpo power and Naboo.

many during the sith golden age would consider Bane and his disciples as heretics. so I'm not sure if they'd be too afraid of Anakin, heck some would probably even follow him.
 
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That seems harsh. I haven't read any of the aftermath trilogy, but my understanding is that Wendig wasn't calling a lot of the shots there. He was given a set of plot points that the story had to hit to set up the new EU, and he did what he could to do that. But they weren't his ideas, and it's those elements, not his overall writing (which is....functional, at worst) that get flak.

That said, his personal behavior online is reprehensible, but that's not really something you can critize the books for.
I don't consider it overly harsh. My phrasing is harsh, but that's where his own behaviour comes in. If a decent person writes utter dreck, I won't pretend it's great, but I'll be polite in my criticism. When a complete asshole writes dreck, I'll mince no words.

As far as the actual writing goes: it's terrible. Saying something is fuctional means nothing. The very worst fanfic, if it conveys information to the reader, is still "functional". It's not a high bar to clear. Wendig's writing is just really poor. I've criticised his writing before, on another site, and I think I've got a copy of my remarks available. Let me dig that up:

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The characters are weak and very poorly written. Inconsistent characterisation is an understatement: whatever Wendig was doing, I'm not even sure it really qualifies as "characterisation" at all. It's so bad that even the presence of Wedge -- a character I love -- isn't an improvement. What we get isn't Wedge at all, but something strongly resembling a cardboard prop of the character. One that was made by a mentally deficient pre-schooler. The plot is thin and muddled. There is no logic to it, and time after time, there are events that just seem to happen -- counter to all logic -- because the author couldn't think of anything better. What's worse, though, is that it's all so boring.

The writing, however, is the true issue when it comes to these ghastly abortions that are falsely advertised as "books". Wendig simply cannot write. Even if he'd been brilliant at characterisation, and gifted with the talent to pen positively enchanting plots... his terrible writing would still render it all utterly unreadable. His books are steaming piles of sentence fragments. Even the basics of grammar consistently elude him. He clearly has an aversion to using verbs in a straight-forward manner, which causes such an over-reliance on passive verbs that it would cause brain damage in most editors. (This is presumably why the books appear to be devoid of any decent editing at all.) Also: squinting modifiers, good grief. Enough to kill a herd of fully-grown Nerfs!

Even beyond such errors, his ability to write engaging prose is... non-existent. He has no talent for vivid description, nor for setting a scene, nor even for the competent use of words in any context. All of it literally reads like the sort of shoddy Twilight fanfic where the tween author drafts some horrifyingly stilted dialogue, comes to the realisation that this causes talking heads syndrome, and attempts to solve this by enthousiastically adding some rather incompetent would-be descriptive sentences around the dialogue fragments. Beginning fanfic authors regularly try to make this kind of filler text sound more "interesting" by looking up adjectives that "sound good" and then using (or mis-using) them in the hope that the result comes across as sophisticated. It generally doesn't work out for them, and whatever the method behind Wendig's madness may be... it doesn't work out for him, either. (And he doesn't have the excuse that he's a thirteen-year-old girl writing her first story.)

Finally, there's the weird pet obsessions. For instance: Wendig seems to have added an otherwise redundant character with a beard-- apparently for the sole reason that it allows him to spend a lot of superfluous words on the topic of beards. Which he does, repeatedly, for no discernible reason that could possibly make sense.

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It stands out that none of that is really about the plot. The overall ideas as far as world-building went were shit, but I blame the story group for that. This is all about what he does with what he's given. And what he does is nothing good. compare this to Claudia Gray, and her book Lost Stars. That is set (in part) in the same period, deals with the same mandated world-building, and gives us good writing and believable characters. It's well-paced, too. It does what it can with the premise that the story group mandated.

And that's the difference, here. Wendig shouldn't be excused as someone who did the best with what he was given. Others were given the same, and did much better. He's just a total hack without a single iota of talent. All of which would be forgivable, by the way, if he wasn't also a vengeful cry-bully who habitually slanders people online.
 
On the topic of the new books. If i remeber right there is a book in the new Canon during a wedding everyone starts to fart. I have no words for it.
 
That seems harsh. I haven't read any of the aftermath trilogy, but my understanding is that Wendig wasn't calling a lot of the shots there. He was given a set of plot points that the story had to hit to set up the new EU, and he did what he could to do that. But they weren't his ideas, and it's those elements, not his overall writing (which is....functional, at worst) that get flak.

That said, his personal behavior online is reprehensible, but that's not really something you can critize the books for.

You know what other group of people in history just used the excuse they were just following orders and did horrible shit to millions of people?

COMPNOR.

Why is your logic just like that of the New Order stormtroopers? Are you some sort of NORZI Apologist?
 
Finally, there's the weird pet obsessions. For instance: Wendig seems to have added an otherwise redundant character with a beard-- apparently for the sole reason that it allows him to spend a lot of superfluous words on the topic of beards. Which he does, repeatedly, for no discernible reason that could possibly make sense.
Let's not forget that the father of said "character" later married a Hillary Clinton expy, and he defended that development by claiming that the USA needed a mother figure right now. Said "character" also created a HK-47 expy, using the chassis of a B1 battle-droid as the basis.

In case you haven't cottoned on, that "character" is nothing more than the self-insert of Cuckdig.
 

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