History Split off derail: Discussion of Nazism vs Communism

[King Arts]

Humanity in 40K is coded for Skaven actually. It's a great internal loop subversion by Games Workshop.

People keep asking who the Skaven equivalents are in Warhammer 40K and they are already the biggest faction in that setting.

This is ironically true.

 

[DarthOne]

But this seems false. Nazis aren't the group I hate the most. Oh sure they aren't a group I like. But I hate communists more than Nazis. Though it is close I will tell you that.
I just saw that the Skaven have traits of Nazis(at least the ones we see in modern media with them building wacky super weapons, being ridiculously evil and thinking they are the master race while planning world domination.)

For me, the communists win the ‘which do you hate more’ question. Some of that has due do with the shit we’re facing now, some of it comes from how I consider communism the greater threat of the two due to having more of a wider appeal.

That said, it’s not a very wide gap. It’s like asking which form of brain cancer Id like to have. They both are awful.

 

[stephen the barbarian]

But I hate communists more than Nazis.

same religion, different denominations.

 

[Ixian]

Reds and Greys both go in the same shit bucket as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Aldarion]

Reds and Greys both go in the same shit bucket as far as I'm concerned.

At least Nazis are more honest than the Communists.

 

[TheRejectionist]

At least Nazis are more honest than the Communists.

Goebbels was a shameless harassing pest and barely anyone knows about Lydia Barova...
If that name isn't doesn't sound German, it does at least it tells you he didn't have a honest marriage.

 

[Aldarion]

Goebbels was a shameless harassing pest and barely anyone knows about Lydia Barova...
If that name isn't doesn't sound German, it does at least it tells you he didn't have a honest marriage.

I meant in terms of ideology.

Nazis at least told you they wanted to genocide everyone.
Meanwhile Communists will also genocide you, but will do it while talking about "equality", "human rights", "freedom of the proletariat" and other bullcrap.

 

[mrttao]

Nazis at least told you they wanted to genocide everyone.

No, they didn't.

Nazi official party line was that jews deserve their own country.
Which is why the nazi taxpayer paid to resettle jews into israel.

Haavara Agreement - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Furthermore, the entire argument for the gas showers is that nobody knew there was a genocide going on. The inmates thought they were only being imprisoned and not killed. The gas showers were thus a trick to perform secret executions.

This is also why they didn't just shoot them.
They instead spent extreme amount of money and effort to ship them out of the country to auswitz. (note that all camps captured by USA were proven to not be death camps. rather "reeducation through hard labor camps". only death camps found were in areas conquered by USSR).

This was all to maintain the illusion that there is no genocide and they are enlightened people who just want segregation and nothing else.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

Furthermore, the entire argument for the gas showers is that nobody knew there was a genocide going on. The inmates thought they were only being imprisoned and not killed. The gas showers were thus a trick to perform secret executions.

The gas showers IIRC is no longer what is believed to have happened in the camps, the gas used came from pellets (Zyklon B), or just pumped into the room from engines like carbon monoxide, there wasn't any elaborate shower systems, just big rooms that killed people.

 

[Blasterbot]

what people were exaggerating things purposefully to horrify people after WW2? I am shocked, shocked I say. next you will tell me that Germans aren't born with horns they have to file off and that Disease wiped out most of the natives not the spanish conquistadors going and murdering them all.

 

[mrttao]

what people were exaggerating things purposefully to horrify people after WW2? I am shocked, shocked I say. next you will tell me that Germans aren't born with horns they have to file off and that Disease wiped out most of the natives not the spanish conquistadors going and murdering them all.

how dare you!
The spanish conquistadors went home to home and slaughter 20 million innocent aztecs one by one.

 

[Aldarion]

No, they didn't.

They did, or at least Hitler did.

Mein Kampf - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

'Mein Kampf' as a prelude to genocide

A new documentary and book from Boston College faculty members John and Susan Michalczyk offer a scholarly investigation of Adolf Hitler’s 'Mein Kampf' as a prelude to genocide.

www.bc.edu

Nazi official party line was that jews deserve their own country.
Which is why the nazi taxpayer paid to resettle jews into israel.

I'm not sure that was the "official" line as opposed to one potential "final solution" considered and then rejected.

 

[Blasterbot]

They did, or at least Hitler did.


I'm not sure that was the "official" line as opposed to one potential "final solution" considered and then rejected.

As much as Final can mean no more Jews in that phrase it was also not the first thing they tried. They were wrong and horrible people of course. but they didn't jump straight to lets go and make industrialized murder camps.

 

[mrttao]

They did, or at least Hitler did.

Did you actually even read the page you linked?

The historian Ian Kershaw observed that several passages in Mein Kampf are undeniably of a genocidal nature.[16] Hitler wrote "the nationalization of our masses will succeed only when, aside from all the positive struggle for the soul of our people, their international poisoners are exterminated",[17] and he suggested that, "If at the beginning of the war and during the war twelve or fifteen thousand of these Hebrew corrupters of the nation had been subjected to poison gas, such as had to be endured in the field by hundreds of thousands of our very best German workers of all classes and professions, then the sacrifice of millions at the front would not have been in vain."[18]

So... according to your source. A guy named Ian Kershaw claims that mein kaumpf calls for killing between 12k to 15k people.
which is apparently arguing for genocide now and also 15k = 6000k. well known fact

Also, as you noted yourself. there is a distinction between hitler and the nazies. While hitler was their leader, it does not mean they all agreed on everything.
Hence hitler doing some things in secret. Something that is very common when it comes to govts.

Do you think american's were in favor of project tuskagee?

Tuskegee Syphilis Study - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Obviously not, which is why it was done in secret. and kept away from the public.

 

[Aldarion]

Did you actually even read the page you linked?

Have you even read the passage you had quoted?

That second quote by Hitler talks in the past. In other words, it is merely a World War I "what if", not an exact prescription for the future.

 

[mrttao]

Have you even read the passage you had quoted?

That second quote by Hitler talks in the past. In other words, it is merely a World War I "what if", not an exact prescription for the future.

that undermines your argument even more.
"we could have saved millions if we just killed those 12k to 15k criminals"
is not advocating genocide in the future.

nor does it indicate that anyone who votes for this person is openly pro-genocide.

 

[Agent23]

No, they didn't.

Nazi official party line was that jews deserve their own country.
Which is why the nazi taxpayer paid to resettle jews into israel.

Haavara Agreement - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Furthermore, the entire argument for the gas showers is that nobody knew there was a genocide going on. The inmates thought they were only being imprisoned and not killed. The gas showers were thus a trick to perform secret executions.

This is also why they didn't just shoot them.
They instead spent extreme amount of money and effort to ship them out of the country to auswitz. (note that all camps captured by USA were proven to not be death camps. rather "reeducation through hard labor camps". only death camps found were in areas conquered by USSR).

This was all to maintain the illusion that there is no genocide and they are enlightened people who just want segregation and nothing else.

Yeah, no one ever mentions the real genocide the Austrian degenerate wanted to do, which was exterminate all the Slavs.

Or that something like 40 million of us died in that war.

 

[Free-Stater 101]

At least Nazis are more honest than the Communists.

No, the Nazi's weren't honest at all, they were in fact the biggest liars of their time or all of time, the greatest among those yarns they spun being that they ever cared about things like property rights, Christian religion or Tradition.

If they cared about tradition, they would have reinstated the Kaiser, if they cared about religion, they shouldn't have subverted and derided the Church, if they cared for property rights then why could they arrest you or have you killed on it for no reason before confiscating it on a whim?

 

[DarthOne]

No, the Nazi's weren't honest at all, they were in fact the biggest liars of their time or all of time, the greatest among those yarns they spun being that they ever cared about things like property rights, Christian religion or Tradition.

If they cared about tradition, they would have reinstated the Kaiser, if they cared about religion, they shouldn't have subverted and derided the Church, if they cared for property rights then why could they arrest you or have you killed on it for no reason before confiscating it on a whim?

"There is a man alone, without family, without children, without God....He builds legions but he doesn't build a nation. A nation is created by families, a religion, tradition: it is made up out of the hearts of mothers, the wisdom of fathers, the joy and the exuberance of children. [Of Germany under Hitler he says]....an all-swallowing State, disdainful of human dignities and the ancient structure of our race, sets itself up in place of everything else. And the man who, alone, incorporates in himself this whole State, has neither a God to honour nor a dynasty to conserve, nor a past to consult....
For a few months I was inclined to believe in National Socialism. I thought of it as a necessary fever. And I was gratified to see that there were, associated with it for a time, some of the wisest and most outstanding Germans. But these, one by one, he has got rid of or even killed....He has left nothing but a bunch of shirted gangsters....
This man could bring home victories to our people each year without bringing them...glory....But of our Germany, which was a nation of poets and musicians and artists and soldiers, he has made a nation of hysterics and hermits, engulfed in a mob and led by a thousand liars or fanatics...."

-Kaiser Wilhelm II, telling it like it is about Hitler in 1938

 

[Aldarion]

No, the Nazi's weren't honest at all, they were in fact the biggest liars of their time or all of time, the greatest among those yarns they spun being that they ever cared about things like property rights, Christian religion or Tradition.

If they cared about tradition, they would have reinstated the Kaiser, if they cared about religion, they shouldn't have subverted and derided the Church, if they cared for property rights then why could they arrest you or have you killed on it for no reason before confiscating it on a whim?

I didn't say they were honest, period. I said they were more honest than Communists, which is a fact. Honestly, if you think Nazis are the "biggest liars of all of time", you really need to brush up on your history.

And yes, Hitler was quite open about genocide:

Hitler's prophecy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

30 January 1939 Reichstag speech - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

When Communists genocided you, they said it was for your own good. Nazis at least admitted they hated your guts, even if they attempted to spin a yarn about how it was for somebody else's good.

Not that "more honest than Communists" is something to brag about, mind you.

Also, when did Nazis say that they cared about tradition and religion? Nazis were quite open about their progressive ideas, IIRC, them "caring about tradition" I believe is merely much later Communist gaslighting attempting to disassociate Nazis from socialism. And they hated Christianity.

As for property rights, again, Hitler was quite open about being a socialist. I mean, just read this excerpt of his speech:

I tell German industry for example, "You have to produce such and such now." I then return to this in the Four-Year Plan. If German industry were to answer me, "We are not able to", then I would say to it, "Fine, then I will take that over myself, but it must be done." But if industry tells me, "We will do that", then I am very glad that I do not need to take that on.

EDIT:

that undermines your argument even more.
"we could have saved millions if we just killed those 12k to 15k criminals"
is not advocating genocide in the future.

nor does it indicate that anyone who votes for this person is openly pro-genocide.

No, it doesn't. But neither is it an open denial of plans to genocide anyone.