So...NATO is expanding...

WolfBear

Well-known member
But why would either of the parties agree to this plan? Most of the socialist Latin America is poorer than Turkey and the local socialists are quite insistent on being the ones in charge of the party. Kurds would be coming there, to a foreign land they don't care about, with no power, no weapons, no domestic support, and no hope of getting any wealthier out of the deal.

The question is, how much Russia cares? Its not like in the era of nuclear saber rattling and cultural malaise of the west NATO is just suddenly going to send divisions either way with dunno, suddenly found devotion to the Blood God protecting them from both the fear and somehow also the reality of nuclear warfare.

It would still be a huge improvement for the Syrian Kurds, no? Just not for the Turkish Kurds. Syria is much poorer than Turkey is, after all.

Completely agreed. NATO certainly has no plans of ever waging any offensive wars against Russia.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
It would still be a huge improvement for the Syrian Kurds, no? Just not for the Turkish Kurds. Syria is much poorer than Turkey is, after all.
Well, yeah, but then gain, Turkey is considerably richer than places like Venezuela, Nicaragua or Honduras.
By GDP PPP per capita:


Mexico: $22,000
Brazil: $17,000
Syria: $6,000

So, moving to Mexico or Brazil would very likely cause a Syrian Kurd's income to triple or quadruple. Even if some of their earnings were taxed extra as compensation for their immigration to Mexico or Brazil, their income should still double or so.
"Our president praises Pinochet" Brazil would sure love some leftist immigrants :D
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Well, yeah, but then gain, Turkey is considerably richer than places like Venezuela, Nicaragua or Honduras.

In comparison to Mexico or Brazil, Turkey isn't that much wealthier. And is Turkey actually willing to have open borders for Syrian Kurds when it doesn't like its own Kurds very much?
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
In comparison to Mexico or Brazil, Turkey isn't that much wealthier.
Those are hardly the most leftist countries in the region.
And is Turkey actually willing to have open borders for Syrian Kurds when it doesn't like its own Kurds very much?
Apparently not, hence they are making a "security zone" instead:
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Those are hardly the most leftist countries in the region.

Apparently not, hence they are making a "security zone" instead:

Mexico sends a lot of leftist immigrants to the US, no?

And hence Turkey is not a realistic option for them. They need an alternative destination to emigrate to instead, for those of them who actually want to emigrate.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
My main issue with the Turkey-Swedish Impasse isn't so much that Sweden Is Being Coerced to Stop Supporting the PKK (whatever that means) but more on Free Speech Grounds.

It's a tricky situation since instinctively I'm thinking Sweden's private media or whatever should be able to support almost whatever because of the value of Free Speech. But there is an exception (since no right is absolute, I guess) in regards to Terrorism with like ISIS or Al Qaeda and from Turkey's point of view, the PKK is allegedly on that level from their POV.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
My main issue with the Turkey-Swedish Impasse isn't so much that Sweden Is Being Coerced to Stop Supporting the PKK (whatever that means) but more on Free Speech Grounds.

It's a tricky situation since instinctively I'm thinking Sweden's private media or whatever should be able to support almost whatever because of the value of Free Speech. But there is an exception (since no right is absolute, I guess) in regards to Terrorism with like ISIS or Al Qaeda and from Turkey's point of view, the PKK is allegedly on that level from their POV.

What about if Sweden will allow support for pro-PKK speech just so long as the PKK activities involved are actually peaceful? Yes, I know, not ideal because I do think that one should be able to support a violent independence struggle as well: For instance, the 1950s Algerian one, which I would have supported with reservations (the reservations are about purposely targeting civilians) due to my own desire to keep France European.
 

Marduk

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Moderator
Staff Member
Mexico sends a lot of leftist immigrants to the US, no?
Leftist by US standards. Not so leftist by the standards of, say, Venezuela or Bolivia.
And hence Turkey is not a realistic option for them. They need an alternative destination to emigrate to instead, for those of them who actually want to emigrate.
They could join their brethren in Iraq. Sure, they would be poorer, but it is a weak state so they do have a decent chance of hammering out a considerable degree of autonomy, and it is more or less their home region.
My main issue with the Turkey-Swedish Impasse isn't so much that Sweden Is Being Coerced to Stop Supporting the PKK (whatever that means) but more on Free Speech Grounds.

It's a tricky situation since instinctively I'm thinking Sweden's private media or whatever should be able to support almost whatever because of the value of Free Speech. But there is an exception (since no right is absolute, I guess) in regards to Terrorism with like ISIS or Al Qaeda and from Turkey's point of view, the PKK is allegedly on that level from their POV.
The even stronger argument here is that PKK is officially recognized as terrorists by both the EU and USA, so Sweden's behavior was always in quite a gray area there, its just that until now no one had both a reason and a way to press them much on this, as Sweden was not in NATO, and Turkey was not in the EU.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Leftist by US standards. Not so leftist by the standards of, say, Venezuela or Bolivia.

They could join their brethren in Iraq. Sure, they would be poorer, but it is a weak state so they do have a decent chance of hammering out a considerable degree of autonomy, and it is more or less their home region.

The even stronger argument here is that PKK is officially recognized as terrorists by both the EU and USA, so Sweden's behavior was always in quite a gray area there, its just that until now no one had both a reason and a way to press them much on this.

Maybe so ... for now!

True enough. That said, though, Iraq has the potential to become wealthy since in spite of its low human capital it does have a lot of oil. But it would need better institutions and especially to aggressively deal with its corruption problem.

That makes sense, to be honest. Ideally, Kurds should have their own state, but I do want the Straits to be in US allied hands, so ...
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
"Our president praises Pinochet" Brazil would sure love some leftist immigrants :D

Brazil previously had leftist Lula as President, so ...


I don't think he will and lose the leverage he has.

There's always the option of a separate bilateral US-Turkish alliance afterwards, you know? ;)

 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder

I don't think he will and lose the leverage he has.

I hope Turkey is telling Turkey about this!

Just read an article today how Turkey is considering Eurofighters as an alternative to F-16's.

 

Sailor.X

Cold War Veteran
Founder
How exactly can Russia talk about deescalation when it is only escalating the situation?

I am gonna go ahead and say it. Their Nuke force is shoddy. Countries with functional Nuclear Weapons don't have to say every 3 or 4 days they will use Nukes for this or use Nukes for that. When your military equipment is falling apart on the Battlefield due to poor maintenance. That just tells me your ICBMs in Bumfuck Nowhere Siberia. Which private Conscriptivic and his low moral buddies tasked with doing maintenance job they have no intention to do. Are all nonfunctional. At this point stop giving Russian military maintenance the benefit of the doubt. It's all suspect.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
The Turkey-Finland-Sweden deal in full text:
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FWXGCNFWYAAi3vE
 
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